I played in both eras, I played against both of them. Jordan is the #GOAT - Ray Allen

[Supreme365]

you realize how stupid you sound? defense is better now? get da fukoutta here.






there are plenty of tony allen type back in the day breh. nikkas with a same mentality. they ain't talented on paper. they don't even look all that athletic. but they annoying as fuk. in the crunch time they pride themselves to stop you and out will you. that's the mentality today's players dont have.

if you ever hooped for real you will know these nikkas are out there with a bad breath and they ripe as fuk. every time they come near you they shoot sweat





you just exposed yourself.





simple always wins.

Defense in the 80’s to early 90’s was not better than today I’m not saying that the players weren’t as good defensively but the rules didn’t allow for much besides hard trapping... zone defense wasn’t allowed which means you can load one side of the floor and have your best scorer on the weak side going iso. Compared to today where players are allowed to defend an area and don’t have to stick to their man... I watched those games from the 80’s it was great ball but not the bloodbath you’ll make it out to be

And yeah you right every era has had tony Allen types but imagine if zone defense didn’t allow tony to have so much help against kd, if this was the 80’s/90’s kd would’ve been able to iso Allen and he would’ve torched him along with any other defender

You don’t know hoops the way you think you do
You’ll bring up this glorious 80’s/early 90’s defense but leave out the fact that league scoring was at an all time high

Defense was a slugfest and super physical during the mid 90’s to mid 00’s

 

[FunkDoc1112]

See that's where you failed. It's not about "MJ can score a lot....." It's about the ONE night where they were offensively unstoppable and posted their best offensive game of their career, what else did they bring to the table? You're so geared up to defend Bron with random 40 point games, that you couldn't even understand the premise.

What's not getting through to your head? It doesn't mean shyt that they're their highest scoring games, it still says absolutely nothing in the grand scheme of things as far as your argument is concerned because you're cherry picking statlines.

You can't use two games individual games played under wildly different circumstances (one was a blowout, one was a game that went to overtime, etc) to make an insanely broad point. If you're gonna try to use box scores to make a point you better have a large sample size.

 

[Champ_KW]

What's not getting through to your head? It doesn't mean shyt that they're their highest scoring games, it still says absolutely nothing in the grand scheme of things as far as your argument is concerned because you're cherry picking statlines.

You can't use two games individual games played under wildly different circumstances (one was a blowout, one was a game that went to overtime, etc) to make an insanely broad point. If you're gonna try to use box scores to make a point you better have a large sample size.

I need a bigger sample size for who? You? Man, cut it out. If you're gonna nuance everything up, then nobody could ever compare opposing players. Count every game if you want to....Bron doesnt have a 69 and 18 game. Add all the games you want, Bron doesnt have a season with 200 steals or 100 blocks. Count all the games you want, Bron was the best scorer in a season 1 time in his career while MJ was 10 times. Slice it how you want, MJ was the better overall player. Now watch you limp in with the only two stats that are nuanced (assist=relying on how often you have the ball and someone else scoring; rebound=relying on where you're positioned on the court and team makeup) to try and overcompensate for Bron.

 

[FabTrey]

Defense in the 80’s to early 90’s was not better than today I’m not saying that the players weren’t as good defensively but the rules didn’t allow for much besides hard trapping... zone defense wasn’t allowed which means you can load one side of the floor and have your best scorer on the weak side going iso. Compared to today where players are allowed to defend an area and don’t have to stick to their man... I watched those games from the 80’s it was great ball but not the bloodbath you’ll make it out to be

And yeah you right every era has had tony Allen types but imagine if zone defense didn’t allow tony to have so much help against kd, if this was the 80’s/90’s kd would’ve been able to iso Allen and he would’ve torched him along with any other defender

You don’t know hoops the way you think you do
You’ll bring up this glorious 80’s/early 90’s defense but leave out the fact that league scoring was at an all time high

Defense was a slugfest and super physical during the mid 90’s to mid 00’s

mid 80's to early 90's were the peak of the NBA because of a beautiful pace, great spacing, and a ball movement. that's why the game was beautifully played by grown men who graduated from college. you get coached by dean smith for 4 years, you become good at something called basketball. you think zeke is just great all by himself? he got coached by a maniac cac coach who don't give no fuk about ISOs. he learned how to play basketball proper way. and so did everybody else.

and scoring almost always about the style of basketball.

2003-2004 phoenix suns team average 94pts
2004-2005 phoenix suns team average 110pts


THAT'S ALL YOU NEED TO KNOW ABOUT SCORING.


why did n phoenix suns averaged 110 in 2005? year before suns were averaging 94. it's the brand of basketball. with the favorable rule change and run and gun offense they led the league in scoring average not because they are most talented, but because it's how they played the game especially with a new general on the floor who ain't the most talented player, but knew how to play PG beautifully within the system. are they any less talented if they were coached by larry brown instead of dantoni and just grind out wins in half court basketball?


and let's talk about the talent. back then league had plenty of unathletic nikkas, but they made up with efforts and understanding the game of the basketball. todays we have nikkas who are athletic, but has no concept on how to play as a team.

nikkas like gerald green who can jump out of the gym ain't no better than some no name nikka played in the 80s who look like a baller from Y cuz that guy at least know how to play within the system, how to play his role, and how to compliment to the team. there are plenty of them

watch showtime lakers and bird's celtics and tell me you aren't wowed by the beautiful pace and ball movement. there's is a reason why chuck, kenny and pretty much every old school ballers say today's game is unwatchable at times cuz they've seen the beautiful version of basketball. they lived in it and they know what they are watching isn't a good brand of basketball.

it's like when i play hoop with anybody over 30s and 40s, the game is played beautifully. but when i ball with young nikkas?

 

[Jplaya2023]

Yall arguing with dudes that dont remember the last 10 years of their lives and your listening to their opinion about a guy who played in his prime 25 years ago

 

[Supreme365]

mid 80's to early 90's were the peak of the NBA because of a beautiful pace, great spacing, and a ball movement. that's why the game was beautifully played by grown men who graduated from college. you get coached by dean smith or larry brown for 4 years, you become good at something called basketball. you think zeke is just great all by himself? he got coached by a maniac cac coach who don't give no fuk about ISOs. he learned how to play basketball proper way. and so are everybody else.

todays we have nikkas who are athletic, but has no concept on how to play as a team. they learned how to shoot cuz league demands it, but have absolutely zero basketball IQ. nikkas like gerald green who can jump out of the gym ain't no better than some no name nikka played in the 80s who look like a baller from Y cuz that guy at least know how to play within the system, how to play his role, and how to compliment to the team.

watch showtime lakers and bird's celtics and tell me you aren't wowed by the beautiful pace and ball movement. there's is a reason why chuck, kenny and pretty much every old school ballers say today's game is unwatchable at times cuz they've seen the beautiful version of basketball.

it's like when i play hoop with anybody over 30s, the game is played beautifully. but when i ball with young nikkas?

Compare 80’s spacing and ball movement to today’s league

You’re nostalgia glasses to thick

And I see you had no rebuttal for the 80’s to early 90’s defense

 

[MikelArteta]

lol cats are acting like even a 40 year old garbage knees jordan didnt avg 22

isaiah thomas averaged 30 a game but mj would struggle

 

[Lord_Chief_Rocka]

Some of ya'all make no sense. Jordan never even broke 33.6ppg in the expansion-era 1990s, but he could average 45ppg in a much tougher era?

Jordan peaked at 37ppg in the no-defense 1980s. Let's compare:

1980s: pace varied from 100-103
2010s: pace varied from 91-97

1980s: teams shoot 28-30 free throws
2010s: teams shoot 21-24 free throws

Not to mention that Jordan played 40.4 minutes/game in 1988. LeBron led the league with just 36.9 minutes/game in 2018, because players run more on both ends than they used to and injuries are way up.

Not to mention that defense was FAR worse in the 1980s.

So Jordan averaged about 35ppg in the late 1980s....but now with fewer minutes, fewer free throws, playing at a slower pace, against better defenders, he's gonna average 10ppg more.

Ya'all don't live in reality.



In 1987 and 1988 the Denver Nuggets averaged 117ppg just making fast breaks all game and were only 4th in the NBA in scoring. Guys like Blair Rasmussen and Danny Schayes were scoring damn near 15ppg each for that team. The average team was getting 110ppg in 1987 without even shooting threes.


And for the ultimate proof....what should be the #1 hardest defense of the whole year? Game 7 of the Finals, right? The two best teams playing in the biggest game of the biggest series...and this is what it looked like:



Uncontested hook shots from 3 feet away. Wide open jumpers. Guys being backed in with no resistance. Random-ass doubling and confusion all over the defensive side. Fast break after fast break, not just on turnovers but even on just regular rebounds. Lakers scored 20 fast break points in the first half alone.

That's the era ya'all are propping up as so much tougher to score than this one.





He was the GOAT scorer because he could average 37ppg one year....not because he could mythically average 10 more than that.

So explain Westbrook and Harden the last 2 years if this era so much harder to get numbers in


You should have both of them in your top 10 based on your logic

 

[Lord_Chief_Rocka]

IVERSON AND KG
PLAYED BOTH ALSO...

WE KNOW WHO THEIR GOAT IS.

SO THATS ATLEAST 5 RIGHT THERE.

EVERYBODY KNOWS MIKE
WOULD AVERAGE 40 IN THIS LEAGUE.

A 5'8 PG JUST AVERAGED 30.



​

 

[FabTrey]

Compare 80’s spacing and ball movement to today’s league

You’re nostalgia glasses to thick

And I see you had no rebuttal for the 80’s to early 90’s defense

you still dont get it do you? you said mid to late 90's NBA was tough on D, but it ain't about the tough D, it's that game got slowed down. yes they played physically and played tough D, but that doesn't mean they are 10-15pts better than 80's or early 90's. they averaged lower because of the pace.




P

A

C

E


and who dictates the pace? it's the coaches. shooting 3s on fast breaks got you benched. ISOs weren't allowed unless you are jordan or nique.


80's teams would've scored in low 90s if they were played at slower pace. but they didn't they were running up and down. why? well, it's the copy cat league. well the game always have been fast paced, but showtime and celtics took it to another level which brought the excitement. and they had stamina to do it. today's players carry too much muscles that aren't really functional. it's like MMA where will see nikkas with too much muscle gasses out so quickly.


and suns offense exploded because that's what they decided to do and they could do it because they had right players. i laugh at those who questions Nash's MVP. you could argue somebody else deserved it more, but that suns team went from scoring 94 to 110.


and defense has nothing to do with amount of points you give up. 04 pistons were great defensive team. on paper they were much better than the bad boys. but self respecting pistons fans know they weren't better than bad boy pistons.

 

[Professor Emeritus]

If the 1980s were much more difficult to score in, explain:

Bernard King 32.9, Karl Malone 31.0, Adrian Dantley 30.7, Dominique Wilkins 30.7, Larry Bird 29.9, Alex English 29.8, Mark Aguirre 29.5, Kiki Vandeweghe 29.4, Purvis Short 28.0, Clyde Drexler 27.7, Dale Ellis 27.5, Tom Chambers 27.2, Glen Rice 26.8, Kelly Tripucka 26.5, Chris Mullin 26.5, Michael Adams 26.5, Kevin McHale 26.1


Those guys didn't just have one big scoring year either, a lot of them were putting up numbers year in and year out. And that's not even a full list, I didn't name the Hakeems, Robinsons, Barkleys, Moses, Jordan himself, etc. There were way more players putting up numbers back then, and a lot of them did it with a lot less game too.


Now, explain how I named SIX White American dudes who could put up 26-30ppg in Jordan's era, mostly without even shooting any threes to do it, when there are ZERO White Americans who have put up more than 26.1ppg for a season in the last 20 years?

So explain Westbrook and Harden the last 2 years if this era so much harder to get numbers in


You should have both of them in your top 10 based on your logic

Wait, I just said that ppg alone is a useless way to judge players, and now you're saying "my logic" is to prop guys up on ppg alone?

Westbrook is an athletic marvel who had a ridiculous green light to do whatever he wanted all season long, had one of the highest usage rates in NBA history, and still only averaged 31.6ppg. And that was a wild anomaly - otherwise he only averaged over 25.4 once in his career, and that was just 28.

Harden is the perfect example of how to ultimately game the system, shooting 10 threes a game and flopping to 10+ fts a game for a coach that lets him get incredible usage numbers for a fast-paced team. And he still only broke 30ppg once, and just barely.

And the last couple years were the fastest-paced out of the last 20 too.

You're gonna use two guys who each just barely broke 30ppg once, and in unique situations, as your example for why a player could get 45ppg in this era?

 

[FabTrey]

If the 1980s were much more difficult to score in, explain:

Bernard King 32.9, Karl Malone 31.0, Adrian Dantley 30.7, Dominique Wilkins 30.7, Larry Bird 29.9, Alex English 29.8, Mark Aguirre 29.5, Kiki Vandeweghe 29.4, Purvis Short 28.0, Clyde Drexler 27.7, Dale Ellis 27.5, Tom Chambers 27.2, Glen Rice 26.8, Kelly Tripucka 26.5, Chris Mullin 26.5, Michael Adams 26.5, Kevin McHale 26.1


Those guys didn't just have one big scoring year either, a lot of them were putting up numbers year in and year out. And that's not even a full list, I didn't name the Hakeems, Robinsons, Barkleys, Moses, Jordan himself, etc. There were way more players putting up numbers back then, and a lot of them did it with a lot less game too.


Now, explain how I named SIX White American dudes who could put up 26-30ppg in Jordan's era, mostly without even shooting any threes to do it, when there are ZERO White Americans who have put up more than 26.1ppg for a season in the last 20 years?








Wait, I just said that ppg alone is a useless way to judge players, and now you're saying "my logic" is to prop guys up on ppg alone?

Westbrook is an athletic marvel who had a ridiculous green light to do whatever he wanted all season long, had one of the highest usage rates in NBA history, and still only averaged 31.6ppg. And that was a wild anomaly - otherwise he only averaged over 25.4 once in his career, and that was just 28.

Harden is the perfect example of how to ultimately game the system, shooting 10 threes a game and flopping to 10+ fts a game for a coach that lets him get incredible usage numbers for a fast-paced team. And he still only broke 30ppg once, and just barely.

And the last couple years were the fastest-paced out of the last 20 too.

You're gonna use two guys who each just barely broke 30ppg once, and in unique situations, as your example for why a player could get 45ppg in this era?

and yet you bring up dale davis, chambers, tripucka and etc who all were pretty much 1 hit wonders


double standard much?


and king, bird, drexler, mchale, nique, malone etc were great players

 

[Professor Emeritus]

and yet you bring up dale davis, chambers, tripucka and etc who all were pretty much 1 hit wonders


double standard much?


and king, bird, drexler, mchale, nique, malone etc were great players

How is it a double standard?

He was able to come up with two names, both great players, one of whom was a one-hit wonder under ridiculous circumstances.

I threw out 22 names. Sure, a few were one-hit wonders, but not under any sort of ridiculous 40% usage rates like Westbrook.

And if you're gonna start claiming that Aguirre, Kiki, Purvis, Tripucka, Adams were anything close to the player that Westbrook is....

Even Clyde Drexler had a far more limited offensive game than Westbrook. His jumper was broke (even more so than Westbrook's is), and his handle was inferior. Yet that was MJ's #2 rival for a while.

 

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

Advanced defensive schemes??? Are you serious? I grew up watching Reggie Miller run full speed thru multiple screens with a defender chasing with maximum effort and other players showing and trapping.

You grew up watching Reggie on a team as the only option moving without the ball, with very few screen-actions, little-to-no help defense/switching and S/H+R because for starters he was one of a very, very few up to that point who'd anchor an offense by being a primary off-ball player. Teams' offensive anchors would primarily either get possessions in the low/mid/high post to capitalize on 1v1 weakside matchups. Because zone defense wasn't in rotation and the 3-pt shot wasn't utilized to the degree it is today, offenses didn't need a whole lot of misdirection, player movement, and ball movement to score points because all they needed to do was exhaust ISO opportunities over and over.

It was only until illegal defense was allowed that offenses were forced to find new ways to score, and thus, forced defenses to find new ways to stop them.

And LeBron is not the more complete player.

Except he is because he's been forced to take on more responsibility on both sides of the floor, due to his temperament/social conditioning, ability, team structure, competition, and as said above a more frequent offensive/defensive power struggle exchange. Because LeBron plays in essentially a positionless era, and he has more on-court power than any player in NBA history, it's developed areas of his game that other all-time greats couldn't because of the fixed roles they had. Hilarious that you ran in here saying "The turn this argument has taken shows what's wrong with this era. 90% of the conversation is about offense.", and then when the conversation of who's the more 'complete' player takes place, you proceed to list shyt that's 90% offense.

And Bron does not measure up on defense. MJ has six seasons with 200 steals, Bron has none. In fact, MJ totaled 123 steals in his last season as a 39/40 year old man. Bron hasn't seen that total since he was 28/29 years old. The smaller MJ has two seasons with 100 blocks. Bron has zero. So no, Bron does not measure up in both defense or overall.

I say this respectfully, because I fukk with your posting for the most part, but passé shyt like this is why it's hard to get folks to see sense when they're stuck in the past; marginalizing what happens on the defensive end simply down to blocks/steals, without any context of role/responsibility. LeBron's greatest strengths on the defensive end lie in his ability as a traffic controller/help-defender, where he understands what actions teams are going to run and where he and his teammates need to be to cover that. MJ was never in a position where he had to take on those type of defensive duties, just like he wasn't in a position where he had to take the same level of offensive ones. As I said earlier, that doesn't necessarily make LeBron a better player, but it makes him more of a complete one.

 

[FabTrey]

How is it a double standard?

He was able to come up with two names, both great players, one of whom was a one-hit wonder under ridiculous circumstances.

I threw out 22 names. Sure, a few were one-hit wonders, but not under any sort of ridiculous 40% usage rates like Westbrook.

And if you're gonna start claiming that Aguirre, Kiki, Purvis, Tripucka, Adams were anything close to the player that Westbrook is....

Even Clyde Drexler had a far more limited offensive game than Westbrook. His jumper was broke (even more so than Westbrook's is), and his handle was inferior. Yet that was MJ's #2 rival for a while.

handles have nothing to do with scoring

and post their career averages not pick and choose a season.

i'll take drexler over westbrook anytime anyday. cacs back in the day knew how to play the basketball. i mean only reason why cacs today suck is because american cacs just give up too easily. but we saw manu, dirk and etc thrive. i ain't saying they can drop 25+ on today's game. they ARE NOT TRANSCENDENT TALENTS.

and we are talking about fukin michael jefferey jordan and not some random cacs who benefited from early to mid 80's favorable style of basketball that created more opportunities to score.


i'm talking about this jordan.

1. Michael Jordan* • CHI 37.1
2. Dominique Wilkins* • ATL 29.0
3. Alex English* • DEN 28.6
4. Larry Bird* • BOS 28.1

show me today's player who were 8pts better than the next guy. you can't. jordan was something else. only reason he didn't average 35pts in early 90s is because of phil and triangle.