HOW in the hell was Pac better than Nas at rapping?

[intilectual recipricol]

When you’re too hood to be in them Hollywood circles
And you’re too rich to be in that hood that birthed you
And you become better than legends you thought were the greatest
And outgrow women you love and thought you could stay with
Life become clearer when you wipe down your mirror
And leave notes around for yourself to remember

See, I can fukk with this naS... later naS is so much better lyrically than that early stuff... but

It's just another murder, nobody mourns no more
My tear drops gettin' bigger but can't figure what I'm cryin' for
Is it the miniature caskets, little babies
Victims of a stray, from drug dealers gone crazy
Maybe it's just the drugs, visions of how the block was
Crack came and it was strange how it rocked us

but on the real, its lyrics like the ones you posted that disgust me about naS fans actin like that incoherent stuff on illmatic is fukkin with later shyt

 

[the rhyme king]

Now would she remain in the same spot?
The gunshots rang they came from the cane spot
Now look here I see her clutchin' her son, In her arms she hurt
Her heart bleedin' as she watched her seed die in the dirt
Fulfilled prophecy, But who could stop the grief?
I walk around tryin' to hold the world up on top me

Now you might think what nas was doing is some how more flashy...but take a closer look to the in-rhyming, multis too and they are much more of a match, look at the last 4 lines of both specifically.

what do u mean by "more of a match"

because if u talking about matching syllables in terms of the number of syllables then u got multisyllable rhyming backwards homie

multis are just actually rhyming while rhyming more then one syllable and while not rhyming the same word while rhyming in the abab rhyme pattern.

 

[mobbinfms]

He wasn't getting better after 7DT stop. 7DT was better because he was more focused, had a good concept and had some of his best production. The fact that you have said 7DT is better than Illmatic is comical.

7DT is considered Pac's best album, yet it also received several average reviews. Im still waiting for you Pac stans to name a better album than Illmatic (not you Recipricol since you think it sucks ), or a better album top to bottom than It Was Written. Just based off influence Illmatic destroys 7DT.

7DT did not have Pac's best production. Most of the uneven reviews after it dropped were related to the production from all the no-names and the dark feel to the album - which was a drastic departure from AEOM.

Also - 7DT isn't universally regarded as Pac's best. An argument could be made for any of the last three. PAC was in a zone the year or two before he died and dropped classic after classic. However, in terms of technical complexity, none match Nas' first two.

 

[ISO]

Whats not to understand, the shyt is ever so simplistic. You hypin it up to be somethin that it aint. I was in Chicago in 94... with TWO albums in 94 named Resurrection stylistically and lyrically BETTER than Illmatic which came out the same year.

Pac released Keep Ya Head up in 93 >>>>>>> naS whole career
and it wasnt on some hippity hop that you EC cats give naS credit for changing. Ice Cube wasnt on that, Snoop was on that. Scarface wasnt on that. Niccaz that I listened to werent affected by illmatic, and were rapping BETTER when illmatic dropped.

Like I said, maybe in NY where niccaz sucked it was a game changer... but like @SunZoo said, E.1999 was >>>>> in OH

Illmatic along with 36 Chambers and Ready to Die brought interest back to NYC, you would see less alternative hip hop/conscious acts after. Flows started to slow down after Illmatic look at Jay before Illmatic and after. Illmatic didn't sell well, but it banged in the streets, you couldn't expect it to sell. Nas was debuting and NY wasn't selling as much as the West. Illmatic sparked a Queensbridge rennaissance look at how Mobb Deep and Capone N Noreaga blew up. Illmatic brought back the style of MC's like Kool G Rap and Rakim.

Just look at how other artists view Illmatic. Havoc has said how Illmatic was always on his brain and how it influenced Mobb Deep for The Infamous, Tupac himself was bumping to Illmatic in court, The Game told stories of him robbing Illmatic as a teen, Talib Kweli, Lupe Fiasco, Common and Kendrick Lamar have all praised the album. Elzhi made Elmatic his OWN Illmatic. Illmatic is one of the most sampled albums ever.

Face it breh Illmatic is the most influential album ever, and is better than any Pac album. Like I said it was the first album to get 5 mics from the Source and it has basically no bad reviews unlike Pac who has a lot of 3.5 albums in his catalog.

 

[mobbinfms]

I was answering your question. No, literary devices arent the only way, but it is the best way and the most abundant. The other way is HOW you write, which is why I invoke Twista. Twista doesnt use too many literary devices either, but certainly writes his shyt better than naS and anyone else for that matter. And of course I could give examples.

Basically I shut the door on naS lyricism. since he isnt close to the artists I list at the different types of lyricism. This started in the D'Evils thread, naS doesnt have lyricism that matches Jay on that song.

When you break it all down, naS is at a Pac level of lyricism.

My bad. I misunderstood you.

What do you mean by how you write? The complexity of the structure/flow?

 

[intilectual recipricol]

My bad. I misunderstood you.

What do you mean by how you write? The complexity of the structure/flow?

Yes, the rhyme schemes/flow or however you want to describe that.

for instance this random Twista verse... (its first)




youre not gonna get that from naS... naS flow is much more like Pac's. Its like tryin to tell who's flow is better, FABO or Ma$e... really, whats the difference?

 

[mobbinfms]

7DT is infinitely better than illmatic

"when I get vexed ima hijack a Delta" kinda bullshyt you listenin to mayne?

All Pac albums, even the posthumous albums are better than illmatic. Most are better than IWW (which I give 4/5 despite "nacho cheese, I'm Castro")

"stabbin betches like the phantom" this is just some fake thug lyrics... illmatic is ga'bage. Lets at least discuss a naS album that doesnt completely suck.

It's really not necessary for you to compare other albums to Illmatic at this point - it's widely known that you hate it.

In fact, is there an album that you think Illmatic is better than?

 

[mobbinfms]

But what makes albums the go-to criterion then? What if Nas dropped all of his most lyrical tracks on Illmatic and IWW and then declined in terms of lyricism on other albums whereas Pac spread his lyrical songs over the course of all his albums? How would Illmatic being more lyrical overall prove that he was the more lyrical rapper?

It's pretty clear that people are ducking this challenge like Money Mayweather. Mayweather can do so and still keep his credibility 'cause he's the undefeated champ. People with baseless claims on a message board can't because they're no one to the rest of the posters.

Albums are the go-to criterion b/c for nearly the entire history of hip-hop that has been the standard body of work. If rappers only released singles - then you'd have an argument.

What if schmut if. If Pac couldn't maintain a high level of lyricism on a single album - that most likely means he wasn't capable of doing it - otherwise - why wouldn't have have done it?

It's not that I'm ducking your challenge - I just think its a waste of time that doesn't demonstrate anything.

Anywho - out of the albums he released up to 7DT - which one was as technically complex as Illmatic?

 

[intilectual recipricol]

Illmatic along with 36 Chambers and Ready to Die brought interest back to NYC, you would see less alternative hip hop/conscious acts after. Flows started to slow down after Illmatic look at Jay before Illmatic and after. Illmatic didn't sell well, but it banged in the streets, you couldn't expect it to sell. Nas was debuting and NY wasn't selling as much as the West. Illmatic sparked a Queensbridge rennaissance look at how Mobb Deep and Capone N Noreaga blew up. Illmatic brought back the style of MC's like Kool G Rap and Rakim.

Just look at how other artists view Illmatic. Havoc has said how Illmatic was always on his brain and how it influenced Mobb Deep for The Infamous, Tupac himself was bumping to Illmatic in court, The Game told stories of him robbing Illmatic as a teen, Talib Kweli, Lupe Fiasco, Common and Kendrick Lamar have all praised the album. Elzhi made Elmatic his OWN Illmatic. Illmatic is one of the most sampled albums ever.

Face it breh Illmatic is the most influential album ever, and is better than any Pac album. Like I said it was the first album to get 5 mics from the Source and it has basically no bad reviews unlike Pac who has a lot of 3.5 albums in his catalog.

a few things...

A) you think I give a fukk what illmatic did for NY. So like I said, maybe there that shyt is all its hyped to be, but in the rest of the country that album is ass and had NO influence.

B) Lupe talks about IWW. Lupe is in my age group. We wasnt fukkin with illmatic, no one gave a fukc about it. IWW was another story. I like IWW.

C) Lil Kim got 5 mics. And the bullshyt magazines is partially what caused the East West shyt to pop off because of the EC bias. Lil Kim got 5 mics no one gives a fukc about mics. the album is trash.

 

[intilectual recipricol]

Albums are the go-to criterion b/c for nearly the entire history of hip-hop that has been the standard body of work. If rappers only released singles - then you'd have an argument.

What if schmut if. If Pac couldn't maintain a high level of lyricism on a single album - that most likely means he wasn't capable of doing it - otherwise - why wouldn't have have done it?

It's not that I'm ducking your challenge - I just think its a waste of time that doesn't demonstrate anything.

Anywho - out of the albums he released up to 7DT - which one was as technically complex as Illmatic?

all of them because illmatic wasnt complex at all. it was incoherent rambling.

It's really not necessary for you to compare other albums to Illmatic at this point - it's widely known that you hate it.

In fact, is there an album that you think Illmatic is better than?

No, not really. Its really that bad. There may be a birdman album its better than, but I wouldnt suffer through a birdman album like i did illmatic.

 

[mobbinfms]

Illmatic is a more influential album than any Pac album face that shyt breh. No matter what you think most people think the album is a master piece whether its current artists, historians or hip hop heads face that shyt breh. dude said Pac's posthumous albums are better. Can you please stop with the Nacho Cheese, Im Castro, one your not writing the full lyrics two Nas is Coming is the worse song on It Was Written. It would be annoying if I wrote "Jay Z he broke, and I smoke daily" on every page.

Also it's whenever frustrated, ima hijack Delta. It's another pop culture reference, Delta used to get hijacked a lot back in the day. When Nas is frustrated he's out of control like a hijacked plane.

In my PJ's my blend tape plays, bullets are strays
Young bytches is grazed each block is like a maze
Full of black rats, plus the Island is packed
From all I hear in the stories when my people's come back



NY State of Mind

Exactly - if you really think Nas is trash don't play games and misquote him.

 

[mobbinfms]

How can illmatic be influential when all the rappers of that day were already doin shyt? Make sense buddy. Maybe in NY where niccaz suck at rapping it was influential, but not anywhere else. Thats why it didnt sell, cuz no one gave a fukk about it.

And explaining bad lyrics doesnt make them better. Theres not a single lyrical or special thing about what you just quoted. nothing.

I read somewhere how DJ Premier was flabbergasted by that verse when he heard it.

I'll defer to Primo over you. Nothing personal.

 

[mobbinfms]

nah, truth... that was in response to Verbal Intercourse right? That shyt is trash.

Talkin about intergalactic scrolls
he was on his canibus shyt back then

Intergalactic scrolls?

 

[mobbinfms]

You said yourself this is all subjective, yet you throwing out some kinda consensus what is considered pac's best album...as if MATW isn't "the" defining 2pac album to most people, i feel like that is on par with/better than illmatic. If fact illmatic is probably the nas album i listen to the least besides nastradamus.

All that "influence" shyt is mostly relevant to the region it dropped in. Where i'm from E. 1999 may as well have been the "illmatic" from that era, i don't remember anybody listening to that shyt outside of YO/rap city.

Also, to be such a "focused" record from pac 7DT only took a couple days to write/record in total, given time away from the immediate drama i have no doubt he could have progressed from there.

I agree with that last part. I wonder to what extent Pac's focus on quantity detracted from quality. Instead of recording five tracks a night - he should have done five verses a week.

 

[mobbinfms]

Nah....All Eyez On Me is the most untouchable album of your lifetime.

AEOM was too surface. I prefer the "introspective" Pac more.