The Coli Where we rank Kyle Lowry over Jason Kidd.. Scust @malta

[ManBearPig]

 

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

@G-Zeus

If we go by the definition of "amount of points scored per 100 possessions based on him being on the floor" than Kidd's ORTGs read as follows:

102 ORTG in 1999/00 - #52 ranked guard in the league
97 ORTG in 2000/01 - #103 ranked guard in the league
102.9 ORTG in 2001/02 - #56 ranked guard in the league
103 ORTG in 2003/02 - #45 ranked guard in the league
101 ORTG in 2003/04 - #62 ranked guard in the league
103 ORTG in 2004/05 - #71 ranked guard in the league

I don't know what definition of good you have, but that's certainly not good by any measure.

 

[thatrapsfan]

@G-Zeus

If we go by the definition of "amount of points scored per 100 possessions based on him being on the floor" than Kidd's ORTGs read as follows:

102 ORTG in 1999/00 - #52 ranked guard in the league
97 ORTG in 2000/01 - #103 ranked guard in the league
102.9 ORTG in 2001/02 - #56 ranked guard in the league
103 ORTG in 2003/02 - #45 ranked guard in the league
101 ORTG in 2003/04 - #62 ranked guard in the league
103 ORTG in 2004/05 - #71 ranked guard in the league

I don't know what definition of good you have, but that's certainly not good by any measure.

How did the top point guards rank that year?

 

[O.T.I.S.]

It makes me want to vomit because the whole argument is going over your head, and you think it's a comparison of vague career achievements.

Career achievements that despite being in the league 11 years, Lowry will never come close to achieving

 

[G-Zeus]

@G-Zeus

If we go by the definition of "amount of points scored per 100 possessions based on him being on the floor" than Kidd's ORTGs read as follows:

102 ORTG in 1999/00 - #52 ranked guard in the league
97 ORTG in 2000/01 - #103 ranked guard in the league
102.9 ORTG in 2001/02 - #56 ranked guard in the league
103 ORTG in 2003/02 - #45 ranked guard in the league
101 ORTG in 2003/04 - #62 ranked guard in the league
103 ORTG in 2004/05 - #71 ranked guard in the league

I don't know what definition of good you have, but that's certainly not good by any measure.

he could be ranked 99.. as long as his ORTG is better than his DRTG than he is doing great.

obviously if he was a scoring machine, his ORTG would be much higher.. but that does not translate to WINS if the DRTG is also equally high.

 

[Jplaya2023]

Rondo and Kidd were VERY similar players. Both are pass-first PGs who, when necessary, could take on a scoring load. Both exhibited defensive prowess and were walking triple-doubles.

How do you not see that?

kidd wasn't stat paddin like rondo does. Like i said besides them not having reliable jumpers i'm not seeing it all things considered. Kidd wasn't out padding numbers and pounding the ball like rondo

 

[75 Others]

So when it's all said and done, Kyle Lowry will be ranked higher than Jason Kidd??


Just say Lowry will also be ranked higher than John Stockton and save us all the potential of laughter

 

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

pretty simple.. if your ORTG is above your DRTG then your doing good O is how many point is scored while your on the floor.. D is how many is allowed.. that simple..

That's not how it works. Lord have mercy.

since all you need 1 point to win.. its not a necessity of how BIG the difference is.. if your in the positive, it means you incline on the winning side...that said..his career is ORTG114 and DRTG103

Where in the hell are you getting these numbers from?

now i would like to know what website uses a different algorithm on the per 100.. seems like this should be a singular formula

Both NBA.com and Bbal Ref calculate different things - one estimates how much a player scores per 100 scoring possesions, the other calculates just how much a team scores per 100 possesions when that player is on the floor.

 

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

So when it's all said and done, Kyle Lowry will be ranked higher than Jason Kidd??


Just say Lowry will also be ranked higher than John Stockton and save us all the potential of laughter

Career achievements that despite being in the league 11 years, Lowry will never come close to achieving

It's not comparing their careers, or saying that Lowry is ranked ahead of him all-time (Lowry will NOT be ranked ahead of him when it's all said and done). It's just comparing them when they were at their respective peaks. How many times does this need to be said?

 

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

he could be ranked 99.. as long as his ORTG is better than his DRTG than he is doing great.

That's not how it works. At all. You're so off the mark that I don't even see where the mark is.

 

[Tha Gawd Amen]

Because his roster only had finishers and he got those finishers as good a shot on a routine basis as possible given the badly-constructed rosters. And it matters that his usage wasn't crazy high because it shows he still managed to not dominate the ball despite being put in a role that could have easily called for it. Don't you think that shows IQ on Kidd's part? Seems like the issue is more so with the rosters that were put around him.

I'm not questioning his IQ or passing ability. It's the fact he offered nothing more offensively than his superior playmaking ability. His USG rate being low compared to league leaders at the time had a lot to do with him always looking to pass the ball because he had no offensive game outside of that. He couldn't have a usage rate compared to Iverson because his offensive game wouldn't allow him to do so. He had a similar usage rate to Rondo who is considered a ball dominant player also.

 

[75 Others]

It's not comparing their careers, or saying that Lowry is ranked ahead of him all-time (Lowry will NOT be ranked ahead of him when it's all said and done). It's just comparing them when they were at their respective peaks. How many times does this need to be said?

At JKidds peak he was making Kerry Kittles and Lucious Harris respectable in the league and washing Paul Pierce and Antoine Walker in the postseason, what has Lowry done?? but but his scoring

So in their prime for a season, you taking Lowry over JKidd??

 

[G-Zeus]

That's not how it works. Lord haver mercy.



Where in the hell are you getting these numbers from?

Both NBA.com and Bbal Ref calculate different things - one estimates how much a player scores per 100 scoring possesions,

its exactly how it works.. number of points scored... numbers of points allowed


its from basketball reference per 100..regualar season
Jason Kidd Stats | Basketball-Reference.com

move your mouse over for definitions..

i will be honnest and say i never got to the per 100 from NBA.com on players.. please share how you get there.

 

[Mantis Toboggan M.D.]

At JKidds peak he was making Kerry Kittles and Lucious Harris respectable in the league and washing Paul Pierce and Antoine Walker in the postseason, what has Lowry done?? but but his scoring

So in their prime for a season, you taking Lowry over JKidd??

Yeah. Prime kidd couldn't shoot from deep or finish at the rim. In today's league, teams would pack the paint on him and sag off while daring him to shoot and focus on making sure his teammates don't get open. They'd basically have a 4 on 5 power play where it's possible 1-2 of those 4 guys can't shoot from deep either. It's the same shyt that happens with bricky Rubio and why the timberwolves offense has had problems for years. Same shyt people do when guarding rondo.

 

[Poitier]

I'm not questioning his IQ or passing ability. It's the fact he offered nothing more offensively than his superior playmaking ability. His USG rate being low compared to league leaders at the time had a lot to do with him always looking to pass the ball because he had no offensive game outside of that. He couldn't have a usage rate compared to Iverson because his offensive game wouldn't allow him to do so. He had a similar usage rate to Rondo who is considered a ball dominant player also.

I just don't agree. He had no one on his team who could dribble a basketball on the move nor find guys while on the move and thus that made him VITAL as the key cog to their offense. Saying his only value on offense was playmaking underscores roster construction.

Discarding post-prime years, its no coincidence the bulk of his lowest usage years coincide with playing with other playmakers. This is nothing like Rondo who has had the privilege of playing with playmakers and yet has never shown the ability to adapt to role.