Nah.
I played in both eras, I played against both of them. Jordan is the #GOAT - Ray Allen
- Thread starter Alexander The Great
- Start date
handles have nothing to do with scoring
You're right, players only develop their handle for applause.
If a guard has a trash jump shot, developing a strong handle isn't going to help him score at all.
Yes, you have to be a transcendent talent to succeed as a White guy in the NBA today because there is far more competition.
Guys growing up in the 1960s/1970s were playing ball when basketball wasn't very popular, there was 1/10th as much American competition and no international talent at all. Of course there is going to be fewer talented players in times when the talent pool is smaller.
You're the guy who would be saying, "I watched these guys play in Oregon and they were putting up 30 points/game without even knowing what they were doing. Imagine how could those guys would be in Cali!"
There is more talent today. Basketball is way more popular than before, 5 times as many Americans play the sport seriously than played in the 1970s, and WAY more people play internationally. Overall, there's ten times as much competition as before, so obviously there's ten times as much talent.
Michael Jordan averaged 37ppg tops in an era with faster pace, more free throws, worse defense, less talent, and the best players played more minutes. Now, in an era with slower pace, fewer free throws, better defense, more talent, and playing fewer minutes.....he'd somehow score more points?
That doesn't make any sense.
Because at this point in history you have to be an idiot to think that points/assists/rebounds totally out of context define a player.
You must think that Westbrook is better than Durant because he had a better points/assists/rebounds year.
Smart dumb ninjas don’t even get that they’re making my point.
Offensive styles are better today
Analytics have improved offenses
But all these ninjas that put up big numbers before these modern offenses and analytics would somehow be worse today
There's literally no hope for you.
Guess what, this might blow your mind, but it's easier to score against inferior competition.
Kiki VanDeWeghe scored 29-5-3 on 56% shooting in that era so he'd put up, what, 35-8-8 today?
You must think that Paul Arazin would be incredible today because he was repeatedly putting up 25-10-3 type numbers when offensive style was really bad.
A non-balling coli poster asking NBA players, HOFers at that, if they know basketball
LMFAOOOOOO
Just in case some of ya'all need a reminder about that mythical great 1980s defense.
Game 7 of the NBA Finals should have the best defense of the year, right? And the late-1980s Pistons were one of the defensive greats, right? In fact, this game includes:
Michael Cooper (8-time All-Defensive team including 5 1st-team selections and 1987 DPOY)
Dennis Rodman (8-time All-Defensive team including 7 1st-team selections, 1990 and 1991 DPOY)
Joe Dumars (6-time All-Defensive team including 4 1st-team selections and often named as one of the greatest defenders MJ ever faced)
A.C. Green (All-Defensive team selection in 1989)
Rick Mahorn (All-Defensive team selection in 1990)
John Salley (averaged 1.7 blocks/game in 1988)
Bill Laimbeer (one of the all-time famous NBA goons)
Kareem Abdul-Jabar (not at his 11-time All-Defensive team level but still averaged 1.2 blocks/game in 1988)
Magic Johnson (One of the GOATs and 1980s stans claim his defense would translate just fine to the modern era)
So you have basically two entire starting lineups of elite defenders. And what does it get you?
1:04 Worthy gets uncontested jumper from the top of the key. Didn't even move to get there, just waited in place, open, until Magic passed the ball
1:15 Dantley drives to the hoop with no resistance from A.C. Green, who doesn't even put his hands up, and gets an easy bucket. Refs call the and-1 there too even though it's not even clear what the contact was.
1:20 Magic backs up to the hoop joke easy with no resistance and makes an uncontested hook from three feet
1:30 When the Pistons inexplicably triple-team Kareem 10 feet from the hoop, he passes to a wide-open Cooper who then feeds Worthy for an easy hook inside
1:40 Cooper strangely doubles James Edwards 20 feet from the hoop, leaving Dumars wide open for an uncontested three
1:50 Dantley splits the defense but short-arms the ball from five feet, Cooper takes the ball all the way back for an easy fast-break layin
2:10 Worthy makes a nice post move, but how does he get 5 feet from the hoop without a double?
2:20 Kareem holds the ball far too long and has it batted away, leading to an open fast-break hoop for Dumars on the other end
2:35 Another triple-team of Kareem leads to a strong inside score by Worthy
2:45 Magic airballs the layin on the fast break, Dumars misses the layin on the fast break the other way, but Salley follows with a dunk
And the game continues like that - the 2nd half might be even worse. If defense was so good in the 1980s, then why are most mid-range jumpers and threes uncontested? How are they getting open shots without even needing meaningful off-ball movement to set them up? Why are players getting backed down so easily? Why are defenders double-teaming and triple-teaming in the wrong spots on the court at the wrong times? And why the CONSTANT fast breaks? Lakers scored 20 fast-break points in the first half alone. Of an NBA Finals Game 7 against an elite defensive team!!!
And if that's the Finals with a good defensive team, imagine what the regular season was like against bad teams. This is how teams averaged 110ppg in that era without even getting many threes. It was just a layup line and open jump shots for long sections of the game in the 1980s.
Game 7 of the NBA Finals should have the best defense of the year, right? And the late-1980s Pistons were one of the defensive greats, right? In fact, this game includes:
Michael Cooper (8-time All-Defensive team including 5 1st-team selections and 1987 DPOY)
Dennis Rodman (8-time All-Defensive team including 7 1st-team selections, 1990 and 1991 DPOY)
Joe Dumars (6-time All-Defensive team including 4 1st-team selections and often named as one of the greatest defenders MJ ever faced)
A.C. Green (All-Defensive team selection in 1989)
Rick Mahorn (All-Defensive team selection in 1990)
John Salley (averaged 1.7 blocks/game in 1988)
Bill Laimbeer (one of the all-time famous NBA goons)
Kareem Abdul-Jabar (not at his 11-time All-Defensive team level but still averaged 1.2 blocks/game in 1988)
Magic Johnson (One of the GOATs and 1980s stans claim his defense would translate just fine to the modern era)
So you have basically two entire starting lineups of elite defenders. And what does it get you?
1:04 Worthy gets uncontested jumper from the top of the key. Didn't even move to get there, just waited in place, open, until Magic passed the ball
1:15 Dantley drives to the hoop with no resistance from A.C. Green, who doesn't even put his hands up, and gets an easy bucket. Refs call the and-1 there too even though it's not even clear what the contact was.
1:20 Magic backs up to the hoop joke easy with no resistance and makes an uncontested hook from three feet
1:30 When the Pistons inexplicably triple-team Kareem 10 feet from the hoop, he passes to a wide-open Cooper who then feeds Worthy for an easy hook inside
1:40 Cooper strangely doubles James Edwards 20 feet from the hoop, leaving Dumars wide open for an uncontested three
1:50 Dantley splits the defense but short-arms the ball from five feet, Cooper takes the ball all the way back for an easy fast-break layin
2:10 Worthy makes a nice post move, but how does he get 5 feet from the hoop without a double?
2:20 Kareem holds the ball far too long and has it batted away, leading to an open fast-break hoop for Dumars on the other end
2:35 Another triple-team of Kareem leads to a strong inside score by Worthy
2:45 Magic airballs the layin on the fast break, Dumars misses the layin on the fast break the other way, but Salley follows with a dunk
And the game continues like that - the 2nd half might be even worse. If defense was so good in the 1980s, then why are most mid-range jumpers and threes uncontested? How are they getting open shots without even needing meaningful off-ball movement to set them up? Why are players getting backed down so easily? Why are defenders double-teaming and triple-teaming in the wrong spots on the court at the wrong times? And why the CONSTANT fast breaks? Lakers scored 20 fast-break points in the first half alone. Of an NBA Finals Game 7 against an elite defensive team!!!
And if that's the Finals with a good defensive team, imagine what the regular season was like against bad teams. This is how teams averaged 110ppg in that era without even getting many threes. It was just a layup line and open jump shots for long sections of the game in the 1980s.
get these nets
Veteran
There was a call made back in the day call illegal defense....first was warning.....after that other team gets a free throw
if you were standing around not guarding anybody or within arm's length...you got whistled for illegal defense
this would explain the spot double or triple teaming certain players.....there's no zone back then like now, you had to be actively guarding somebody
James Edwards came in the game to score....so if he's in the game it makes sense to double him and force the ball out of his hands.....if he's touching it, they just ran a play for him to score
Despite all the indisputable evidence posted in this thread about how bad defense was in the 80s, muh'fukkas will still carry on believing otherwise. And this is why we can't have proper discussions on this board because folks would rather believe in childhood fairytales than reality.
You're right, players only develop their handle for applause.
who has better handles? kyrie or jordan? answer is kyrie. kyrie has all the crossovers in his arsenal. jordan didn't.
but who is better scorer? better at getting to the rim? it's jordan.
same logic applies to drexler.
i ain't saying drexler is jordan, but drexler in his prime was pretty good. if drexler played in today's league he would still be a top 10 player.
all you need is a functional handles like jordan and drexler had plenty of them.
do you think stockton did any fancy and 1 crossovers?
obviously he excelled at basketball without doing any of the moves russ or kyrie did. all that fancy between the leg moving side to side dribbles aren't necessary to the game of basketball. go watch blake griffin working on dribbles on youtube.
oh wow look at this awesome handle!
he can do all the moves. but who would take? blake griffin or charles barkley? blake knows more moves, has better range, better athleticism, and taller.
i'll take barkley who just knows how to play basketball.
Saying that Jordan is a greater scorer than Kyrie is nothing like saying that Kyrie's handles don't help him score. Kyrie's handles are a MAJOR reason why he's as good a scorer as he is.
It's like saying, "Klay is a better shooter than Harden, but Harden is a better scorer, therefore shooting doesn't help you score."
Goddamn, of course shooting helps you score, it's just not the only thing. Just like strong handles.
Shot, handles, moves, athleticism, height, and basketball IQ are all part of the scoring game.
Drexler had great height for the 1980s/90s but only average today. He had an average shot for then but his shot would be one of the worst in the league for an offensively-minded shooting guard today. He had decent handles back then but today they would be trash. He was maybe the biggest shooting guard in the game but would only be average today. His bball IQ was already challenged back then and would be even more of a liability today. And he was maybe second only to Jordan as the most athletic guard back then, but would only be above-average today.
Drexler back then was a very big, very athletic shooting guard with average handles and an average shot who sometimes had mental lapses. That was enough to be a perennial All-NBA selection and finish #2 to MJ in MVP voting. Drexler today would be a Josh Jackson-level prospect - a big athletic swing who can play defense when he wants to and get to the hoop, but whose shot is ugly and handles need work.
Breh, he literally had to look at the ground when he dribbled.
And barely used his left. But Stockton was not an elite scorer, was he? Career 13ppg, topped out at 17ppg and that was during the high-pace late 80s/early 90s. After 1991 he was never better than 15pg.
And in the 1990s, a 6' tall White point guard could be 1st-team All-NBA without having an elite handle or athleticism. That's not as easy today.
I know what illegal defense is.
The double was objectively bad. Look at the play:
Why is Cooper leaving the Piston's #3 scorer wide open in order to help Kareem with a big man 20 feet from the hoop when there are three other Pistons stacked in the key? Even if you want to double Edwards in that situation, there are THREE Lakers all the way over on the weak side of the floor with their men all in the key. One of them should be bringing the double, it's just stupid to bring the double from the strong side and away from the one guy for whom Edwards can make the easiest pass and who is the hardest for another guy to come and cover.
That's great evidence of what I've said many times before - players had no idea how to double in the 1980s. There was no structure to it, and so they made awful decisions leaving the wrong players wide open in the wrong spots all the time.
The other one is even worse:
So they're triple-teaming Kareem by overplaying him to the WRONG side of the basket??? Dumars and Salley are guarding no one there, they're totally lost, it's basically a 4-on-2 for the rest of the play. How da hell do you create a 4-on-2 in the halfcourt by dumping the ball to a 40-year-old big man 10 feet from the hoop?
That was supposed to be one of the greatest defensive teams of the era, and they repeatedly look lost. It's not like those open players were created by great offensive sets or spacing - there were hardly any 3pt-shooters on the court, there's minimal off-ball movement, and the sets are simple. Defenders just didn't game plan what to do in different situations nearly as effectively as they do today.
This doesn't even make any sense. Follow your argument through properly:Smart dumb ninjas don’t even get that they’re making my point.
Offensive styles are better today
Analytics have improved offenses
But all these ninjas that put up big numbers before these modern offenses and analytics would somehow be worse today
You're acknowledging that "offensive styles" are better today and "analytics have improved offenses", which means defenses are also better because they've had to catch up with the improvement of offenses. Those ninjas from previous eras would be playing against better defenses if they played today, therefore it stands to reason they wouldn't be as good/productive.
So you're telling me that Ray Allen could say "MJ would average 65 ppg in today's league", and anyone that used "stats" to prove it's not possible would be wrong?Did the usual suspects come in here trying to discredit HOF Ray Allen’s (who actually played in the NBA and did shyt with his life) opinion again with “stats”?
LMAO I CAN TELL YOU NEVER PLAYED BALL.
IF MJ TOOK 6 THREES A GAME
HE WOULD SHOOT THEM BETTER.
nikkaS KEEP TALKING ABOUT DEFENSES
LIKE CURRY, BRON, KD, HARDEN ETC
DONT RUN THE PICK AND ROLL
AND WIND UP WITH A MISMATCH
DAMN NEAR EVERY POSITION.
JORDAN PLAYING IN THIS CURRENT LEAGUE
WITH BIGS TRYING TO SWITCH OUT ON HIM
WOULD BE HILARIOUS.
I SAW BRON SCORE 50 PTS IN THE FINALS
ON SWITCHES ALL fukkING GAME.
MJ WOULD AVERAGE 40 EASY IN THIS PICK AND ROLL LEAGUE.
SURROUND HIM WITH SHOOTERS
AND ITS OVER.
STOP SPEAKING ON PPL YOU DIDNT SEE PLAY.
HE SHOT 39%
DENVER RAN A GIMMICK OFFENSE,
THAT SEASON,
WERE THE WORSE TEAM IN THE NBA.
NUMBER 1 SCORING TEAM IN THE LEAGUE
AND GOT OUTSCORED BY 11PTS A GAME.
THE EPITOME OF PADDING STATS ON A GARBAGE TEAM.
MEAN WHILE I.T. HAD THE NUMBER 1 SEED
AND MADE THE ECF.
The lack of common Sense these dudes have is so sad
All his shyt has been debunked in this thread. He was out here saying Durant would only average 27 ppg back in the 80s, when lesser players were averaging more......
All his shyt has been debunked in this thread. He was out here saying Durant would only average 27 ppg back in the 80s, when lesser players were averaging more......
Yeah
That's silly
All his shyt has been debunked in this thread. He was out here saying Durant would only average 27 ppg back in the 80s, when lesser players were averaging more......
I WAS SPEAKING ON THE 90S THOUGH.
