I played in both eras, I played against both of them. Jordan is the #GOAT - Ray Allen

[Perfectson]

Jordan is not averaging 45ppg Do nikkas really know basketball or are they living in an alternate reality. I’d give him 40ppg though.

And Bron doesn’t have the resume to be called better than Mike but he’s damn close. And keeping it a buck there’s things he flat does better than Mike did...not the mention he’s faced better comp.

Like if Lebron wins 2 more this convo might be legit because Lebron is the better overall player. But no one has Mike’s resume so it is what is

He's a better rebounder this Jordan and a better....

 

[Bigblackted4]

Let me get this straight....."just being able to jump by the rim" is something quantifiable to you?

I didn’t describe it well, but making people change their shot is the jest. Do you think Jordan was deterring people like a 6’9 270 lb athletic Demon

 

[Champ_KW]

You grew up watching Reggie on a team as the only option moving without the ball, with very few screen-actions, little-to-no help defense/switching and S/H+R because for starters he was one of a very, very few up to that point who'd anchor an offense by being a primary off-ball player. Teams' offensive anchors would primarily either get possessions in the low/mid/high post to capitalize on 1v1 weakside matchups. Because zone defense wasn't in rotation and the 3-pt shot wasn't utilized to the degree it is today, offenses didn't need a whole lot of misdirection, player movement, and ball movement to score points because all they needed to do was exhaust ISO opportunities over and over.

It was only until illegal defense was allowed that offenses were forced to find new ways to score, and thus, forced defenses to find new ways to stop them.

Except he is because he's been forced to take on more responsibility on both sides of the floor, due to his temperament/social conditioning, ability, team structure, competition, and as said above a more frequent offensive/defensive power struggle exchange. Because LeBron plays in essentially a positionless era, and he has more on-court power than any player in NBA history, it's developed areas of his game that other all-time greats couldn't because of the fixed roles they had. Hilarious that you ran in here saying "The turn this argument has taken shows what's wrong with this era. 90% of the conversation is about offense.", and then when the conversation of who's the more 'complete' player takes place, you proceed to list shyt that's 90% offense.

I say this respectfully, because I fukk with your posting for the most part, but passé shyt like this is why it's hard to get folks to see sense when they're stuck in the past; marginalizing what happens on the defensive end simply down to blocks/steals, without any context of role/responsibility. LeBron's greatest strengths on the defensive end lie in his ability as a traffic controller/help-defender, where he understands what actions teams are going to run and where he and his teammates need to be to cover that. MJ was never in a position where he had to take on those type of defensive duties, just like he wasn't in a position where he had to take the same level of offensive ones. As I said earlier, that doesn't necessarily make LeBron a better player, but it makes him more of a complete one.

You basically typed all that to show off your basketball acumen, and I respect that. However, everything you mention about Lebron takes a paragraph or two to explain. You don't have to adjust what you see based on "social conditioning" and other non quantifiable soft factors. What other role on defense does Lebron play that no other player in history played? So now calling out screens and playing safety means more than actually taking the ball from the opposition or blocking their shot? Be honest with yourself, when is the last time you've seen Bron dig in, get in a defensive stance, and play defense? I'm all for allowing nuance into these types of debates because they definitely need them, but you can't be considered "complete" when your offense starts the same way from the same spot on the floor. Can't be considered more "complete" than MJ when your free throws don't equal or better his. Can't be complete when there are hall of fame coaches on record saying their path to a title relies on the strategy of letting you shoot jumpers. Bron is a stat compiler that is very consistent. Nothing wrong with that. And that's before we get to their mentality. There's probably more footage of him being a mental midget and flopping than there is of him hitting turnaround jumpers.

 

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

"IVERSON AND KG
PLAYED BOTH ALSO...

WE KNOW WHO THEIR GOAT IS.

SO THATS ATLEAST 5 RIGHT THERE.

EVERYBODY KNOWS MIKE
WOULD AVERAGE 40 IN THIS LEAGUE.

A 5'8 PG JUST AVERAGED 30."

As it's already been mentioned in this thread, a player of similar statue with less scoring ability (Michael Adams) averaged 26 during that era. You had players like Dantley, Ellis, Chambers, English (players whose skillsets pale in comparison to the elite scorers of today) averaging 30 ppg or close to it during MJ's era.

 

[FunkDoc1112]

It's always hilarious to watch these arguments take place. Facts vs feelings.

 

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

You basically typed all that to show off your basketball acumen, and I respect that. However, everything you mention about Lebron takes a paragraph or two to explain. You don't have to adjust what you see based on "social conditioning" and other non quantifiable soft factors.

What I mean by "social conditioning", is that because LeBron plays during the Information Age where everything he does is under the microscope, he starts off at more of a historical deficit than players from previous eras (MJ experienced a similar thing when previous generations/players shytted on the era he played in), therefore, it's forced him to chase a standard drowned in basketball schmaltz, that's not reflective of reality. Which is part of the reason why he tries to have full control of everything on the court. Because nothing he does is ever enough to folks who mythologize Jordan and the greats that have come before him.

It's why he's become more of a complete player, because everything around him since he became perceptive of it has forced him to take on more responsibility to live up to this image that doesn't exist.

What other role on defense does Lebron play that no other player in history played?

I'm talking about all the roles he plays as a collective. He doesn't play any role that no other player in history hasn't played, but he plays more of them than any other player in history.

So now calling out screens and playing safety means more than actually taking the ball from the opposition or blocking their shot?

But you see, LeBron plays does all those things.

Which is what I'm trying to point out: MJ's role on defense was primarily M2M defense, not "calling out screens and playing safety", because he played during a period where you didn't need a player like that to the same degree as you do now (as mentioned above, in a predominately ISO-based landscape with fewer moving parts you didn't need a safety-type defender), and the big men would generally assume that position because of the fixed roles.

It's why the average player today is more complete, than the average player 20-30+ years ago.

Be honest with yourself, when is the last time you've seen Bron dig in, get in a defensive stance, and play defense?

One of my main critiques of LeBron's play in recent times has been his lack of effort on the defensive end, which is partly because he's forced himself into taking such a heavy workload on offense, and then he ends up needing to do similar on the defensive end. Jordan didn't have to worry about that shyt in the backend of his career, because he had the likes of Pippen and Harper to take the majority of the perimeter defensive reps, so he could focus primarily on scoring, and leaving the bulk of other shyt to his teammates to take care of.

I'm all for allowing nuance into these types of debates because they definitely need them, but you can't be considered "complete" when your offense starts the same way from the same spot on the floor..

Don't the majority of primary ball-handlers who run the offense start the same way, from the same spot on the floor? And let's not act like LeBron didn't switch up shyt in Miami where he added more strings to his bow. Again, I don't see the sense in layering this point when MJ's possessions primarily consisted of weakside 1v1s.

Can't be considered more "complete" than MJ when your free throws don't equal or better his.

Really? You're really gonna use free throws as a main talking point to hang your argument on?

Can't be complete when there are hall of fame coaches on record saying their path to a title relies on the strategy of letting you shoot jumpers.

I see we're back to this "90% offense" talking point that you criticized this era for.

No matter how many different ways you want to point out that Jordan has a better jump shot, it doesn't add any more notable weight to your argument that he's a more complete player. The funny thing about this is, LeBron has improved his jumpshot over the years to the point where it becomes a genuine lining when discussing how complete his game is, because he's proven that it's no longer a weakness for him.

Bron is a stat compiler that is very consistent. Nothing wrong with that. And that's before we get to their mentality. There's probably more footage of him being a mental midget and flopping than there is of him hitting turnaround jumpers.

That's one thing I believe that separates the two (if it's only marginally) when we're talking about who the better player is, not necessarily because LeBron is a "mental midget", but because he has a pass-first nature. Because even though LeBron has him covered in most areas, I value scoring (particularly in terms of style, exigency and mentality) above all else, because those things have more impact than anything else in the game.

 

[Lord_Chief_Rocka]

As it's already been mentioned in this thread, a player of similar statue with less scoring ability (Michael Adams) averaged 26 during that era. You had players like Dantley, Ellis, Chambers, English (players whose skillsets pale in comparison to the elite scorers of today) averaging 30 ppg or close to it during MJ's era.

This is bullshyt number one

You guys just have bias against those eras.

Again y’all ninjas talk out of both sides of your mouths. Nobody has averaged triple doubles at 30 ppg since Oscar. Since this is the toughest era, why aren’t they in your top 5-10. Doesn’t make any sense.

 

[Lord_Chief_Rocka]

If the 1980s were much more difficult to score in, explain:

Bernard King 32.9, Karl Malone 31.0, Adrian Dantley 30.7, Dominique Wilkins 30.7, Larry Bird 29.9, Alex English 29.8, Mark Aguirre 29.5, Kiki Vandeweghe 29.4, Purvis Short 28.0, Clyde Drexler 27.7, Dale Ellis 27.5, Tom Chambers 27.2, Glen Rice 26.8, Kelly Tripucka 26.5, Chris Mullin 26.5, Michael Adams 26.5, Kevin McHale 26.1


Those guys didn't just have one big scoring year either, a lot of them were putting up numbers year in and year out. And that's not even a full list, I didn't name the Hakeems, Robinsons, Barkleys, Moses, Jordan himself, etc. There were way more players putting up numbers back then, and a lot of them did it with a lot less game too.


Now, explain how I named SIX White American dudes who could put up 26-30ppg in Jordan's era, mostly without even shooting any threes to do it, when there are ZERO White Americans who have put up more than 26.1ppg for a season in the last 20 years?








Wait, I just said that ppg alone is a useless way to judge players, and now you're saying "my logic" is to prop guys up on ppg alone?

Westbrook is an athletic marvel who had a ridiculous green light to do whatever he wanted all season long, had one of the highest usage rates in NBA history, and still only averaged 31.6ppg. And that was a wild anomaly - otherwise he only averaged over 25.4 once in his career, and that was just 28.

Harden is the perfect example of how to ultimately game the system, shooting 10 threes a game and flopping to 10+ fts a game for a coach that lets him get incredible usage numbers for a fast-paced team. And he still only broke 30ppg once, and just barely.

And the last couple years were the fastest-paced out of the last 20 too.

You're gonna use two guys who each just barely broke 30ppg once, and in unique situations, as your example for why a player could get 45ppg in this era?

Ninja I wasn’t only bringing up ppg. I’m talking numbers.

Your whole posts are just long winded bullshyt. It’s very simple. It’s very simple... if putting up numbers is so much harder today... why don’t u have Westbrook and Harden in your top 5.

This will be 3 straight years above 25 8 8 in the “toughest era”

 

[Lord_Chief_Rocka]

This ninja @Rhakim thinks he’s making points going to random years and pulling numbers

 

[Lord_Chief_Rocka]

Smart dumb ninjas don’t even get that they’re making my point.

Offensive styles are better today

Analytics have improved offenses

But all these ninjas that put up big numbers before these modern offenses and analytics would somehow be worse today

 

[Bigblackted4]

As it's already been mentioned in this thread, a player of similar statue with less scoring ability (Michael Adams) averaged 26 during that era. You had players like Dantley, Ellis, Chambers, English (players whose skillsets pale in comparison to the elite scorers of today) averaging 30 ppg or close to it during MJ's era.

Dantley was very skilled why’d you add him in here

 

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

Dantley was very skilled why’d you add him in here

Because his skillset isn't remotely comparable to the likes of LeBron, Durant and Curry.

 

[Bigblackted4]

Also can y’all stop comparing to the 80s the pace was high af they took about 10 more shots then than now also teams ran offense to get there best players shots more often than they do now sans, the Phoenix Suns.

 

[Bigblackted4]

Because his skillset isn't remotely comparable to the likes of LeBron, Durant and Curry.

But it is comparable to Carmelo Anthony

 

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

This is bullshyt number one

You guys just have bias against those eras.

Reality isn't bullshyt. Do you honestly believe the likes of Dantley, Chambers, Ellis, English etc have equal ability to Durant?

Again y’all ninjas talk out of both sides of your mouths. Nobody has averaged triple doubles at 30 ppg since Oscar. Since this is the toughest era, why aren’t they in your top 5-10. Doesn’t make any sense.

What exactly are you trying to say here?