Does the Talmud ACTUALLY say that?

[MMS]

I’ll never express some of the alternate interpretations or theories I have.

why is that, your rep isnt exactly close to positive so what do you have to lose posting what you think on a message board? this is not meant as an attack on your rep

I like to go hard at the Muslims though and I’m really trying to move away from that angle because it’s no point in “beating a dead horse” and i even feel bad for them. Islam as a religion today is 99% a joke.

That said, I think Islam began as the result of the kinda “religion for dummies” approach to teaching Judaism and Christianity to Arabs with a lot lost in translation and the lack of proper leadership.

i think that if you remember that they self proclaim: "We are the religion of Abraham"

they are imagining if they were in Abraham's shoes that is how they would perceive religion.

just a thought

I’m not sure if Jewish people read the gospels and letter of Paul however

Paul's letters were written for greek churches that had just learned about Judaism and Jesus Christ and his letters should be interpreted with that lense

so the other idea (that im sure you've thought of) is what was a greek church like before a jewish lense and the gospel of Jesus Christ?

But regarding Muslims, I stand by the belief that without a proper foundation and understanding of the “Torah & Injeel”, you can literally come up with ANY interpretation from the Quran to the point that it’s no more than a book of Arab philosophy/spirituality.

I know this is far off topic, not to derail the original purpose of this thread .

if your goal is to win arguments vs individual muslims, i dont see how either side comes to an agreeable situation

IE remember religion of Abraham.

To the Muslim. They are like Abraham, but you are like Haran (fire that never believes vs fire that always believes)

Abraham in Islam - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[MMS]

You’re thinking of `Esav’s grandson K'naz ben Elіfaz (B'reshіt 36:11), one of Edοm’s chieftains (B'reshіt 36:15), an entirely different individual.

The K'naz in Y'hοshu`a is `Οtnіyel’s father (15:17), Kalev’s stepfather (14:6,14) and direct descendant of the royal line Y'hudah (D.H Alef 4:13).

dog's steppefather

another reason i maintain Jerusalem is a foreign entity

We are living in a world of illusion

was looking for this and it appears the video was taken down but my studies brought me to a weird topic related to Jacob's ladder https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob%27s_ladder_surface for clarification on a genus...

www.thecoli.com

Spoiler

 

[DoubleClutch]

Random side question for @Koichos

So I hear that the psalms and other parts of the scriptures were actually supposed to be “sung” or chanted/performed with music originally

The question is, how if possible can Jews today know the type of music or melody to go with the scriptures/recitations as it was

Or is it just something lost in history?

Is there any known musical history in ancient Judaism we can actually HEAR? Like for example, what songs did David play on his harp?

It’s just an interesting topic to me because how much emphasis is put on gospel/worship music in Church and in contrast how music is discouraged or outright “haram” in Islam

 

[Koichos]

Random side question for @Koichos

So I hear that the psalms and other parts of the scriptures were actually supposed to be “sung” or chanted/performed with music originally

The question is, how if possible can Jews today know the type of music or melody to go with the scriptures/recitations as it was

Or is it just something lost in history?

Is there any known musical history in ancient Judaism we can actually HEAR? Like for example, what songs did David play on his harp?

It’s just an interesting topic to me because how much emphasis is put on gospel/worship music in Church and in contrast how music is discouraged or outright “haram” in Islam

You would have to consult the likes of Avraham Tz'vi Idelsohn, the father of Jewish musicology for that. The Mishnah discusses in detail the musical service conducted by the L'viyyim in the Temple (the central purpose of the T'hіllіm) - including the arrangement of instruments and choral members - but I’m not familiar with any particular melodies.

 

[DoubleClutch]

You would have to consult the likes of Avraham Tz'vi Idelsohn, the father of Jewish musicology for that. The Mishnah discusses in detail the musical service conducted by the L'viyyim in the Temple (the central purpose of the T'hіllіm) - including the arrangement of instruments and choral members - but I’m not familiar with any particular melodies.

Avraham Tz'vi Idelsohn from a quick google is more an expert on modern Jewish music plus he’s culturally a European Jew

I imagine someone like you who’s Yemeni Jew would have some deeper history or tradition in their family somewhere down the line when it comes to music?

Or does the Middle East Jewish customs (ancient Yemeni song/dance ) originate from “Arab” sources?

And I didn’t know music performance, composition and song/dance was reserved only for Priests?

Was it considered a special part of worship only a select few were able to do?

 

[Koichos]

Avraham Tz'vi Idelsohn from a quick google is more an expert on modern Jewish music plus he’s culturally a European Jew

Idelsohn’s Jewish Music: Its Historical Development is perhaps the most comprehensive of studies spanning the construction of the daily Temple service to today’s Diaspora.

I imagine someone like you who’s Yemeni Jew would have some deeper history or tradition in their family somewhere down the line when it comes to music?

Or does the Middle East Jewish customs (ancient Yemeni song/dance ) originate from “Arab” sources?

Instrumental accompaniment is not part of our formal prayer liturgy (regardless of where one’s ancestors settled) as that was limited to the choir of L'vіyyіm in the Temple.

And the tunes and cadences of the prayers are particular to the time (morning, afternoon, evening) and type (weekday, shabbat, festival) of day. But even among Teimanim it differs between the שרעבי and צנעני accents (גּ, ק, חולם) and the בלאדי and שאמי prayer formulas, the first of these being the tradition that Ramba"m himself based his nosah on.

The melodies of שרעב can be divided into תעיזי (similar to צנעא) and שמירי (found in the countryside) and חוגרי and חוביש and אלגדס and so on.. the same can be said for צנעא.

What are you looking to hear?

And I didn’t know music performance, composition and song/dance was reserved only for Priests?

It isn’t, generally. But your initial question was about T'hіllіm and other parts of the Nach being sung in ancient times ‘with music’, which is.

Was it considered a special part of worship only a select few were able to do?

In the Temple, yes.

 

[DoubleClutch]

Really good video showing how Islam/the Quran copies much of its content from the Talmud and other Jewish religious texts, oral stories, traditions, tales, legends, etc…. created by MEN.

I know @Koichos is probably aware of everything in this video as I was…

@MMS please watch this video and give your thoughts on it because I know you often quote the Quran as if it’s some type of authoritative document respected on the same level as the Torah and Gospels, but doesn’t this video damage its (the Quran and its author) credibility a bit?

What’s your opinion on the validity of the Quran as a trusted religious scripture and the uniqueness or originality of its contents?

 

[MMS]

Really good video showing how Islam/the Quran copies much of its content from the Talmud and other Jewish religious texts, oral stories, traditions, tales, legends, etc…. created by MEN.

I know @Koichos is probably aware of everything in this video as I was…

@MMS please watch this video and give your thoughts on it because I know you often quote the Quran as if it’s some type of authoritative document respected on the same level as the Torah and Gospels, but doesn’t this video damage its (the Quran and its author) credibility a bit?

What’s your opinion on the validity of the Quran as a trusted religious scripture and the uniqueness or originality of its contents?

do you think that a book could or would leech off of another book?

if not why do you think they wrote it that way (a hadith to potentially explain my thought on it)

Sahih al-Bukhari 2476 - Oppressions - كتاب المظالم - Sunnah.com - Sayings and Teachings of Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه و سلم)

Hadith of the Prophet Muhammad (saws) in English and Arabic

sunnah.com

Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) said, "The Hour will not be established until the son of Mary (i.e. Jesus) descends amongst you as a just ruler, he will break the cross, kill the pigs, and abolish the Jizya tax. Money will be in abundance so that nobody will accept it (as charitable gifts).

Spoiler

The Arreat Summit - Skills: Necromancer Curses

 

[DoubleClutch]

do you think that a book could or would leech off of another book?

if not why do you think they wrote it that way (a hadith to potentially explain my thought on it)

Sahih al-Bukhari 2476 - Oppressions - كتاب المظالم - Sunnah.com - Sayings and Teachings of Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه و سلم)

Hadith of the Prophet Muhammad (saws) in English and Arabic

sunnah.com

Spoiler

The Arreat Summit - Skills: Necromancer Curses

First, I gotta ask if you actually watched the entire video I posted. It’s pretty good. With scriptural and historical evidence

Second, do you actually think the Quran writers (Muhammad or whatever) were inspired by some divine source (Allah/Gibriel)?

At some point you need to acknowledge the historical element which proves where much of the content of the Quran comes from and how Islam developed as a religion/movement over time

You must separate the spiritual/theological aspect from just the plain facts. There is a real story and real people behind everything that happened as it was written in the Quran

What’s the reason?

Money power control oppression of non Muslims, women, non Arabs, slaves etc….clearly and the religion part of it is just secondary. Besides , religious aspect already existed well before Muhammad or Islam did

There’s nothing a Jew or Christian can learn from the Quran or Hadith that wasn’t already covered and accessible in the Torah & Injeel as the Quran even claims

 

[MMS]

First, I gotta ask if you actually watched the entire video I posted. It’s pretty good. With scriptural and historical evidence

Second, do you actually think the Quran writers (Muhammad or whatever) were inspired by some divine source (Allah/Gibriel)?

At some point you need to acknowledge the historical element which proves where much of the content of the Quran comes from and how Islam developed as a religion/movement over time

You must separate the spiritual/theological aspect from just the plain facts. There is a real story and real people behind everything that happened as it was written in the Quran

What’s the reason?

Money power control oppression of non Muslims, women, non Arabs, slaves etc….clearly and the religion part of it is just secondary. Besides , religious aspect already existed well before Muhammad or Islam did

There’s nothing a Jew or Christian can learn from the Quran or Hadith that wasn’t already covered and accessible in the Torah & Injeel as the Quran even claims

I didn't because like most threads with you debating muslims and quran you just keep making claims without reading the other posters responses to your claims

youre trying to insinuate with your second question that what they see as divine cannot be what you see as divine as a fundamental fact. I don't have the same opinion about what is divine as you do because the terms holy, divine, high even are a language unique to priests. But not necessarily hunters, shepherds, merchants and other professions.

and Jacob said about his priestly son when joined to his hearing son: Let not their council enter my soul

Genesis 49:6 Hebrew Text Analysis

thats a deep statement and a testimony to Jacob's maleness as a figure in both dialogues.

Surah Yusuf - 1-111 - Quran.com

Read and listen to Surah Yusuf. The Surah was revealed in Mecca, ordered 12 in the Quran. The Surah title means "Joseph" in English and consists of 11...

quran.com

Genesis 45:1 Hebrew Text Analysis

 

[DoubleClutch]

I didn't because like most threads with you debating muslims and quran you just keep making claims without reading the other posters responses to your claims

youre trying to insinuate with your second question that what they see as divine cannot be what you see as divine as a fundamental fact. I don't have the same opinion about what is divine as you do because the terms holy, divine, high even are a language unique to priests. But not necessarily hunters, shepherds, merchants and other professions.

and Jacob said about his priestly son when joined to his hearing son: Let not his council enter my soul

Genesis 49:6 Hebrew Text Analysis

thats a deep statement and a testimony to Jacob's maleness as a figure in both dialogues.

Surah Yusuf - 1-111 - Quran.com

Read and listen to Surah Yusuf. The Surah was revealed in Mecca, ordered 12 in the Quran. The Surah title means "Joseph" in English and consists of 11...

quran.com

Genesis 45:1 Hebrew Text Analysis

So you reject the material world, basic logic and objective history?

I thought you were the type to seek knowledge and challenge yourself when it comes to religion. Not to remain in your comfort zone.

If you’re scared to watch the video just say it.

Ignorance is bliss I guess

 

[MMS]

So you reject the material world, basic logic and objective history?

I thought you were the type to seek knowledge and challenge yourself when it comes to religion. Not to remain in your comfort zone.

If you’re scared to watch the video just say it.

Ignorance is bliss I guess

if and/or when you try to get a woman pregnant. Would you do so with your penis or your foot?

The Kabbalah of Fingers and Toes | Mayim Achronim

www.mayimachronim.com

@Koichos

 

[DoubleClutch]

if and/or when you try to get a woman pregnant. Would you do so with your penis or your foot?

The Kabbalah of Fingers and Toes | Mayim Achronim

www.mayimachronim.com

@Koichos

What’s funny is, if you watched the video I posted you’d get the Hadiths answer.

Clearly it’s the fingers

 

[MMS]

What’s funny is, if you watched the video I posted you’d get the Hadiths answer.

Clearly it’s the fingers

so lets consider what Jesus said: he must suffer many things by the chief priests and scribes

but he did not explicitly say Imams