The Coli Where we rank Kyle Lowry over Jason Kidd.. Scust @malta

[G-Zeus]

I went to Nets/Knicks games regularly when I was young'n (Kidd was one of my favorite players growing up), and I watched the league religiously back then too. Futhermore when I first identified that Rondo was a fraud (roughly about 8-9 years ago) - I thought to myself, hang on a minute - his play is strangely familiar. Then I went over a ton of tape of old Nets games and some Suns games when Kidd was playing, and much to my surprise the very thing I criticized Rondo for, Kidd was guilty of too. Now obviously Kidd was a better player than Rondo ever was, but the principles of why I saw Rondo's game for what it was, applied to Kidd. That started a chain of events where I started looking at all my childhood sporting heroes in a different light. One that wasn't of nostalgia and revisionism, but one that was drenched completely in reality.

It was at the point, I realized I really didn't know the game like I thought I did. And ever since I've been trying to look for the answers - I don't always have them but it doesn't stop me from looking. I don't like to generalize but most of the folk on this board are still stuck where I was a decade ago in terms of viewing the game. Still at square one.

dude.. what the fukk


you really went over a ton of old tapes to compare their styles?

 

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

dude.. what the fukk


you really went over a ton of old tapes to compare their styles?

This was years and years ago. I fooled myself (albeit I was only young when I watched him during the early '00s) into thinking Kidd was better than he actually was. You'd be amazed at how you break childhood memories of shyt once you go back and see them in plain view when you have a developed brain.

 

[G-Zeus]

This was years and years ago. I fooled myself (albeit I was only young when I watched him during the early '00s) into thinking Kidd was better than he actually was. You'd be amazed at how you break childhood memories of shyt once you go back and see them in plain view when you have a developed brain.

i do that all the time... on youtube....

but why go through a ton of tape breh.. takes 3-4 games top to see similarities... once you overdo it.. bias sets in.

I do however appreciate your dedication to provide proofs.. but breh.... that's overkill

 

[Mantis Toboggan M.D.]

This was years and years ago. I fooled myself (albeit I was only young when I watched him during the early '00s) into thinking Kidd was better than he actually was. You'd be amazed at how you break childhood memories of shyt once you go back and see them in plain view when you have a developed brain.

That's a rabbit hole we should rarely jump into unless the most absurd shyt is being claimed.

 

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

how does rondo and kidd play alike? Kidd wasn't ball dominant and fishing out assist like rondo was. I guess the only thing they have in common is both were bad shooters (but kidd improved as he got older). Both were great passer but kidd was better defender and a much better leader than rondo was.

It wasn't so much that they played alike (although they did have a lot of similarities), it was their perceived impacts on the game and what actual impact they had on the game.

It was the fact Rondo wasn't a strong scorer, and folk would overcompensate by propping up his ability to run an offense, rebounding, defense and intangibles. It was the fact that Rondo was actually a detriment to his team's offense when he wasn't a threat to score/shoot - not only not attracting defensive attention away from his teammates (giving them more room to work with and therefore easier scoring opportunities), not only being too predictable for the opposition to defend (defending him as if he were going to pass nine times out of 10, instead of defending him as if he were going to shoot/pass at any given time), not only not capatilizing on scoring flows/runs (basketball is a game of runs, therefore you must maximize the scoring potential of those runs), but basically everything that goes into putting your team in the best possible position of winning through offensive play.

The damaging effects a main-ball handler has on his team's offense when he isn't a reliable/efficient and/or aggressive scorer are infinite. Scoring is the most valuable and impactful asset that a main ball-handler/offensive anchor can have.

 

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

i do that all the time... on youtube....

but why go through a ton of tape breh.. takes 3-4 games top to see similarities... once you overdo it.. bias sets in.

I do however appreciate your dedication to provide proofs.. but breh.... that's overkill

Actually it's quite the opposite. I needed a decent sample size over an extended period of time to see how he played. 3-4 games wouldn't have given me a clear picture, at all. I went in with absolutely no bias - well I tried not to. The very fact I came out the other side with a different opinion to what I went in with should tell you everything.

 

[G-Zeus]

Actually it's quite the opposite. I needed a decent sample size over an extended period of time to see how he played. 3-4 games wouldn't have given me a clear picture, at all. I went in with absolutely no bias - well I tried not to. The very fact I came out the other side with a different opinion to what I went in with should tell you everything.

i will be honnest and say i never thought of doing a comparison between the two as far as play style goes.... but kidd carried a good offensive rating to defensive rating everywhere he went.. to me.. he is worlds above Rondo.. one can argue stats dont say everything.. but stats says Kidd is one of those incredible player who has so much more to offer on the court than scoring.

IMHO neither Lowry or Rondo compares

 

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

That's a rabbit hole we should rarely jump into unless the most absurd shyt is being claimed.

Hell, if I didn't do that I'd still be stuck on stupid and not even know it. Which hey, I maybe still stupid now ['the more you know, the more you know you don't know' seems to be ringing in my ear], but at least I know that I'm not as stupid as I once was. The younger me would've gone to the grave believing Jordan could've averaged 50 ppg today. The current me just wants to slap anybody upside the head who believes that. I guess that's all we can hope for in this life - to die without a sore head.

 

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

i will be honnest and say i never thought of doing a comparison between the two as far as play style goes.... but kidd carried a good offensive rating to defensive rating everywhere he went.. to me.. he is worlds above Rondo.. one can argue stats dont say everything.. but stats says Kidd is one of those incredible player who has so much more to offer on the court than scoring.

IMHO neither Lowry or Rondo compares

Seems like I need to post this again.

Than you should know better. You don't have any excuses. At all.

This couldn't be further from the truth, and I'm doubting if you actually know both of their respective game's at all. Past the fact that "making guys better" is an overcompensating term to begin with, the principles behind it can be applied directly to Lowry's approach to the game and skillset - he's an incredible playmaker/passer, he can identify when players need the ball and when they're hot, he is one of the best PGs at balancing when to pass/shoot, he commands a ton of defensive attention with the ball in hand (opening the floor up for the rest of his teammates and giving them more room to work with), he's effective without the ball, he's an outstanding M2M/team defender and he can carry a lead scoring workload to take pressure off his teammates. Whereas Kidd crippled his teams' offenses because of his lack of scoring ability and his reluctance to shoot. His teammates dealt with more defensive attention because he was hesistant to score; therefore fukking up the overall flow of the offense. And in case you haven't read this -

94/95 - playing next to McCloud and Jackson - ended up with the 15th ranked offense
95/96 - relatively the same personnel - finished with the 19th ranked offense.
96/97 DAL - he only played 22 games - finished with the 28th ranked offense
96/97 PHO - he only played 33 games (started only 22), KJ was the one leading the team that season and they had the 6th ranked offense.
97/98 - Kidd took over starting duties, with relatively the same personnel and they ended with the 12th ranked offense (Nash had superior on-court points production than Kidd - propping up the points per 100 possessions - however, keep in mind it was mostly against second units)
98/99 - lockout season, 50 games, few extra changes to the personnel and they end up with the 4th ranked offense - no coincidence it was statistically Kidd's best shooting season.
99/00 - few extra personnel changes, most notably Penny, and they had the 12th ranked offense
00/01 - Penny was injured for pretty much the entire season, and they had the 22nd ranked offense

2001/02 Nets - 17th ranked offfense (Kidd averaged 37 minutes)
2002/03 Nets - 18th ranked offense (Kidd averaged 37 minutes)
2003/04 Nets - 25th ranked offense (Kidd averaged 36 minutes)
2004/05 Nets - 26th ranked offense (Kidd averaged 36 minutes)
2005/06 Nets - 25th ranked offense (Kidd averaged 37 minutes)
2006/07 Nets - 16th ranked offense (Kidd averaged 36 minutes)
2007/08 Nets - 25th ranked offense (Kidd averaged 36 minutes)

Across 14-15 seasons when Kidd was the leader of the team, he only orchestrated ONE top-10 offense. I can divide. That's one great offense every 14 season average and that's so....


This is horrible, horrible logic. The PG position is 1000000000000x deeper now, than it was during Kidd's prime. Of course there's gonna be more PGs who're better than Lowry today, than there were when Kidd was at his peak.

 

[G-Zeus]

Seems like I need to post this again.

i am talking about HIS PERSONAL Ortg and Drtg not his teams

that means specifically and only when he is on the floor.

 

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

i am talking about HIS PERSONAL Ortg and Drtg not his teams

that means specifically and only when he is on the floor.

Let me ask you a question, do you understand how ORTG works when it's applied to a player? Because I don't think you seem to know how all this works.

 

[Walt]

I don't have a dog in this fight at all, but I do recall when J. Kidd was viewed as a perennial loser with no jumpshot. That shift to the East when it was at its weakest just as the West became a monster did wonders for his legacy. I really, really liked Kidd as a player too. I also don't like Lowry at all. Just think Kidd's legacy is a lot like Reggie Miller's in terms of narratives and numbers not matching up, exaggeration of impact, and the privileging on a couple seasons over the total body of work.

 

[Tha Gawd Amen]

The Coli's obsession with "traditional" PG's is scary when history shows that a scoring PG with decent playmaking has and will be more valuable to team sucess. Seems like people don't understand how much a detriment not being able to score has on the other players on the team, regardless if that player can get 10 assists or not. His defensive versatility had more to do with his "success" in New Jersey more than his offensive abilities honestly.

 

[O.T.I.S.]

I don't have a dog in this fight at all, but I do recall when J. Kidd was viewed as a perennial loser with no jumpshot. That shift to the East when it was at its weakest just as the West became a monster did wonders for his legacy. I really, really liked Kidd as a player too. I also don't like Lowry at all. Just think Kidd's legacy is a lot like Reggie Miller's in terms of narratives and numbers not matching up, exaggeration of impact, and the privileging on a couple seasons over the total body of work.

This might be 1000% percent true...


But compared to Lowry

I'm gonna just leave this here:

Jason Kidd vs. Kyle Lowry Comparison

 

[Poitier]

Seems like people don't understand how much a detriment not being able to score has on the other players on the team

Only if you're ball dominant....which Jason Kidd was not. Find a better argument.