Celtics 6th in Iso possessions this year, 28th last year

[Project Pooch]

i.c.

Yeah, even if he sticks to "Smart vs. Wade", the % of time that Kyrie played with Smart this year was 50% more than the % of time that Lebron played with Wade, and that totally ignores Horford, who has been a 5 assist/game guy since he entered Stevens's system (and a 3+ assist/game guy even before that), not to mention Rozier.

I put Gil on ignore about 2-3 months ago because he's become useless this last year. He used to form informed opinions and then get stuck on them, drawing a line in the sand and refusing to cross no matter what the other person brought into the conversation. Now he doesn't even start with an informed opinion, he's just been stuck on "Lebron stans, ya'all" for the last year and manipulates everything to fit that single narrative. It was a waste of my time. It also keeps me away from a lot of the really biting, personal insults he used to toss around towards me. Frankly, just don't need people like that in my life.

Also, he was getting WAY too emotional about everything. Even after I put him on ignore, you can look at see that 4 of my last 8 negs are from him, MOST of which were for comments that didn't even have anything to do with him at all. Hell, going back to October a good 1/2 of my negs stayed being from Gil. It was just ridiculous - I don't know why he cares about me that much. So I dropped him.[/QUOTE]


Jesus

 

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

773-631=142 minutes more. That's almost 12 quarters of difference. Since we can use common sense that they don't play while quarters tighter and more like 5 minute spurts, over 28 stretches more of Kyrie+Smart than Bron+Wade. That's enough of a difference.

Are you gonna sit there and tell me 142 minutes / 28 stretches is the difference between Kyrie only having 3.3 ISOs per game, and LeBron having 6.6 per game? LeBron averages basically twice the amount of ISOs as Kyrie, yet you're ruling it down to the fact Kyrie plays 28 more stretches with another mediocre ball-handler.

Lord have mercy.

You keep bringing up offensive weapons as if these offensive weapons handle the ball. The vast majority of these weapons are 3 point specialists or a big who needs the ball fed to him to be effective. This is the big reason Cleveland has always had trouble with Golden State or any team with rounded players. You're not about to sit here and tell me you want people like JR, Korver, Crowder, Frye handling he ball more than Smart, Tatum, or Brown. Bringing up offensive weapons means nothing for this argument if none of them have the skill set to make you feel like they should be taking ball-handling duties from LeBron.

See, this is the problem, Smart shouldn't be taking ball-handling duties off anyone because he makes horrendous decisions with the ball in hand, he's near the top in the league in turnovers per time of possession (he even averages more turnovers per game than Kyrie despite handling the ball for 60% less time). He only handles the ball because the team's system is built off ball-movement, and player movement, where multiple players are expected to handle it, not because they're necessarily capable of handling it.

The exact same would apply if any of the Cavs players were on the team as well - Love, for example, would probably control the ball twice as long as he does on the Cavs, because of the duties the roll-man has in Boston's system. JR's a decent ball-handler, there's no reason why he can't handle the ball more, in fact, it would do him good since it would help his rhythm (he used to handle the 6th man duties when he was in NY, on the regular).

You only think this way because the Cavs system marginalizes its players' skillsets, whereas Boston's maximizes its players' skillsets, sometimes to a fault.

There's a reason why despite all this ball movement, player accountability, and system play, the Celtics offense is ranked to the equivalent of the 6th-best offense in the league when Kyrie's on the court (110.6 ORTG), and why they're even worse than the worst offensive team in the league when Kyrie's off the court (102.4 ORTG), because they're not all that talented/experienced when it comes to generating offense, which is why Kyrie is forced to generate offense for himself in games.

To put that into perspective the Cavs offense has a 108 ORTG when LeBron is off the court, despite barely having a system.

And yet, I have to reiterate, even when he's forced to generate offense for himself because of the lack of offensive weapons, he still averages only half the amount of ISO possessions that LeBron does. Only half the amount of ISOs as LeBron. Only half the amount of ISOs as LeBron. How many times do I need to repeat this before you grasp that concept?

How the hell can you say he's doing the same shyt as he was doing in Cleveland, when he takes 30% fewer ISOs compared to last season, with even MORE offensive responsibility? The fact he has to do more on a team because he's now the #1 option (as opposed to last season), is without his co-offensive anchor, and is surrounded by less talented and/or experienced scorers, on a bad offensive team, and yet still has managed to significantly decrease his ISO activity speaks to how much he's adapted his play to fit within the Celtics system.

He is NOT, and I repeat NOT doing the same shyt as he was in Cleveland.

The funny thing is, the Celtics actually need Kyrie to ISO more, because they regularly go on scoring droughts due to being limited in areas where they can score, effectively.

See:

"Boston's offense:

ISO - 75th percentile (top-5 in the league)
Transition - 6.9th percentile (bottom-5 in the league)
P&R (ball-handler) - 86th percentile (top-5 in the league)
P&R (roll man) - 41st percentile (bottom half of the league)
Post-up - 24th percentile (bottom-5 in the league)
Spot up - 69th percentile (top-10 in the league)
Hand-off - 48th percentile (bottom half of the league)
Off-screen - 89th percentile (top-5 in the league)

Basically, ISOs are one of the very few areas where Boston has had success scoring this season, and areas like transition, P&R (roll man), post-up and hand-off are the reasons for why they haven't had success scoring this season.

I bet none of y'all LeBron stans will even acknowledge this post."

You're just turning a blind eye to reality and parroting LeBron stan agitprop.

 

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

i.c.

It also keeps me away from a lot of the really biting, personal insults he used to toss around towards me. Frankly, just don't need people like that in my life.

Like I've told you many a time - don't throw stones in that glass house of yours.

 

[Shadow King]

​

Are you gonna sit there and tell me 142 minutes / 28 stretches is the difference between Kyrie only having 3.3 ISOs per game, and LeBron having 6.6 per game? LeBron averages basically twice the amount of ISOs as Kyrie, yet you're ruling it down to the fact Kyrie plays 28 more stretches with another mediocre ball-handler.

Lord have mercy.


See, this is the problem, Smart shouldn't be taking ball-handling duties off anyone because he makes horrendous decisions with the ball in hand, he's near the top in the league in turnovers per time of possession (he even averages more turnovers per game than Kyrie despite handling the ball for 60% less time). He only handles the ball because the team's system is built off ball-movement, and player movement, where multiple players are expected to handle it, not because they're necessarily capable of handling it.

The exact same would apply if any of the Cavs players were on the team as well - Love, for example, would probably control the ball twice as long as he does on the Cavs, because of the duties the roll-man has in Boston's system. JR's a decent ball-handler, there's no reason why he can't handle the ball more, in fact, it would do him good since it would help his rhythm (he used to handle the 6th man duties when he was in NY, on the regular).

You only think this way because the Cavs system marginalizes its players' skillsets, whereas Boston's maximizes its players' skillsets, sometimes to a fault.

There's a reason why despite all this ball movement, player accountability, and system play, the Celtics offense is ranked to the equivalent of the 6th-best offense in the league when Kyrie's on the court (110.6 ORTG), and why they're even worse than the worst offensive team in the league when Kyrie's off the court (102.4 ORTG), because they're not all that talented/experienced when it comes to generating offense, which is why Kyrie is forced to generate offense for himself in games.

To put that into perspective the Cavs offense has a 108 ORTG when LeBron is off the court, despite barely having a system.

And yet, I have to reiterate, even when he's forced to generate offense for himself because of the lack of offensive weapons, he still averages only half the amount of ISO possessions that LeBron does. Only half the amount of ISOs as LeBron. Only half the amount of ISOs as LeBron. How many times do I need to repeat this before you grasp that concept?

How the hell can you say he's doing the same shyt as he was doing in Cleveland, when he takes 30% fewer ISOs compared to last season, with even MORE offensive responsibility? The fact he has to do more on a team because he's now the #1 option (as opposed to last season), is without his co-offensive anchor, and is surrounded by less talented and/or experienced scorers, on a bad offensive team, and yet still has managed to significantly decrease his ISO activity speaks to how much he's adapted his play to fit within the Celtics system.

He is NOT, and I repeat NOT doing the same shyt as he was in Cleveland.

The funny thing is, the Celtics actually need Kyrie to ISO more, because they regularly go on scoring droughts due to being limited in areas where they can score, effectively.

See:

"Boston's offense:

ISO - 75th percentile (top-5 in the league)
Transition - 6.9th percentile (bottom-5 in the league)
P&R (ball-handler) - 86th percentile (top-5 in the league)
P&R (roll man) - 41st percentile (bottom half of the league)
Post-up - 24th percentile (bottom-5 in the league)
Spot up - 69th percentile (top-10 in the league)
Hand-off - 48th percentile (bottom half of the league)
Off-screen - 89th percentile (top-5 in the league)

Basically, ISOs are one of the very few areas where Boston has had success scoring this season, and areas like transition, P&R (roll man), post-up and hand-off are the reasons for why they haven't had success scoring this season.

I bet none of y'all LeBron stans will even acknowledge this post."

You're just turning a blind eye to reality and parroting LeBron stan agitprop.

The bolded renders any opinion you have on Cleveland's personnel for 97% of this season ridiculous

You want JR taking ball handling duties away from LeBron James...you overvalue the skills of the players LeBron has played with because you want to maintain the "LeBron stifles players" narrative. You think Smart is a horrible ball-hander yet he was the first ball-handler you brought up to make your argument. So why bring him up? Ball-handling isn't just dribbling, it is decision-making which you said yourself in your criticism of Smart. JR is NOT a decision maker.

Boston being successful at ISO's doesn't prove anything you're arguing. We know Kyrie is good at ISO's and P&R. So what? He's always been a great 1-on-1 scorer. I guess I'm supposed to assume every bolded category is because Kyrie also takes every spot-up and off-screen jumper in Boston like that team isn't guard and wing-heavy. Okay. Even if this is the case, it still does not lend to Kyrie becoming the "complete player" he supposedly HAD to escape from LeBron to be. Like someone up-thread said, he's Uncle Drew in a system, that hasn't changing. You can repeat half the ISOs as LeBron as much as you'd like because it doesn't change the fact that Kyrie has more capable ball-handlers/shot creators around him than LeBron does.

We might as well agree to STRONGLY disagree because you want players in Cleveland with no business handling the ball, handling the ball. Those who should have been handling the ball were not healthy/available (Rose, IT) or have played basically half a season likely because he's too damn old (Calderon). Outside of other Bron-hating posters, there's nobody on this board looking at the pre-trade Cavaliers and saying "He needs to handle the ball more". This gang of shot creators Cleveland had is only in your mind.

 

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

The bolded renders any opinion you have on Cleveland's personnel for 97% of this season ridiculous

Why, because I believe in the philosophy that if a player touches the ball more, he'll naturally be more engaged on both ends?

You want JR taking ball handling duties away from LeBron James...you overvalue the skills of the players LeBron has played with because you want to maintain the "LeBron stifles players" narrative.

It's not about taking ball-handling duties away from LeBron and giving them to JR, it's about ball movement, and involving more players in the actions. I've seen JR set Love, TT, and LeBron up on multiple occasions this season when he had the ball in his hands. I'm not saying he should be running the offense, I'm saying he should be utilized better instead of solely being used on spot-up possessions - it's half the reason why he struggles to get into rhythm and why he fades in and out of games.

He's capable of doing shyt like this when given the ball -

You think Smart is a horrible ball-hander yet he was the first ball-handler you brought up to make your argument. So why bring him up? Ball-handling isn't just dribbling, it is decision-making which you said yourself in your criticism of Smart. JR is NOT a decision maker.

I brought him up because he's the secondary ball-handler for Boston, something that should be obvious to anyone who watches Celtics games, which you've made abundantly clear you do not watch enough of. The problem with Smart is, he's asked to do too much with the ball (3.8 minutes time of possession), which is partly because the Celtics have limited options for the running of their system, that he ends up controlling the ball more than he should.

I'm not saying JR should be that type of ball-handler, I'm just saying he should handle the ball more. As everyone else in the team should, in accordance to their respective skillsets.

Boston being successful at ISO's doesn't prove anything you're arguing.

Except it does, again, obviously you haven't been paying attention to my arguments in here. His ISOs and the team's were used in argument as blame for their offensive woes.

We know Kyrie is good at ISO's and P&R. So what? He's always been a great 1-on-1 scorer. I guess I'm supposed to assume every bolded category is because Kyrie also takes every spot-up and off-screen jumper in Boston like that team isn't guard and wing-heavy. Okay. Even if this is the case, it still does not lend to Kyrie becoming the "complete player" he supposedly HAD to escape from LeBron to be.

He's not a "complete player" just yet, give him some cotdamn time! He's not going to figure out everything in one season! He's in his first season with a new coach, new system (well, an actual system), new teammates, new environment and he's without his co-offensive anchor (a lot of their projected plans/outlook for the season had to be altered because of his injury). He's already shown improvements, well I'd say he's shown that his capable of being an effective defender, an effective off-ball player, he's shown the ability to adapt his game to fit into a system and the ability to not rely on ISO activity to score (by cutting down drastically his ISO possessions despite dealing with more offensive responsibility).

Why do I need to keep repeating myself?

Like someone up-thread said, he's Uncle Drew in a system, that hasn't changing. You can repeat half the ISOs as LeBron as much as you'd like because it doesn't change the fact that Kyrie has more capable ball-handlers/shot creators around him than LeBron does. .

Except he doesn't. And even if he did, he doesn't have capable ball-handlers/shot creators to the level where it allows him to only take half as many ISOs as LeBron. You're verging on being patently ridiculous at this point. Explain how Kyrie has all these capable ball-handlers/shot creators yet (to the level that you're stating), yet his second-option is a 21-year-old who's averaging 14 ppg, and when Kyrie's off the court the team's offense is worse than the worst offense* (Kings) in the league?

Kyrie off the court - Celtics 102 ORTG
LeBron off the court - Cavs 108 ORTG

And that's before we take into account the Celtics actually operate in a proper offensive system, and the Cavs don't. So for all these supposed "ball-handlers/shot creators" that the Celtics have and the Cavs don't, why is there such a differential in their offensive production when both players are off the court?

We might as well agree to STRONGLY disagree because you want players in Cleveland with no business handling the ball, handling the ball. Those who should have been handling the ball were not healthy/available (Rose, IT) or have played basically half a season likely because he's too damn old (Calderon). Outside of other Bron-hating posters, there's nobody on this board looking at the pre-trade Cavaliers and saying "He needs to handle the ball more". This gang of shot creators Cleveland had is only in your mind.

Well, you'd be wrong, cause even Cavs fans were saying prior to the trades that the team was in desperate need of a system/ball-movement.

 

[G-Zeus]

The bolded renders any opinion you have on Cleveland's personnel for 97% of this season ridiculous

You want JR taking ball handling duties away from LeBron James...you overvalue the skills of the players LeBron has played with because you want to maintain the "LeBron stifles players" narrative. You think Smart is a horrible ball-hander yet he was the first ball-handler you brought up to make your argument. So why bring him up? Ball-handling isn't just dribbling, it is decision-making which you said yourself in your criticism of Smart. JR is NOT a decision maker.

Boston being successful at ISO's doesn't prove anything you're arguing. We know Kyrie is good at ISO's and P&R. So what? He's always been a great 1-on-1 scorer. I guess I'm supposed to assume every bolded category is because Kyrie also takes every spot-up and off-screen jumper in Boston like that team isn't guard and wing-heavy. Okay. Even if this is the case, it still does not lend to Kyrie becoming the "complete player" he supposedly HAD to escape from LeBron to be. Like someone up-thread said, he's Uncle Drew in a system, that hasn't changing. You can repeat half the ISOs as LeBron as much as you'd like because it doesn't change the fact that Kyrie has more capable ball-handlers/shot creators around him than LeBron does.

We might as well agree to STRONGLY disagree because you want players in Cleveland with no business handling the ball, handling the ball. Those who should have been handling the ball were not healthy/available (Rose, IT) or have played basically half a season likely because he's too damn old (Calderon). Outside of other Bron-hating posters, there's nobody on this board looking at the pre-trade Cavaliers and saying "He needs to handle the ball more". This gang of shot creators Cleveland had is only in your mind.

to be honnest JR was doing 15% of his time as a PG.. he actually ran a few possessions a game

but with 2 PG's added..wont be necessary anymore

 

[G-Zeus]

i.c.

Yeah, even if he sticks to "Smart vs. Wade", the % of time that Kyrie played with Smart this year was 50% more than the % of time that Lebron played with Wade, and that totally ignores Horford, who has been a 5 assist/game guy since he entered Stevens's system (and a 3+ assist/game guy even before that), not to mention Rozier.

I put Gil on ignore about 2-3 months ago because he's become useless this last year. He used to form informed opinions and then get stuck on them, drawing a line in the sand and refusing to cross no matter what the other person brought into the conversation. Now he doesn't even start with an informed opinion, he's just been stuck on "Lebron stans, ya'all" for the last year and manipulates everything to fit that single narrative. It was a waste of my time. It also keeps me away from a lot of the really biting, personal insults he used to toss around towards me. Frankly, just don't need people like that in my life.

Also, he was getting WAY too emotional about everything. Even after I put him on ignore, you can look at see that 4 of my last 8 negs are from him, MOST of which were for comments that didn't even have anything to do with him at all. Hell, going back to October a good 1/2 of my negs stayed being from Gil. It was just ridiculous - I don't know why he cares about me that much. So I dropped him.

i put ole boy on ignore too.. all them notifications got tired real quick

 

[Kings County]

And yet Bron still averages nearly TWICE the amount of isos per game, all the while playing with more offensive weapons. The Celtics have been missing their co-offensive anchor for the entire season, so they've needed Kyrie to look to create for himself more often than initially planned.

"all the while playing with more offensive weapons." the ones he got last week ?

nikkas who played 38 mins and scored 0 points? chillout

 

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

I'm amazed at how many folks are willfully ignorant just to push their agenda. Hardly anyone's interested in any proper discourse about the game.

 

[Remote]

@Shadow King with the heat

 

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

@Shadow King with the heat

No heat, just empty nonsense that doesn't reflect what's really going on. You're corny for shelling your act too.

 

[NYC Rebel]

i put ole boy on ignore too.. all them notifications got tired real quick

Same here. Dude is a pure fukkboi.

 

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

i put ole boy on ignore too.. all them notifications got tired real quick

Same here. Dude is a pure fukkboi.

And yet you two cornballs are still talking about me.

 

[Remote]

No heat, just empty nonsense that doesn't reflect what's really going on. You're corny for shelling your act too.

He made great points.
You couldn’t even admit to that even if you disagree. That’s too bad.

I think everyone is notificing how you marginalized Kyrie’s impact when he was injured during the 2015 finals and how now you are describing him as great and having been in some kind of prison with Lebron holding him back.

 

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

He made great points..

Except he didn't because they show that he isn't really watching Celtics games on the regular, and when I tried to reiterate to him that Kyrie has decreased his ISOs by 30% from last season, despite dealing with more offensive responsibility, he says he's just the same ole Kyrie and he hasn't changed.

I'm interested to hear what great points you think he made in counter to mine.

I think everyone is notificing how you marginalized Kyrie’s impact when he was injured during the 2015 finals.

Can you please explain to me how you came to this conclusion when I've been one of a very few posters on this board who has been breaking down and praising his game before he even got into the league. I have NEVER, EVER tried to marginalize Kyrie's game, at any point. What led you to believe I marginalized his impact in the '15 Finals in the first place?

how now you are describing him as great and having been in some kind of prison with Lebron holding him back.

Yeah, see, this is why I don't fukk with you. @jaguar paw would be able to tell you I've been "describing him as great" long before LeBron even returned to Cleveland. I don't mind if you disagree with me, but to blatantly make up lies to push whatever agenda you have against me is some fukk shyt.