Cavs is retarded to trade Love...

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

You tried telling me the Cavs offense wasn't as good as I thought, yet all I see is a 114.6 ORTG and I'm taking that to the bank .

It was actually a 111.6 ORTG - NBA.com/Stats | Teams Advanced. Bbal reference ORTG's are an estimate, NBA.com is the exact amount.

Nevertheless, that total number is heavily affected by the anomaly of Game 4. They weren't great across the series as a whole:

Game 1 - Cavs had a 89 ORTG
Game 2 - Cavs had a 105 ORTG
Game 3 - Cavs had a 109 ORTG
Game 4 - Cavs had 123 ORTG
Game 5 - Cavs had a 118 ORTG (which is slightly affected by the garbage points they scored near the end)

Not only would they have had a better, more consistent ORTG for the series if they had a proper offensive system in place, but their DRTG would've been better too.

They don't have the personnel for that, you need better passers than JR Smith & Tristan in your lineup to really have an effective motion offense. Their bench simply couldn't deal with the length/athleticism of the Warriors so it's not like they could run it either, they just aren't as talented as the Warriors. We all saw Kevin Love struggle to post up Klay Thompson when he was in that matchup, that should have been BBQ chicken all day long but it usually ended in some struggle shot.

Of course they have the personnel, the key is to simplify it in accordance to what the players can deal with. JR Smith can play a similar role to Klay, Tristan can do his best Julius Randle impression with simple dribble handoffs. There are many things they can do to get everyone more involved in the play, instead of just allowing Kyrie and LeBron to dominate possessions while the other three players stand around waiting for shyt to happen. It would make the offense more unpredictable, therefore harder for the opposition to defend, therefore the opposition would have to exert more energy, therefore the Cavs could balance out their efforts on offense/defense evenly, therefore having more focus/energy on the defensive end.

If LeBron allowed a system to generate offense more often he would be able to make a difference on defense because he'd have the energy, after all LeBron's defense is what the Cavs really needed, instead of relying on lesser defenders to pick up the slack. It's all about utilizing the players you have the best way you possibly can by maximizing their abilities on both ends of the floor. What good is it having all this offensive talent if you're reducing their roles? What good is it having one of your strongest defenders expend all his energy on offense?

It's all about finding a balance with what you've got. The Cavs didn't do that.

 

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

Bball reference says 115. Doesn't matter either way their defense was the far superior issue.

I take your avoidance/generalizing to mean that you really have no answer to my question.

Bball ref is just an estimate, NBA.com is the exact #.

I already answered your question, which is funny because I addressed a simple point from your initial post about Love's offense/role, and you're the one who actually shifted the argument. You tend to do this almost every time we converse.

 

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

Or...you know...better defense.

They could've had more success on defense, if they had a proper offensive system in place.

 

[Malta]

It was actually a 111.6 ORTG - NBA.com/Stats | Teams Advanced. Bbal reference ORTG's are an estimate, NBA.com is the exact amount.

Nevertheless, that total number is heavily affected by the anomaly of Game 4. They weren't great across the series as a whole:

Game 1 - Cavs had a 89 ORTG
Game 2 - Cavs had a 105 ORTG
Game 3 - Cavs had a 109 ORTG
Game 4 - Cavs had 123 ORTG
Game 5 - Cavs had a 118 ORTG (which is slightly affected by the garbage points they scored near the end)

A 111.6 ORTG vs a team that had been holding teams to 99 ORTG prior to the finals? Sounds like an offense that was as good as I thought Their offense was great, especially when you consider the defense they were playing against, and is it really an anomaly when they did something similar last year? They have an ATG level offense, any other team from the last 6 years is getting rolled by that Cavs team.

Of course they have the personnel, the key is to simplify it in accordance to what the players can deal with. JR Smith can play a similar role to Klay, Tristan can do his best Julius Randle impression with simple dribble handoffs. There are many things they can do to get everyone more involved in the play, instead of just allowing Kyrie and LeBron to dominate possessions while the other three players stand around waiting for shyt to happen. It would make the offense more unpredictable, therefore harder for the opposition to defend, therefore the opposition would have to exert more energy, therefore the Cavs could balance out their efforts on offense/defense evenly, therefore having more focus/energy on the defensive end.

Come on fam, Tristan looks like he never dribbled a ball before when he gets it, he can make the obvious pass to the corner sometimes but I don't want him handling the ball at all vs the Warriors. He had plenty of opportunities rolling to the rim to make plays or finish, but my man look like he was a quadriplegic most his life and just recently got the use of his arms. Their team is built to dependent on Kyrie and LeBron, they weren't winning that series no matter what they did and realistically how much more efficient could their offense get? Maybe 2 points per possession better? They'd still lose in 5.

If LeBron allowed a system to generate offense more often he would be able to make a difference on defense because he'd have the energy. After all that's what they really needed him for, instead of relying on lesser defenders to pick up the slack. It's all about utilizing the players you have the best way you possibly can by maximizing their abilities on both ends of the floor. What good is it having all this offensive talent if you're reducing their roles? What good is it having one of your strongest defenders expend all his energy on offense?

He's 32, I think his days of being elite defensively are over, and you just need to get guys around him that will allow him to be lazy on that end of the floor.

 

[Art Barr]

Trade away Andrew Wiggins, a three peat and create the league's nemesis, breh.

Trading Wiggins for love = stoopidest trade in NBA history



Art Barr

 

[Art Barr]

He's not teh same guy because he had to change to appease the LeBallhog. Everybody has to change their game to suit a guy who supposedly makes the game easier, teh most cerebral ball player the league has ever seen, yet he can't adapt to anyone else, everyone must adapt to him and when they fail they are just inept.

Hr never really materialized to mean much next to Westbrook in college.
The writing had been on the wall about love since college.
He just got to be an avatar for McHale and then used as a thumb in mchale's eye as well.

Kevin love is a sendoff and been on since he was drafted.
To the point I been told everyone he was a placebo based waste back then.



Art Barr

 

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

A 111.6 ORTG vs a team that had been holding teams to 99 ORTG prior to the finals? Sounds like an offense that was as good as I thought

Need I remind you of what you said -

"but the Cavs offense is better than the Warriors and now the two are starting to normalize to the point that the gap between the Cavs/Warriors offense is just as big as the gap between the Warriors/Cavs defense."




Furthermore, you take out that Game 4 anomaly and their overall ORTG isn't that great, especially if you look at their first three games where their ORTG average is only 101 (not exactly too far off the 99 ORTG GS held other teams to). Which again speaks to a higher point of the fact they focused most of their energy on offense, at their expense of their defense. If every team did that, you'd see a drastic change in ORTGs across the league.

Their offense was great, especially when you consider the defense they were playing against, and is it really an anomaly when they did something similar last year? They have an ATG level offense, any other team from the last 6 years is getting rolled by that Cavs team..

Their offense is great, and they do have an ATG level offense, but here's the thing - they can get by without a system because of their talent against lesser threats, but their style of play [Bron ball] rears its ugly head when they face equal or greater threats. Which is the exact thing that happened against GS. They were far too predictable and relied on hitting tough shots, rather than creating opportunities which got them the best looks, which cost them not only at the end of games, but consistently on the other end. The fact that Kerr actually allowed the Cavs to go 1v1 (to tire them out and nullify their 3-pt shooting) tells you all you need to know about their offensive structure.

That's the innate difference between GS/CLE respective offenses, is that one relies on getting the best shot possible + utilizing each player's skillsets/abilities as much as possible (sometimes almost at a fault), and the other trends in the opposite direction.

Come on fam, Tristan looks like he never dribbled a ball before when he gets it, he can make the obvious pass to the corner sometimes but I don't want him handling the ball at all vs the Warriors. He had plenty of opportunities rolling to the rim to make plays or finish, but my man look like he was a quadriplegic most his life and just recently got the use of his arms.

That's mostly down to the fact that TT has never been part of a team with a proper offensive system in place, and when the time comes for him to handle the ball he's not accustomed to dealing with that sort of pressure/situation. You don't think if there was a proper system in place since 2014, TT couldn't handle even the most basic roles of being a go-between on offense; dribble handoffs, post pass to open man, catching the ball off the roll etc? Of course, he could.

The point in all of this is only give each and every player an amount of offensive control that their skillset allows them to handle. Now obviously TT wouldn't be able to handle a Draymond-type role on offense, but he'd be able to be a connective tissue to the Cavs body of offense.

It's all about balance.

Their team is built to dependent on Kyrie and LeBron, they weren't winning that series no matter what they did and realistically how much more efficient could their offense get? Maybe 2 points per possession better? They'd still lose in 5.

They probably wouldn't have won the series, but they would've put themselves in a better position of winning. And isn't that what it's all about at the end of the day - making the most out of what you have?

He's 32, I think his days of being elite defensively are over, and you just need to get guys around him that will allow him to be lazy on that end of the floor.

Your defensive abilities tend to stick with you long after your peak/prime, the problem with Bron is he's developed far too many bad habits since he's returned to Cleveland. He doesn't need to be elite defensively, he just needs to balance out his efforts on both ends evenly. And yes of course, the Cavs need more two-way/defensive players - that goes without saying. I'm just simply arguing they could've utilized what pieces they do have better.

 

[Malta]

Need I remind you of what you said -

"but the Cavs offense is better than the Warriors and now the two are starting to normalize to the point that the gap between the Cavs/Warriors offense is just as big as the gap between the Warriors/Cavs defense."

I also said the net rating difference was only 1.5, at the end of the day it was 5.9 which is better than any of the opponents GS played. I gave GS the edge in defense and that is where the difference was

Furthermore, you take out that Game 4 anomaly and their overall ORTG isn't that great, especially if you look at their first three games where their ORTG average is only 101 (not exactly too far off the 99 ORTG GS held other teams to). Which again speaks to a higher point of the fact they focused most of their energy on offense, at their expense of their defense. If every team did that, you'd see a drastic change in ORTGs across the league.

Come on breh, you can't remove game 4 like that, not when game 1 was just as big of an anomaly for them and you don't see me saying to remove it. Over the course of the series, their offense operated as well as you can expect going against a defense as good as GS and they would have beaten pretty much any other team but GS.

Their offense is great, and they do have an ATG level offense, but here's the thing - they can get by without a system because of their talent against lesser threats, but their style of play [Bron ball] rears its ugly head when they face equal or greater threats. Which is the exact thing that happened against GS. They were far too predictable and relied on hitting tough shots, rather than creating opportunities which got them the best looks, which cost them not only at the end of games, but consistently on the other end. The fact that Kerr actually allowed the Cavs to go 1v1 (to tire them out and nullify their 3-pt shooting) tells you all you need to know about their offensive structure.

The entire team is built around Bron ball, we saw what happened when he'd go to the bench. If they had even a decent bench the scope of the series changes and they do have a fighting chance of winning that because he'd actually be able to rest. The fact of the matter is the team was built around him and it came back to haunt them, but that's not to say what he was doing wasn't working. If you swapped benches between the two teams, would we be talking about this right now? The Warriors have more two ways players in their starting lineup and coming off their bench.

That's the innate difference between GS/CLE respective offenses, is that one relies on getting the best shot possible + utilizing each player's skillsets/abilities as much as possible (sometimes almost at a fault), and the other trends in the opposite direction.

The difference is one team has 3 of the best shooters ever, with 2 of them being very good playmakers.

That's mostly down to the fact that TT has never been part of a team with a proper offensive system in place, and when the time comes for him to handle the ball he's not accustomed to dealing with that sort of pressure/situation. You don't think if there was a proper system in place since 2014, TT couldn't handle even the most basic roles of being a go-between on offense; dribble handoffs, post pass to open man, catching the ball off the roll etc? Of course, he could.

No, that is because of Tristan's limitations as a player, he's never developed an offensive game and we're talking about a dude that decided to switch shooting hands as a professional. He's undersized as a C as well, I don't trust him to do anything with the ball, a proper system isn't going to stop him from dribbling the ball like he has Parkinsons breh.

The point in all of this is only give each and every player an amount of offensive control that their skillset allows them to handle. Now obviously TT wouldn't be able to handle a Draymond-type role on offense, but he'd be able to be a connective tissue to the Cavs body of offense.

Nah, he has small hands, haven't you noticed he almost never flushes it with one hand? Guys like that can't be trusted with the ball under any circumstance, it's like trying to get Ben Wallace involved in the O, I mean yeah you could but why? Some guys are just not meant to be offensive players, he's a dude that can't really finish strong over players without a lob, and there's a chance he may not even catch it. He had 3 years to try and develop some kind of offensive game before LeBron got there and it was a disaster.

They probably wouldn't have won the series, but they would've put themselves in a better position of winning. And isn't that what it's all about at the end of the day - making the most out of what you have?

Your defensive abilities tend to stick with you long after your peak/prime, the problem with Bron is he's developed far too many bad habits since he's returned to Cleveland. He doesn't need to be elite defensively, he just needs to balance out his efforts on both ends evenly. And yes of course, the Cavs need more two-way/defensive players - that goes without saying. I'm just simply arguing they could've utilized what pieces they do have better.

I just don't see it, there's not much they could have done with the roster they have to be more competitive, the fact the team crumbled when LeBron went to the bench was proof of that.

This Warriors team is the best I've seen, and the Cavs losing against them is just I'm not going to sit around and say what they could have done, because the only way they'd beat them is with some roster overhaul. I never once said the Cavs would beat the Warriors, all I ever said is their offense would keep them from being hopeless.

 

[Strapped]

Trade him

 

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

I also said the net rating difference was only 1.5, at the end of the day it was 5.9 which is better than any of the opponents GS played. I gave GS the edge in defense and that is where the difference was

And I did state you can't use the NRTG in that manner because of the sample size and difference of competition (Cavaliers played worse defensive teams in the playoffs). You were acting like "the gap between the Cavs/Warriors offense is just as big as the gap between the Warriors/Cavs defense." was because of their net rating, which really couldn't be further from the truth. The Warriors actually have the better offense, not only do they have more high-end offensive talent, but they have a far greater offensive system. They showed this all throughout the season with a higher ORTG, despite fitting in another main piece into the rotation and then adjusting when that piece was injured.

Now if what you said was true, the Cavs wouldn't have lost 1-4. Clearly, there's a bigger gap between the two teams than you're willing to admit.

Come on breh, you can't remove game 4 like that, not when game 1 was just as big of an anomaly for them and you don't see me saying to remove it. Over the course of the series, their offense operated as well as you can expect going against a defense as good as GS and they would have beaten pretty much any other team but GS.

What I'm trying to outline to you is, they weren't great offensively for the entirety of the series, which is one of many sample size problems you run into when you take a whole ORTG # from a series, and not look at each game as a standalone.

If they had a proper offensive system in place, they wouldn't have had inconsistent offensive performances to the same degree. I mean shyt, even that whole ORTG series # doesn't take into account how many tough shots they hit, sure they'll have the odd game where they catch fire taking those type of shots, but what success are you going to have if your hopes rely on hitting those shots, instead of having a structure that works towards getting open looks?

The entire team is built around Bron ball, we saw what happened when he'd go to the bench. If they had even a decent bench the scope of the series changes and they do have a fighting chance of winning that because he'd actually be able to rest..

Again, a proper system would fix all of this, as it would still run whether Bron is on the court or not. Now obviously it wouldn't be as effective with Bron on the bench, but it would still be effective. As you know teams like the Spurs, Warriors, Jazz and Celtics have offenses that continue to run the same actions no matter what lineup they have on the floor.

The fact of the matter is the team was built around him and it came back to haunt them, but that's not to say what he was doing wasn't working.

Except it wasn't working though was it. He exerted almost all of his energy on offense (and had little to no energy for defense which the Cavs were in most need of), and he reduced the roles of almost every player on offense because of his ball-dominant play. It made their offense predictable and therefore easier to defend, it lowered the supporting cast's engage and in-rhythm rates and it created an energy imbalance on both ends.

Like I keep saying - it's all about finding a balance.

If you swapped benches between the two teams, would we be talking about this right now? The Warriors have more two ways players in their starting lineup and coming off their bench..

If you swapped the benches, you'd also need to swap the players experience in the Warriors system, so yes we'd still be talking about this because the Warriors would've still won.

Nah, he has small hands, haven't you noticed he almost never flushes it with one hand? Guys like that can't be trusted with the ball under any circumstance, it's like trying to get Ben Wallace involved in the O, I mean yeah you could but why? Some guys are just not meant to be offensive players, he's a dude that can't really finish strong over players without a lob, and there's a chance he may not even catch it. He had 3 years to try and develop some kind of offensive game before LeBron got there and it was a disaster.

My breh, you're focusing on TT's role in this far too much; he'd only play a small part on the offensive end. Again, he'd only have as much of a role that his skillset/abilities could handle which would adjust as time went on as he got more accustomed to dealing with different situations, which obviously would only be a minor role.

This is all about balancing and utilizing all the pieces to maximize the team's offensive efficiency/effectiveness. Just because TT has physical limitations doesn't mean his role should be just standing near the paint waiting to grab offensive rebounds. Even if he's used as a misdirection on plays, an active player is always better than one who isn't. Moving pieces and a moving ball not only open up more opportunities, but it makes it easier to generate offense.

This Warriors team is the best I've seen, and the Cavs losing against them is just I'm not going to sit around and say what they could have done, because the only way they'd beat them is with some roster overhaul. I never once said the Cavs would beat the Warriors, all I ever said is their offense would keep them from being hopeless.

A roster overhaul is just lathering on the band-aids, it still doesn;t address the underlying issues and imbalance.

 

[FcKuPaYmE]

Dont matter what the cavs do. Who gone stop KD and Curry?

 

[surv2syn]

...especially for Butler or PG

Yes, he ain't the same player he was on the Twolves.Yes, his defense is horrible at times.

But neither Butler or PG is gonna fill the hole that his absence will leave. Love gives you 19 and 11 plus he is a constant perimeter threat. He provides the spacing for Kyrie and Lebron to operate.

Butler and PG playing styles would not work with Kyrie and Lebron. There is only 1 ball to share, remember that.

Half court game would look all kinds of

Cavs been to 3 straight finals, winning 1. That's a pipe dream for some of these owners out here. You make minor tweaks here and there, you don't blow the whole fukking team up.

Believe that replacing Kevin Love w/ PG or Butler is fukking your whole team up brehs.

 

[surv2syn]

Explain how?

Stop looking at the stats and look at the Xs and Os. PG is basically LeBron Lite..he needs the ball in his hands.

That man is not about to come to Cleveland to be a spot up shooter

He wouldnt be a spot up shooter.

He would be another player that they run plays for. He would be an additional playmaker. He would be a perimeter defender, which would be needed, not just against GSW but against the Spurs or Rockets, etc...should they advance to the Finals.

Maybe most importantly, he is a reliable scoring option that allows Lebron to rest and not play 46 minutes a game. He perhaps solves the problem of the Cavs being -11 on the floor in a 5 minute stretch when Lebron is on the bench.

I am not arguing about the trade, but PG and Butler are just better players than Love. Love is a spot up shooter. Always has been since he added the 3-ball to his game. He isnt a shot creator which the other two can do well.

You dont have to replace Love's 11 rebounds with one player. That is something you do by committee. He is a good player and he helped them win last year, he has to be shown some respect but he is more of a specialist 3-R type of player and against the Warriors or even the Spurs, that will always be exposed.

 

[Shutdown10]

I hope this trade goes down. If Lebron losses with PG and Kyrie this time, you Bron apologists are going to have to hold him accountable. It should also have ramifications on his legacy.

 

[Lord Beasley]

Y'all flip floppers were sold on his defense last year tho....