AAVE is as complex as Standard American English

[Shadow]

We don’t live in a bubble...we live around people who try to minimize us to ourselves and to others which makes it important for us to craft the narrative. Understanding the components of our culture and then educating others on it only makes us stronger. The overarching narrative right now is that we speaking like a bunch of monkeys...your viewpoint does nothing to change this. Whereas I’m advocating that we understand internally as a culture that we don’t and present the scientifc results to others to change the narrative.

Do you honestly believe it will change the narrative? It's only 'trendy' when one of us doesn't use it, like braids and doo rags.

 

[invalid]

Sounds like boule c00nery to me.

'Good diction'.

As opposed to what?

Sounds like gma passed down more than wealth.

As opposed to AAVE.
My grandmother was an English major at a school that emphasized classical education.
And growing up on the South Side of Chicago in the 50's and 60's, AAVE did not have currency among professional blacks.
It still does not have currency among professional blacks.
I know that may be a surprise to you.

 

[Shadow]

You adding too much emotion to it...there’s basically two common schools of thought regarding the study of verbal communication, there are Linguists and Grammarians. Linguists remove the race and unnecessary sociological bullshyt and look at the communication scientifically e.g. “how did Person A communicate to Person B and how does that fit into the modern framework of human language?”

Grammarians are the ones who create class distinctions because they create a baseline for the communication e.g. SAE and denigrate any variants of it. They then begin to pick and choose because a New England dialect spoken by Whites will be respected for it’s grammatical and accentual differences while something like AAVE won’t.

Of course I am, I'm human.

I understand we are all subjects able to be studied for fiction, for poetry, for essays, etc. It strikes me weirdly though that it takes a non black person to say these things, things which Black Americans have been saying for years, for it to suddenly become an article to be taken seriously. It's as though our own words aren't enough. Instead it needs to be broken down in an article for others to understand.

 

[Pit Bull]

Of course it's complex. Try reading the slave narratives or Beloved and see how much of an exercise in comprehension it is.



Around my grandmother, we would get popped in the mouth when we were little and told "that's how ignorant people speak" or "that's n*ggerish" every time we used AAVE.
She was a high ranking corporate woman so emphasized good diction.

 

[get these nets]

I have a cool book breaking down AAVE a bit, by John McWhorter in his actual discipline, language.
Its very good.
If anyone wants it pm me and I'll shoot it to you.

I'm gonna regret it, but hit me!

 

[David_TheMan]

I think this is a great point.
I also think we need to emphasize that language, being the primary way we communicate with others, is dynamic and should be curated based on the receiving party or accepted norms.
It is unwise to use language in a way that is static as it can lead to barriers in communication.

Thats the main point in "The Language Hoax" among other things, its the fact that language isn't and never has been static. Only a small subsect of those who study grammar think that way and it doesn't apply to reality or the real world. Language is constantly evolving and changing regionally, nationally, and going different places that no one even can guess.

 

[cjlaw93]

AA Gang

 

[invalid]

You're right, and to build on this, if you wanna get into a language hierarchy, SAE is seen as lower than British English (to non linguists).

Beside the fact that there are different forms of British English. American grammarians, are not unaffected by American exceptionalism.
In fact, many would tell you that we improved upon British English.
It's the same in regards to manners. The general populous would think that the English sets the standards on manners.
Most of the populous has also never read a Miss Manner's or Emily Post book, both of whom would tell you that, although our customs are based on English customs, we are a bit superior because we improved upon their standards.

 

[Deuterion]

Do you honestly believe it will change the narrative? It's only 'trendy' when one of us doesn't use it, like braids and doo rags.

Absolutely, it will. It’s not gonna change the way White supremacy advertises us but it’ll definitely have an impact on how people see us when they engage with us directly.

As opposed to AAVE.
My grandmother was an English major at a school that emphasized classical education.
And growing up on the South Side of Chicago in the 50's and 60's, AAVE did not have currency among professional blacks.
It still does not have currency among professional blacks.
I know that may be a surprise to you.

AAVE may not have and/or had currency amongst Boule/c00n types but you cannot extend that to all professional Black people because if it were true “code-switching” wouldn’t have existed. I appreciate your input but don’t try to make the assimilation viewpoint the default for all African-Americans. You are talking about a subset of Black Americans largely Northerners who were successful but did a lot of soft shoe c00ning. These the same people that come out tap dancing for the Democrats every election season...

Of course I am, I'm human.

I understand we are all specimens able to be studied for fiction, for poetry, for essays, etc. It strikes me weirdly though that it takes a non black person to say these things, things which Black Americans have been saying for years, for it to suddenly become an article to be taken seriously. It's as though our own words aren't enough. Instead it needs to be broken down in an article for others to understand.

Emotion doesn’t have a place in intellectual discussion. Linguists are simply looking for how things are and documenting them, it’s on you to do what you wish with the findings.

 

[Asicz]

Anybody else notice that some of your old black boomer relatives use 'nikka'.
The media makes it like rappers like NWA started this.

 

[invalid]

AAVE may not have and/or had currency amongst Boule/c00n types but you cannot extend that to all professional Black people because if it were true “code-switching” wouldn’t have existed. I appreciate your input but don’t try to make the assimilation viewpoint the default for all African-Americans. You are talking about a subset of Black Americans largely Northerners who were successful but did a lot of soft shoe c00ning. These the same people that come out tap dancing for the Democrats every election season...

I get your point but you are doing exactly what I just did. My people have historically been RINOs and so have a lot of the people we knew so your assumption falls flat.

And code switching was a hallmark among blacks who rose up into the middle class. It was not a characteristic of blacks who were historically middle class.

Additionally, I don't like how you equate those that emphasized what society established as correct speech as boule/c00ns.

 

[HarlemHottie]

Standard English shouldn't be treated as the 'gold standard' is what I'm saying, and the study of our dialect shouldn't always circle back to it and how THEY speak. I'd be much more interested in learning the grammatical similarities between AAVE and west african languages, personally.

You don't understand. You know how a family tree is lined up? Language family trees are similar. SAE is not treated as the "gold standard." It's treated as a jumping off point, AAVE's grandmother, so to speak. The same way Latin is the grandmother of the Romance languages (which is why I mentioned it before).

Early SAE (a combination of various dialects, including whatever the common British, Irish, and Scots were speaking at the time, whatever nikkas on the slave ships was talking) + whatever pidgin enslaved Africans spoke (several W. African dialects combined and then boiled down to their basics)= AAVE.

 

[Asicz]

My grandmother was a maid for rich ppl. Part of her job was SAE. Her girls (my mom and aunt) speak SAE and AAVE. Can't speak for homie, but fluency in SAE was seen as a 'cert'.

Wow great point.
I never thought about how our Grand Parents and Great Grand Parents occupation might influence whether generations down the line use AAVE or SAE.

 

[you're NOT "n!ggas"]

Colonial education or education, you are starting to sound more as if you are scared of education and research more than anything.

Studies have found that as I posted earlier, Ebonics uses subjunctives normally, whereas common english subjunctives are being phased out entirely. As you saw in this article, ebonics uses negatives in the manner of other languages, they don't cancel each other out as they do in standard english, Its common in ebonics for the word " be form" to be left out, as it is in russian languges, it also has a base of words that are used that aren't used in standard english.

Its pretty interesting when you read more about it.

Mannn, you're doing more talk about how ebonics is DIFFERENT from Standard English. "Ebonics does abc whereas Standard English does xyz"-- breh I don't give a fukk Why is Standard English being forced as the primary source of comparison in convos where it should take a back seat? That's what I'm talking about, this urge that English HAS to be center stage, rather than studying and giving platform to what actually makes ebonics, ebonics.

If that' means I'm "scared of education" then so be it

 

[Pit Bull]

Thanks again for being candid.
I think the generation she was from had something to with it also. The way society changed in your parents' era led to them coming in contact with Blacks from different social strata ,regions and countries in ways that your grands did not.

I bring up and ask "how do you speak to, and around, your folks?" in these threads because in real life convos bout this topic, there is tendency to simplify things into "white" and Black speech. As if using proper diction, grammar, and pronunciation when speaking to our mothers is "talking white" or "speaking white" .I never bought into that.

That's part of it but it involves social strata and location as well. My grannies would have slapped me in my mouth for saying what his granny said not the way I said it.