King Kreole

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Ethnic enclaves are not a problem unless the ethnic enclave includes vast portions of territory and independent structures outside of the central government, which is what Quebec is
Right, this is what I said. Canada has two large ethnic groups that dominate the national project, which isn't the case with NYC or any other place in America. There is no ethnic group in America that has vast portions of territory and independent structures outside the central government that can challenge the unity of the national project via threats of secession.

That's why it's very dangerous for the country to have vast amounts of the southwest to have Spanish be the de facto office language and having generations of people that don't speak English
There is no simply credible threat of Southwest Latinos collapsing America through non-integration via speaking Spanish.

if you walked in Rome and Constantinople and London there was an overarching culture and language that people had to integrate into and it's not the only reason but language is one of the reasons the Roman Empire separated into two capitals of Rome and Constantinople
There was an overarching civic entity and an official state language, but the culture of these places was distinctly multi-ethnic and informed by their status as capitals of empire. The people living and working in these cities were not all speaking the same language or engaging in the same cultural practices. You didn't have to speak fluent Latin to live and work in Ancient Rome, it was a multilingual society precisely due to its prominent status as the center of empire. The Roman Empire split into East and West because it grew too large to be functionally unified, having one language wouldn't have meaningfully changed the logistical and security concerns that came with governing such a vast territory of different people with different histories and different concerns.

You can analyze the details of Canada all you want but Canada almost and might break up and language is one of the main reasons for it. Canada is an example of why it's important to only have one language in America. Why do you say that Canada has prided itself in being a salad bowl like it's a good thing? What has canada gotten by being a salad bowl aside from being on the constant verge of breaking up?
:heh:Canada is not going to break up, and language wouldn't be the primary factor if it did. The Bloc Quebecois aren't even pushing secession as a primary goal anymore, the Quebec sovereignty movement hasn't had juice since like the late 90s-early 2000s.

The Canadian salad bowl metaphor is more structurally sound for an explicitly multiracial, multiethnic, multicultural society in the 21st century where global migration is easier than ever before. Canada is a more socially and politically stable society than the United States, in some ways due to the lack of tension in feeling like one has to divest themselves of their immigrant identity in order to become a member of the national family. There is a baseline of respect for differences that comes out of this model. The United States is at more risk of breaking up than Canada because you have people like Matt Walsh saying they should denaturalize and deport Zohran Mamdani because "he's not American enough".
 

theworldismine13

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I don't believe 2nd generation Americans not knowing how to speak English is a practice that should be actively promoted. The vast majority do know how to speak English because they grew up in a public school system that uses English as the primary/sole language. Ideally everyone knows every language but the tower of Babel fell so we're dealing with a multilingual world. And the strict enforcement of one language would weaken the US by dissuading immigration from around the world, leading to a brain drain from those immigrants who aren't proficient in English. I would see your point if people of different languages were completely incapable of interacting with each other, but that's obviously not the case. It's about being an inclusive, welcoming society instead of an insular, closed off society.

My point is that the presence of multiple languages in a place like New York City is not indicative of a problem, and is in fact actually a boon to the prosperity of the city. NYC is a global city. It's the financial capital of the world. Most of the people who are unable to speak English in NYC are 1st gen immigrants who are contributing value to the city and as members of society have the right to societal/governmental services. Their children are most often bilingual and will choose to speak a certain language when the context calls for it. It is obviously better to be bi/multilingual than unilingual.

And this is absolutely the way America traditionally integrated new people. How many languages do you think you would hear at Ellis Island on any given day at the turn of the 20th century? Interpreter - Ellis Island Part of Statue of Liberty National Monument (U.S. National Park Service)

America isn't a language, it's a society. There are and have been many high-value Americans who cannot speak English yet still integrate into America by providing social, economic, or cultural value.
yes of course not knowing English should not be promoted for the 2nd generation because it's an obvious dumb idea, and extrapolating from that it's also stupid to not promote English to the 1st generation

We have just proved that your theory is wrong and my theory is correct, diversity is only an advantage if their is a simultaneous push toward integration, in and of itself diversity is bad

What you are saying about America immigration is point blank false, "speak English motherfuker" has always been the American attitude toward immigrants, Ellis immigrants were literally given anglicized names as they stepped off the boat and they were constantly pushed to let go of their culture and language. I don't know what history book you have been reading.

1st generation immigrants today don't speak English because they have been coddled by diversity initiatives. The whole expansion of multilingualism in American government was an expansion of civil rights. Where immigrants were equated to black Americans and therefore they have a "civil right" to be spoken in their own language. This is very problematic and not good policy for aforementioned reasons.

And also the sheer amount of immigrant is huge and the ethnic enclaves keep increasing in size as opposed to shrinking

Both these things go against the traditional way of how America handles immigration and this is why trump is correct when it comes to immigration

America isn't a language, it's a society. There are and have been many high-value Americans who cannot speak English yet still integrate into America by providing social, economic, or cultural value.
This is complete bullsh*t and very dangerous. It's very un American and very Canadian. If you come to America you need to speak English.

These notions you're promoting becoming mainstream is the main reason it was important for Kamala to lose, that's the kind of bullsh*t she would promote. These notions will break up America in the long run into an increasing amount of "diverse" societal factions that can't get together to do anything. Which admittedly is what's going on today but what's the point of making it worse.

The idea that increasing "diversity" and multilingualism will make America better has no logical or historical basis.

 
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☑︎#VoteDemocrat

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I don't know what you mean by "displace islamist diaspora"...
holy shyt :dead:

I told you this dude was really hiding his religious views but yall are in here trying to attack me for saying thats a legitimate reason to look at him sideways :gucci:

Here he is literally wrapping his entire music career in being muslim :mindblown:



Now yall are telling me I’m being a bigot for asking what influence his religion has on his capacity to govern :stopitslime:


@the cac mamba @theworldismine13
 

King Kreole

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yes of course not knowing English should not be promoted for the 2nd generation because it's an obvious dumb idea, and extrapolating from that it's also stupid to not promote English to the 1st generation
1st gen and 2nd gen have fundamentally different motivations and circumstances. 1st gen have to overcome the entry barrier, and if it's too high then there are no 2nd gen.
We have just proved that your theory is wrong and my theory is correct, diversity is only an advantage if their is a simultaneous push toward integration, in and of itself diversity is bad
If immigrants are required to fully erases their diverse background identities to fully assimilate into some monoculture "American" identity then America would look like a very different and worse off place. If America is exceptional in any way, it's due to the internal diversity that makes the engine of American fusion go. America's cultural dominance is based on her diversity.

I agree that healthy integration and coexistence are necessary, my point is that diversity is not a nice-to-have secondary effect of more important upstream factors, it's a necessity for a healthy society. Diversity is always an advantage.

What you are saying about America immigration is point blank false, "speak English motherfuker" has always been the American attitude toward immigrants, Ellis immigrants were literally given anglicized names as they stepped off the boat and they were constantly pushed to let go of their culture and language. I don't know what history book you have been reading.
We're talking about governmental services that cater to multiple languages and ethnic groups, and your claim is that this is a recent liberal phenomenon. I provided you with literal government service that catered to multiple languages and ethnic groups during the most important period of immigration in this country's history. If the American government's attitude towards immigrants was "speak English motherfukker" then why would there be multilingual translators working for the government at the largest ports of immigration? At what period of time in history are you time travelling to New York City and finding yourself only confronted by the English language? The language of business being done in the Diamond District is different from the language of music being played at the Puerto-Rican Day Parade is different from the language of kitchens in Chinatown restaurants. All of these are, and historically have been, contributing to the greatness of New York City. And if you barred the speaking of non-English languages, these benefits would disappear. Arab-Americans, Irish-Americans, Italian-Americans, African-Americans, Jewish-Americans, Afro-Latinos, Asian-Americans, these are all distinct, diverse ethnic identities that were as prevalent in history as they are today, so any effort to strip all people living here of their ethnic identities and form one mono-linguistic Anglo-American identity has failed, much to the benefit of America.

1st generation immigrants today don't speak English because they have been coddled by diversity initiatives. The whole expansion of multilingualism in American government was an expansion of civil rights. Where immigrants were equated to black Americans and therefore they have a "civil right" to be spoken in their own language. This is very problematic and not good policy for aforementioned reasons.
1st generation immigrants (from non-English speaking societies) have never spoken English at prolific rates. And I would actually wager that the time period with the highest ratio of English speaking 1st generation immigrants is today, due to the globalization-induced spread of English as the language of global culture. A 1st generation Jewish immigrant from a Belarussian shtetel in 1885 is much more likely to have never learned English than a 1st generation Jewish immigrant from Poland in the 21st century. A 1st generation rural Chinese immigrant from 1881 is much more likely to have never learned English than a 1st generation Chinese immigrant from Shanghai in 2025.

And also the sheer amount of immigrant is huge and the ethnic enclaves keep increasing in size as opposed to shrinking
Well this is now a different argument that seems to be the actual motivation behind your posts.

This is complete bullsh*t and very dangerous. It's very un American and very Canadian. If you come to America you need to speak English.
It's Un-American to Americans who are ignorant of history and live in far less important and dynamic places than New York City, sure. If you're a cac who grew up in Muncie, Indiana and never interacted with a non-white person - much less heard another language spoken - until you were a young adult, then yeah the America that you know is Leave It To Beaver. But your lifestyle and national benefit is being heavily subsidized by those non-English speakers living in New York City. The ideology you're espousing is actually identical to the death rattles of post-Empire England; a place that has accepted its fatal trajectory and just wants to hear mother's voice as it dies.

These notions you're promoting becoming mainstream is the main reason it was important for Kamala to lose, that's the kind of bullsh*t she would promote. These notions will break up America in the long run
I actually think it's the other way around, the notion you're promoting of America as this parochial, insular, English-only township is being mainstreamed by the likes of JD Vance, Matt Walsh and other right-wing influencers who have confused mid-20th century white supremacist cultural artefacts and propaganda for reality and true history. Like, the Trump Administration's Department of Homeland Security twitter feed is a paean to this English-only self-conception of America, cleansed of all the dirty immigrants who speak "foreign" languages. And that's what's going to kill America in the long run, because it's suicidally shutting off the engine of American prosperity; the low barrier to entry of the open society.
 

King Kreole

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holy shyt :dead:

I told you this dude was really hiding his religious views but yall are in here trying to attack me for saying thats a legitimate reason to look at him sideways :gucci:

Here he is literally wrapping his entire music career in being muslim :mindblown:



Now yall are telling me I’m being a bigot for asking what influence his religion has on his capacity to govern :stopitslime:


@the cac mamba @theworldismine13

:mjlol:If you have a problem with this you are a fukking idiot man. I'm sorry, but it's true. That is the most tepid email.
 

Loose

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:mjlol:If you have a problem with this you are a fukking idiot man. I'm sorry, but it's true. That is the most tepid email.
He's just a bigot. I've seen nothing from Mamdani that suggests he's a Muslim extremist, or anywhere near the level of actual Christian or Jewish extremists we have in this country—like Randy Fine. Reading Nap's post, you'd think Mamdani supports Sharia law or ISIS. The guy is legitimately unhinged, lol. The average muslim are very good people, his modi supporting upbringing has nap going on unhinged rants right now.
 

☑︎#VoteDemocrat

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He's just a bigot. I've seen nothing from Mamdani that suggests he's a Muslim extremist, or anywhere near the level of actual Christian or Jewish extremists we have in this country—like Randy Fine. Reading Nap's post, you'd think Mamdani supports Sharia law or ISIS. The guy is legitimately unhinged, lol. The average muslim are very good people, his modi supporting upbringing has nap going on unhinged rants right now.
Yall sound like the graham planter brigade.
 

theworldismine13

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1st gen and 2nd gen have fundamentally different motivations and circumstances. 1st gen have to overcome the entry barrier, and if it's too high then there are no 2nd gen.
this is a completely meaningless statement, immigrants came to the us to work and their children stayed, it doesn't get more complicated than that

If immigrants are required to fully erases their diverse background identities to fully assimilate into some monoculture "American" identity then America would look like a very different and worse off place. If America is exceptional in any way, it's due to the internal diversity that makes the engine of American fusion go. America's cultural dominance is based on her diversity.

I agree that healthy integration and coexistence are necessary, my point is that diversity is not a nice-to-have secondary effect of more important upstream factors, it's a necessity for a healthy society. Diversity is always an advantage.
you are very much confused, a large part the history of the america in 20th century is how america integrated vast amounts immigrants and they abandoned their culture and took up an american identity, that is literally the history of the US

at this point you are just lying

We're talking about governmental services that cater to multiple languages and ethnic groups, and your claim is that this is a recent liberal phenomenon. I provided you with literal government service that catered to multiple languages and ethnic groups during the most important period of immigration in this country's history. If the American government's attitude towards immigrants was "speak English motherfukker" then why would there be multilingual translators working for the government at the largest ports of immigration? At what period of time in history are you time travelling to New York City and finding yourself only confronted by the English language? The language of business being done in the Diamond District is different from the language of music being played at the Puerto-Rican Day Parade is different from the language of kitchens in Chinatown restaurants. All of these are, and historically have been, contributing to the greatness of New York City. And if you barred the speaking of non-English languages, these benefits would disappear. Arab-Americans, Irish-Americans, Italian-Americans, African-Americans, Jewish-Americans, Afro-Latinos, Asian-Americans, these are all distinct, diverse ethnic identities that were as prevalent in history as they are today, so any effort to strip all people living here of their ethnic identities and form one mono-linguistic Anglo-American identity has failed, much to the benefit of America.

this is all munbo jumbo, in the end all those people ended up speaking english, the immigrant that doesnt speak english is a modern phenomena, through most of american history all immigrants were forced to speak english to get around, their actual level of english isnt relevent to the point that immigrants were pushed very hard to speak english

the idea that english was not pushed on immigrants is so laughable, what the hell are you reading?

you're example of of the government catering to non english speakers is immigration agents at ellis island forcing immigrants to anglicize their names ,:russ:

It's Un-American to Americans who are ignorant of history and live in far less important and dynamic places than New York City, sure. If you're a cac who grew up in Muncie, Indiana and never interacted with a non-white person - much less heard another language spoken - until you were a young adult, then yeah the America that you know is Leave It To Beaver. But your lifestyle and national benefit is being heavily subsidized by those non-English speakers living in New York City. The ideology you're espousing is actually identical to the death rattles of post-Empire England; a place that has accepted its fatal trajectory and just wants to hear mother's voice as it dies.

again you are fabricating history, that is not the history of NYC at all, in NYC traditionally immigrants were pushed very hard to learn english

there is no historical narrative of NYC that i am aware of that says immigrants were not pushed very hard to learn english, look at the godfather, look at the trump and cuomo families, trump is literally a german anchor baby running around talking about america first, thats representative of NYC immigration history

this whole government support of bilingual/multilingualism in NYC is modern

I actually think it's the other way around, the notion you're promoting of America as this parochial, insular, English-only township is being mainstreamed by the likes of JD Vance, Matt Walsh and other right-wing influencers who have confused mid-20th century white supremacist cultural artefacts and propaganda for reality and true history. Like, the Trump Administration's Department of Homeland Security twitter feed is a paean to this English-only self-conception of America, cleansed of all the dirty immigrants who speak "foreign" languages. And that's what's going to kill America in the long run, because it's suicidally shutting off the engine of American prosperity; the low barrier to entry of the open society.

what they are promoting is what was said in the teddy Roosevelt quote and its been the traditionally american way of dealing with immigrants, thats just history.

actually i agree that it is influenced by white supremacy and also xenophobia, but in the end its a good thing that america forced assimilation into immigrants, thats where the trump, kennedy and cuomo families (for example) came out of and obama and mamdani also, the us should be given props for assimilating all these different people, but these happened through pushing immigrants very hard to asimilate

this whole thing about printing ballots and government forms in 12 different languages is some new ish and its not the traditional american way
 
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88m3

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I'm going to build the tallest minaret on my block. You'll be able to see it for miles. You guys seriously need to stop hand wrenching over him being elected.
 

theworldismine13

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Right, this is what I said. Canada has two large ethnic groups that dominate the national project, which isn't the case with NYC or any other place in America. There is no ethnic group in America that has vast portions of territory and independent structures outside the central government that can challenge the unity of the national project via threats of secession.


There is no simply credible threat of Southwest Latinos collapsing America through non-integration via speaking Spanish.

ok so today is Nov 6 2025. it is correct that there is no credible threat of southwest latinos breaking off, there is no equivalent to quebec, correct.

but if today you create a system were vast numbers of latinos migrate legally and illegally to the southwest, eventually you legalize and give citizenship to all the illegals, they become the vast majority of the residents, you start passing laws and regulations to make everything bilingual and business and government are conducted in spanish, im suggesting that fast forward 75 years to Nov 6th 2100 you will have a quebec situation

the fact that there isnt a quebec situation today doesnt mean it cant happen in the future, capish?

There was an overarching civic entity and an official state language, but the culture of these places was distinctly multi-ethnic and informed by their status as capitals of empire. The people living and working in these cities were not all speaking the same language or engaging in the same cultural practices. You didn't have to speak fluent Latin to live and work in Ancient Rome, it was a multilingual society precisely due to its prominent status as the center of empire. The Roman Empire split into East and West because it grew too large to be functionally unified, having one language wouldn't have meaningfully changed the logistical and security concerns that came with governing such a vast territory of different people with different histories and different concerns.

this is an example of you just making stuff up, Rome was not multilingual, latin was the language of the romans. as it expanded east greek became popular and the roman empire became bilingual, but no other languages ever became official or ever became widespread outside of localities in the empire

rome was not a city of immigrants, and neither was london which you brought up before, there is no evidence that the locals spoke anything other than latin, during the decline of the western empire there were masses of barbarians settling into roman cities, but again, this was the start of the decline of the empire and the barbarians accelerated the decline so i dont think thats an example you want to use

NYC is a very peculiar city relative to immigration and language, there really isnt any equivalent to it, there are no other cities during the 20th century that i know of were masses of people from multiple different countries come and just settle there like its all good, it happened to a small extent in other american cities but nowhere near the levels of NYC

i didnt say language was the cause of the breakup of the roman empire, I said it was a factor

and the other side of the coin is that latin (and eventually greek) being dominant is one of the reasons the empire survived so long. im not saying thats the reason why it survived so long, so just relax, im saying its a factor

:heh:Canada is not going to break up, and language wouldn't be the primary factor if it did. The Bloc Quebecois aren't even pushing secession as a primary goal anymore, the Quebec sovereignty movement hasn't had juice since like the late 90s-early 2000s.

The Canadian salad bowl metaphor is more structurally sound for an explicitly multiracial, multiethnic, multicultural society in the 21st century where global migration is easier than ever before. Canada is a more socially and politically stable society than the United States, in some ways due to the lack of tension in feeling like one has to divest themselves of their immigrant identity in order to become a member of the national family. There is a baseline of respect for differences that comes out of this model. The United States is at more risk of breaking up than Canada because you have people like Matt Walsh saying they should denaturalize and deport Zohran Mamdani because "he's not American enough".

do you even think about what you write, you just admitted that canada almost broke up in the 2000s, and without a whiff of shame or self awareness you proceed to announce that canada is more stable than the united states

i can pretty much guarantee that the US will be about the same as it as now in 2100. there is no person with knowledge of canada that will bet that in 2100 canada will still exist as we now know it.

you do realize that trumps's offer is still on the table and that while politicians have rejected it, the population is still thinking about it
 
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theworldismine13

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I'm going to build the tallest minaret on my block. You'll be able to see it for miles. You guys seriously need to stop hand wrenching over him being elected.
are you down with zhoran, i thought you were a zionist
 
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King Kreole

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this is a completely meaningless statement, immigrants came to the us to work and their children stayed, it doesn't get more complicated than that
There's obviously a completely relevant difference between the two groups when it comes to language capabilities :dahell:

you are very much confused, a large part the history of the america in 20th century is how america integrated vast amounts immigrants and they abandoned their culture and took up an american identity, that is literally the history of the US

at this point you are just lying
Ok so just to be clear, your position is that Italian-American identity and Chinese-American identity are distinctions without a difference and the two groups are indistinguishable because America successfully obliterated their respective ethnic backgrounds? Aren't you the one complaining about all these ethnic immigrants speaking different languages? I think it is you who is confused.

this is all munbo jumbo, in the end all those people ended up speaking english, the immigrant that doesnt speak english is a modern phenomena, through most of american history all immigrants were forced to speak english to get around, their actual level of english isnt relevent to the point that immigrants were pushed very hard to speak english
:dead:lmfao please pick up a fukking history book man, the idea that all immigrant in the 19th and 20th century learned to speak English is just so obviously and laughably incorrect

like yeah a fukking 50 year old Jewish peasant immigrating from rural Poland in 1889 learned to speak English and definitely didn't just stay within the Yiddish-speaking Jewish quarter :mjlol:



again you are fabricating history, that is not the history of NYC at all, in NYC traditionally immigrants were pushed very hard to learn english

there is no historical narrative of NYC that i am aware of that says immigrants were not pushed very hard to learn english, look at the godfather, look at the trump and cuomo families, trump is literally a german anchor baby running around talking about america first, thats representative of NYC immigration history

this whole government support of bilingual/multilingualism in NYC is modern
Like half of Godfather II is subtitled because they're speaking Italian man :russ:

NYC immigration history is not a story of conformity and English language supremacy, it's a story of ethnic enclaves and multilingualism

what they are promoting is what was said in the teddy Roosevelt quote and its been the traditionally american way of dealing with immigrants, thats just history.
1st gen immigrants abandoning their language and to become fluent in English is not the traditionally American way of dealing with immigrants, outside of the relatively rare cases of immigrants moving to low-immigrant areas, so definitely not NYC.

In fact, let me just dead this whole conversation right now:

Study debunks myth that early immigrants quickly learned English

Joseph Salmons has always been struck by the pervasiveness of the argument. In his visits across Wisconsin, in many newspaper letters to the editor, and in the national debates raging over modern immigration, he encounters the same refrain:

“My great, great grandparents came to America and quickly learned English to survive. Why can’t today’s immigrants do the same?”

The look at century-old language patterns seems especially salient in the modern political culture, where “English-only” movements are cropping up everywhere and there is considerable debate about how quickly new Spanish-speaking immigrants should be assimilating a new language.

As a professor of German who has extensively studied European immigrant languages in the Midwest, Salmons discovered there was little direct research available about whether this “learn English or bust” ethic really existed.

To research the topic, Salmons and recent UW–Madison German Ph.D. graduate Miranda Wilkerson delved into census data, newspapers, books, court records and other materials to help document the linguistic experience of German immigrants in Wisconsin from 1839 to the 1930s. Their paper appears in the current issue of the journal American Speech.

Focusing on German immigrants was a logical choice, Salmons says, since they represented the biggest immigration wave to Wisconsin in the mid-1800s, “and they really fit this classic view of the ‘good old immigrants’ of the 19th century.”

What Salmons and Wilkerson found was a remarkable reversal of conventional wisdom: Not only did many early immigrants not feel compelled out of practicality to learn English quickly upon arriving in America, they appeared to live and thrive for decades while speaking exclusively German.

In many of the original German settlements in the mid-1800s from southeastern Wisconsin to Lake Winnebago and the Fox Valley, the researchers found that German remained the primary language of commerce, education and religion well into the early 20th century, Salmons says. Some second- and even third-generation German immigrants who were born in Wisconsin were still monolingual in German as adults.


“These folks were committed Americans,” says Salmons. “They participated in politics, in the economy, and were leaders in their churches and their schools. They just happened not to conduct much of their life in English.”

One of the richest quantitative sources for the study came from the 1910 U.S. Census, which is digitized and available through the Wisconsin Historical Society. Wilkerson analyzed self-reports on the languages adults spoke in areas of heavy German settlement, which included nine townships in seven counties across southeastern and central Wisconsin.

Examples include the communities of Hustisford in Dodge County; Hamburg in Marathon County; Kiel in Manitowoc County; Germantown in Washington County; and Belgium in Ozaukee County.

In 1910, the researchers still found robust populations of German-only speakers in these communities. The census identified 24 percent German-only speakers in Hustisford, 22 percent in Schleswig (Manitowoc County), 21 percent in Hamburg and 18 percent in Kiel.

These numbers did not only represent first-generation immigrants, but included many born in the United States. Of the self-reported German-only speakers in the census, 43 percent from Germantown were born in the U.S., followed by 36 percent in Schleswig, 35 percent in Hustisford and 34 percent in Brothertown (Calumet County).

“What this means for the learning (or non-learning) of English here is telling: after 50 or more years of living in the United States, many speakers in some communities remained monolingual,” the authors wrote. “This finding provides striking counterevidence to the claim that early immigrants learned English quickly.”

Salmons points to other straightforward evidence of how viable the German language remained in Wisconsin. Through state history, there were more than 500 German-language newspapers published in Wisconsin. Those small-town papers often consolidated into larger-circulation papers in the 20th century and remained commercially available into the 1940s.

Some other interesting findings from published data include:

  • A 1932 paper on 19th century immigration to northern Milwaukee stated that “English was not even necessary for their day-to-day interactions. Every person they came in contact with could speak German at least as well as English. In Ozaukee County, there is evidence that the Irish families who lived scattered among the Germans could speak German.”
  • The researchers found correspondence in the 1890s from school districts to the office of the state school superintendent that were written entirely in German. This is after the Bennett law of 1889 that required schools to be taught in English.
  • They also found records in a UW–Madison dissertation about Lebanon, Wis., from a Lutheran church in the community that was “introducing one sermon each month in English, on a trial basis.” That decision was made in 1929.
One of the remarkable findings in the census was that being a German-only speaker “did not act as a barrier to opportunity in the work force,” says Salmons. While they expected to find these people on the fringes of the mainstream economy, instead they found a wide range of occupations represented, including teachers, clergymen, retail merchants, blacksmiths, tailors, yard foremen and surveyors, in addition to farmers and laborers.

“The key issue seemed to be whether they had a big enough German-speaking community, where they had a critical mass for people to be comfortable being monolingual,” Salmons says. “There was no huge pressure to change in those communities.”

The look at century-old language patterns seems especially salient in the modern political culture, where “English-only” movements are cropping up everywhere and there is considerable debate about how quickly new Spanish-speaking immigrants should be assimilating a new language.

As evidence of how heated the rhetoric has become, the paper references a 2006 comment from popular talk show host Michael Reagan, who stated that “hordes of immigrants … are chattering away in their native language and have no intention of learning English.”

Adds Reagan: “Can you blame them? They are being enabled by all those diversity fanatics to defy the age-old custom of immigrants to our shores who made it one of their first priorities to learn to speak English and to teach their offspring to do likewise. It was a case of sink or swim.”

Salmons says their study suggests that conventional wisdom may actually have it backwards — while early immigrants didn’t necessarily need English to succeed and responded slowly, modern immigrants recognize it as a ticket to success and are learning English in extremely high percentages.
 
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