I'll take the Kidd on the Knicks
The Coli Where we rank Kyle Lowry over Jason Kidd.. Scust @malta
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waltthizzney
All Star
yall should be comparing lowry to mike james
Gil Scott-Heroin
Veteran
Please, please, please don't waste my time or your time with these pointless talking points.
The PGs during Kidd's prime were the likes of Marbury, an over-the-hill Payton, Cassell, Van Exel, Francis etc - players that averaged from very good to average. The PGs during Lowry's prime are the likes of Curry, Westbrook, CP3, Irving, Lillard etc - the greatest era of PGs in NBA history, and not just the greatest collection of PGs, but players who're amongst the best players in the league, at a time where the talent, in general, is at an all-time high.
A Prime Kidd would be an afterthought today when discussing the best PGs, whereas Lowry would be in the conversation for best PGs during the early 00s.
Those Nets squads won because of their team defense, not because of Kidd's magical offensive ability (that defied his factual inefficiency) that made his teammates/team better - contrary to popular belief he actually marginalized his team's offense, during the conference's weakest period of the modern era:
2001/02 Nets - 17th ranked offfense (Kidd averaged 37 minutes)
2002/03 Nets - 18th ranked offense (Kidd averaged 37 minutes)
2003/04 Nets - 25th ranked offense (Kidd averaged 36 minutes)
2004/05 Nets - 26th ranked offense (Kidd averaged 36 minutes)
2005/06 Nets - 25th ranked offense (Kidd averaged 37 minutes)
2006/07 Nets - 16th ranked offense (Kidd averaged 36 minutes)
2007/08 Nets - 25th ranked offense (Kidd averaged 36 minutes)
If Lowry/Raptors faced the same type of EC competition that Kidd faced in the early 00s, the Raptors already would've been to at least one Finals. Remind me what top-3 player OAT, in his prime, was Kidd coming up against in the early 00s?
I don't know how many times I need to repeat this but I'm not talking about their career accolades, simply comparing their respective play in the primes.
Not a chance.Replace Lowry with Kidd on the Raptor's these past two years and no he wouldn't have beaten LeBron. This year?Maybe.
Raptors lack a true #1 option to go toe-to-toe with LeBron; they're basically a team with two #2/#3 options masquerading as co-#1s, and a bunch of role players. How's Kidd going to be the "maybe" difference, when he was never that type of player, and came up short in the postseason against worse teams/players?
Yes.Let's flip it, does Lowry go to back to back Finals with those Nets squads?
Your memory is deceiving you if you don't remember how pathetic the East was back then, or how the Nets won games predominately because of their team defense.
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Gil Scott-Heroin
Veteran
bringing up Olympic stats
Y'all missed the point of me bringing up those #s, it was just to illustrate that Lowry has a high-level of defensive impact as a PG, and isn't a scrub on that end like it was insinuated. Kidd was the better defender, but the margin isn't as great as folks are making it out to be.
All the more reason why folks don't have enough knowledge to speak on this player comparison because they don't even have a general understanding of Lowry's defensive ability.
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Lord Bison
Superstar
Anyone who says Lowry > Kidd clearly didn't watch 90's basketball. The GOAT era of all time 
So let me get this straight: Lowry at his best, a better shooter and scorer, no slouch in the rebounding/defense department for a point guard, and while not near the passer Kidd was, still a good floor general, is nowhere close to the player that Kidd was? 
I like J Kidd but prime for prime or peak for peak, I don't see why it's not arguable.
I like J Kidd but prime for prime or peak for peak, I don't see why it's not arguable.That's not the point. I'm comparing what Kidd did in his era to what Lowry is doing in his. Players don't control their competition or when they played.
Why are you moving the goalposts to contemplating what the Raptors would do?
My question is what would Lowry do on those Nets teams? Without the #2/#3 level of a Derozan? Playing with a bunch of guys who couldn't shoot or create their own shot? Being the main target of the other team's defensive game plan night after night?
I don't know how you separate the two. That's HOW we judge players in basketball.
If not for career accolades Dwight >>>> Russell.
Mind you I tend to agree with Lowry > Kidd, but that's part of why there's so nuch push back.
This Cavs team isn't very good. Toronto SHOULD win the series. I'm at a loss for how it's playing out to this point. Lowry started 7-7 and then disappeared the entire second half. When his shot isn't falling it's like he's not even out there. If nothing else Kidd was able to make an impact on the game without scoring . I've yet to see that from Lowry.
To be fair I tried to block out those years, but unfortunately the stench remains. Knicks didn't even make the playoffs the years the Nets went to the Finals.Your memory is deceiving you if you don't remember how pathetic the East was back then, or how the Nets won games predominately because of their team defense.
Perhaps, just feels disingenuous to base that assertion on statistics that we don't have from Kidd's era. We have much better metrics to examine a player's defensive value nowadays. I know Lowry is really good defensively, just hard to compare to Kidd as we're dealing with incomplete information and using Olympic numbers is just silly.
Gil Scott-Heroin
Veteran
My brotha, that's been my point from the VERY beginning. I have never said or even suggested that Lowry has better/more accolades, the better career, or that he deserved to be ranked ahead of Kidd on an all-time list. All I made was a simple statement regarding their respective abilities in their primes. That's all - nothing more.
I don't know how you separate the two. That's HOW we judge players in basketball.
If not for career accolades Dwight >>>> Russell.
Mind you I tend to agree with Lowry > Kidd, but that's part of why there's so nuch push back.
If you agree with Lowry > Kidd in this context, there's no reason for us to continue this discussion/argument.
Gil Scott-Heroin
Veteran
Nothing disingenuous about it. I just used it to illustrate a point regarding his defensive ability (in response to someone who thinks he's a scrub on that end), hence why I said this in my post -
"The difference in their respective defensive abilities isn't as large as you're making it out to be (yes, Kidd was the better defender, but PGs can only have so much impact on that end - it's not a 50/50 type thing). You must remember before Lowry's offensive improvement, he was primarily a defensive player (he was known for his playmaking/defense) - there's a reason why he was one of the most impactful defenders for Team USA in the last Olympics."
Don't take the #s in a literal manner, as if I'm comparing their defensive capabilities in an exact manner (plus I did post other links of coaches' opinions of his defense), they were just used to layer my general point. If you think Lowry is "really good defensively" then there's no need for you to contend my point - because you're inadvertently agreeing with it.
Gil Scott-Heroin
Veteran
Because, unfortunately, we don't have reasonable, level-headed, knowledgeable heads like you on this board.So let me get this straight: Lowry at his best, a better shooter and scorer, no slouch in the rebounding/defense department for a point guard, and while not near the passer Kidd was, still a good floor general, is nowhere close to the player that Kidd was?
its silly to use the argument about Nets going to 2 Finals and Raps going to none. the x-factor is Lebron. take him away and Raps prob wouldve been in Finals 3x by now. lol. Nets wouldve never gotten past the Cavs of the past 3 years. but things dont work that way.
Kidd has had the better career without question. that was largely due to his hype coming out of HS/College. he got a much faster start in the pros. He is also taller and more athletic than Lowry which made him a better rebounder. His passing is what truly set him apart though. Lowry undersized and injury hampered.
if you plug Lowry in anywhere in Kidd's era or before he would be a great PG. when you look at what they did in comparison....its almost a trade off statistically. Lowry has been almost as good as Kidd in an era with much better PGs. I would say Lowry has been underrated and Kidd somewhat overrated, based on the success of those Nets teams during that period.
Kidd has had the better career without question. that was largely due to his hype coming out of HS/College. he got a much faster start in the pros. He is also taller and more athletic than Lowry which made him a better rebounder. His passing is what truly set him apart though. Lowry undersized and injury hampered.
if you plug Lowry in anywhere in Kidd's era or before he would be a great PG. when you look at what they did in comparison....its almost a trade off statistically. Lowry has been almost as good as Kidd in an era with much better PGs. I would say Lowry has been underrated and Kidd somewhat overrated, based on the success of those Nets teams during that period.
lowry is a consistent playoff choker who puts up numbers in the regular season. If your gonna look at stats lowry has "prettier" stats but you got to watch them play. Lowry wouldn't sniff an allstar game if he played during kidd's prime years, and if he made it he would be a replacement.
Ineedmoney504
SOHH ICEY...WE EATIN
If I’m not mistaken didn’t Steph Knicks play the nets one year in the first round?That's not the point. I'm comparing what Kidd did in his era to what Lowry is doing in his. Players don't control their competition or when they played.
Why are you moving the goalposts to contemplating what the Raptors would do?
My question is what would Lowry do on those Nets teams? Without the #2/#3 level of a Derozan? Playing with a bunch of guys who couldn't shoot or create their own shot? Being the main target of the other team's defensive game plan night after night?
I don't know how you separate the two. That's HOW we judge players in basketball.
If not for career accolades Dwight >>>> Russell.
Mind you I tend to agree with Lowry > Kidd, but that's part of why there's so nuch push back.
This Cavs team isn't very good. Toronto SHOULD win the series. I'm at a loss for how it's playing out to this point. Lowry started 7-7 and then disappeared the entire second half. When his shot isn't falling it's like he's not even out there. If nothing else Kidd was able to make an impact on the game without scoring . I've yet to see that from Lowry.
To be fair I tried to block out those years, but unfortunately the stench remains. Knicks didn't even make the playoffs the years the Nets went to the Finals.