lol @ cherry picking certain songs, and EPMD? i'd squarely place california love as a kleer and roger troutman sample. let's not play the who sampled what first game, it's pointless. but funny you say EMPD because that's one of my top 5 groups, but i'm talking stuff pre-88...the real remedial days of rhyming.
I'm not cherry picking or playing the who sampled what first game (although I love that game
) I'm just making the point that many of the highlights from the 80s (production wise at least) were sampled in the 90s.
87 had Rakim and KRS debuting with albums (with singles that had dropped in 86) and LL debuted in 85 and he was not a remedial rapper. You can even go back to Melle Mel in 82 and Kool Moe Dee and neither were remedial. My guess is you are more referring to shyt like Run DMC, Whodini and Too Short?
Either way...I"m with you to a degree, I definitely prefer 87 on. But there are plenty of classic songs from before then. I'm sure that you love Rock the Bells, The Message and like 15 Run DMC songs
that shyt isn't impressive to me, sonically and technically shyt was day and night from 84-94.
Was it day and night? Or was it a natural progression of what the genre was based on? The point I'm making is that the fundamental ideas were there...complex delievery with the rhymes (melle mel and KMD) and sampling (which is the whole genesis of this shyt with break beats in the park).
trap is just as hip hop as boom bap, g funk, timbo and pharrell's futuristic beats, etc.
I can't front on this. I might not like Trap beats but I can't really argue this point.
1) it doesn't have to be pioneers, just listeners, as you are. someone who was fukking with hip hop in 70's - mid 80's prolly looked at it in 96/97 and said wtf?...same thing you're doing now.
Maybe based on content...but I don't think there was an idea that it had evolved into a different genre.
2) cats like bone, nelly, 50 and ja opened the genre to being inclusive of singing/melodic rapping so i'm not sure why the beef is with the kids doing it when the old heads opened the gates. if what they did got to be rap or hip hop, i don't see the difference now, they're rapping, regardless of if they mumble thru the bars or "sing" parts of them (don't take me as c/s'ing all the wack talent now...but you seem to have one view of of rap and that's pure bars/spitters/rappity rap cats, rap hasn't been just that for ages)
It's not about blame. If it is...let's go ahead and put all the blame on Mobb Deep, Wu and Nas just so you can believe me when I say that.
It doesn't matter how we got here...the question is whether we are still hip hop at this point with the emphasis on singing.
Are they rapping? Or are they singing? Sounds like singing to me most of the time. Bone was obviously singing...and I'm not sure if there is a clear way to articulate this...but it always sounded to me like they were incorporating elements of singing into what was unquestionably rapping. Nowadays I feel like there are elements of rapping being incorporated into singing. I hope that makes sense.
Edit: last point, look at rock - there's death metal, hair metal, light rock, classic rock, alternative, acid, punk...and so on, it all gets rolled up under rock. no reason why trap or mumble rap
can't be sub genres that live under the greater umbrella of hip hop
I disagree with you here. I don't know much about rock or any of these other genres, but as an outsider to that music. I feel like heavy metal and grunge and punk were always considered there own genres. I look at "rock" as how things should be fore hip hop.
I could be completely wrong about that and again that's not my area of expertise.
Yes...everyone isn't looking for the same things in hip hop. Some ppl are looking for beats, others rhymes, others wordplay, other crazy flows...even in 96 someone listening to too short is interested in vastly different things than someone who listens to wu tang
"Vastly different"? I have to disagree with you there.
Number one. I was listening to Too Short and Wu Tang in 96. Number Two, Too Short's album in 96 had a song with Erick Sermon. I saw DJ Premier at a club doing a dj set about ten years ago maybe and he dropped that Short song.
Too Short used to have DJ Premier remixes. Biggie and Jay had Short on their albums in 97.
Vastly Different in 96 would be Too Short or Wu Tang to Shania Twain or Garth Brooks.
Rappers nowadays are focused on ad-libs, flows, delivery and quotable.
Rappers back then were focused on flows/delivery and quotables.
Anybody can write metaphors and multis if that was their goal
