jilla82
Veteran
and that 50% is from a time when you could legally put hands on the man w/ the ball
In Playoffs, Jordan is a career 50.0% on game-winning/tying shots w/in 24 sec (Link)
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jilla82
Veteran
People wrote books/headlining newspaper & magazine articles.
Jordan most def had a lot of hate going his way.
iceberg_is_on_fire
Wearing Lions gear when it wasn't cool
Contrary to what was said earlier in this thread, I live in Northwest Indiana. I had no choice but to watch the Bulls. I know all of the nuances of those teams. I also know this, Michael Jordan didn't have too many bad games. He only has one single digit scoring game as a Bull
Is that 50% fg in GW/T shots in the playoffs statline manufactured too? Or did he really make those? Sounds to me like it's a double-edged sword...cause that's far and away better than Kobe's statline and better than Lebron's. It's a shame that he didn't do those things in today's overscrutinized era. In my opinion, people wouldn't care about being an @sshole, winning is all that matters in sports and he won. If anything, being a winner combined with being an @sshole would have merely been a reflection of today's overly cynical society - he would have been worshipped as an anti-hero instead. Let's face it, a lot of Kobe hate comes from his female-like tendecies. Jordan wasn't a hoe and never got b1tched around by anyone in the league.
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he only shot 18 attempts tho 
i love this. now lets address the facts. WHO was Jordan shooting over to hit the shots or miss the shots. well lets see.
1985 Bucks 3 Make Makes GW shot w/ 22 seconds left -Guarded by a 6'3 sg -(Sidney Moncrief0 or (Paul Pressey- 6'5 guard/forward) but remember this guy probably had to check the bulls SF(gene banks who was also 6'7 guard-forward)
1986 Celtics 2 Miss Misses GW w/ 4 sec left in overtime-Guarded by a 6'4 sg (Dennis Johnson)
1989 Cavaliers 4 Miss Misses GW shot w/ 2 sec left -Guarded by a 6'6(long arms) but very unathletic Craigh Ehlo
1989 Cavaliers 5 Make Makes potential GW w/ 6 sec left - Guarded by a 6'6(long arms) but very unathletic Craigh Ehlo
1989 Cavaliers 5 Make Makes GW shot at the Buzzer -Guarded by a 6'6(long arms) but very unathletic Craigh Ehlo
1989 Pistons 3 Make Makes GW shot w/ 3 sec left -Guarded by a 6'2 Vinnie Johnson(AD had to guard pippen). Or if it was the next season in 89. he was guarded by 6'3 Joe dumars
1991 Lakers 1 Miss Misses GW shot w/ 6 sec left - guarded by a 6'4 byron scott
1991 Lakers 3 Make Makes GT shot w/ 3 sec left guarded by a 6'4 byron scott
1992 Trail Blazers 2 Miss Misses GW shot w/ 2 sec left -guarded by a 6'7 athletic superstar SG
1993 Cavaliers 4 Make Makes GW shot at the Buzzer - Guarded by a 6'6(athletic solid defender -Gerald Wilkins)
1996 Knicks 3 Make Makes GT shot w/ 19 sec left - guarded by a 6'6 Allan Houston(who had ZERO defense and was that athletic, great shooter and being smooth was what he was known for. not being athletic or a defender. actually he was known as a non defender)
1996 Knicks 3 Miss Misses GW shot at the Buzzer - guarded by a 6'6 Allan Houston(who had ZERO defense and was that athletic, great shooter and being smooth was what he was known for. not being athletic or a defender. actually he was known as a non defender)
1997 Wizards 3 Miss Misses GW shot w/ 11 sec left - guarded by Calbert Cheaney - 6'7, some what athletic, solid defender.
1997 Jazz 1 Make Makes GW shot at the Buzzer -Byron Russell(athletic 6'7 SF that was a solid defender or it was over Jeff hornacek-6'3 soft non defender, unathletic.
1997 Jazz 4 Miss Misses GT shot w/ 10 sec left - Byron Russell(athletic 6'7 SF that was a solid defender or it was over Jeff hornacek-6'3 soft non defender, unathletic.
1998 Pacers 4 Miss Misses GW shot at the Buzzer - guarded by 6'7 frail unathletic reggie miller(that was still a decent defender)
1998 Jazz 5 Miss Misses GW shot at the Buzzer - guarded by Byron Russell(athletic 6'7 SF that was a solid defender or it was over Jeff hornacek-6'3 soft non defender, unathletic.
1998 Jazz 6 Make Makes GW shot w/ 5 sec left -- guarded by Byron Russell(athletic 6'7 SF that was a solid defender
Yall see a theme here. half the guys were 2 to 3 inches shorter then MJ and or a lot less athletic, only a couple of times did he matchup with a guy that was his height that was also athletic and he still made those game winners. there's a reason for that. its harder to shoot over a solid defender that can jump as high and is as quick as you are and is as strong as you are not worrying about-possibly being overpowered. so he gets props for making some of those tough shots over those good defenders. shoot he gets props regardless. but lets keep everything in context of what really occured before yall start comparing him to LBJ's winners or kobe's winners.
LBJ is like MJ where he is in his own arena as far as size, build, and athletic ability. no one else is like that in this league right now. thats exactly how MJ was.
So LBJ also benefits from being much bigger/taller, more athletic then the guys he's going up against. this is why you have to respect kobe. he's the only one that came in and had to play guys his size, his athletic ability, etc or more so. but still came out on top. that means his SKILL trumps his opponents. Mjay's athleticism and LBJ's athleticism and size got them by for awhile before they got those SKILLS. its like dwight vs say Hakeem. dwight is going mostly on size, and pure athletic ability. granted you have to have some skill otherwise Deandre jordan and Mcgee should be two superstars with their athletic ability. but you get the point. hakeem was SCHOOLING people with pure skill. sure he had athletic ability. but it was nothing like a dwight. who is riding on his athletic ability rather then learned skill.
1985 Bucks 3 Make Makes GW shot w/ 22 seconds left -Guarded by a 6'3 sg -(Sidney Moncrief0 or (Paul Pressey- 6'5 guard/forward) but remember this guy probably had to check the bulls SF(gene banks who was also 6'7 guard-forward)
1986 Celtics 2 Miss Misses GW w/ 4 sec left in overtime-Guarded by a 6'4 sg (Dennis Johnson)
1989 Cavaliers 4 Miss Misses GW shot w/ 2 sec left -Guarded by a 6'6(long arms) but very unathletic Craigh Ehlo
1989 Cavaliers 5 Make Makes potential GW w/ 6 sec left - Guarded by a 6'6(long arms) but very unathletic Craigh Ehlo
1989 Cavaliers 5 Make Makes GW shot at the Buzzer -Guarded by a 6'6(long arms) but very unathletic Craigh Ehlo
1989 Pistons 3 Make Makes GW shot w/ 3 sec left -Guarded by a 6'2 Vinnie Johnson(AD had to guard pippen). Or if it was the next season in 89. he was guarded by 6'3 Joe dumars
1991 Lakers 1 Miss Misses GW shot w/ 6 sec left - guarded by a 6'4 byron scott
1991 Lakers 3 Make Makes GT shot w/ 3 sec left guarded by a 6'4 byron scott
1992 Trail Blazers 2 Miss Misses GW shot w/ 2 sec left -guarded by a 6'7 athletic superstar SG
1993 Cavaliers 4 Make Makes GW shot at the Buzzer - Guarded by a 6'6(athletic solid defender -Gerald Wilkins)
1996 Knicks 3 Make Makes GT shot w/ 19 sec left - guarded by a 6'6 Allan Houston(who had ZERO defense and was that athletic, great shooter and being smooth was what he was known for. not being athletic or a defender. actually he was known as a non defender)
1996 Knicks 3 Miss Misses GW shot at the Buzzer - guarded by a 6'6 Allan Houston(who had ZERO defense and was that athletic, great shooter and being smooth was what he was known for. not being athletic or a defender. actually he was known as a non defender)
1997 Wizards 3 Miss Misses GW shot w/ 11 sec left - guarded by Calbert Cheaney - 6'7, some what athletic, solid defender.
1997 Jazz 1 Make Makes GW shot at the Buzzer -Byron Russell(athletic 6'7 SF that was a solid defender or it was over Jeff hornacek-6'3 soft non defender, unathletic.
1997 Jazz 4 Miss Misses GT shot w/ 10 sec left - Byron Russell(athletic 6'7 SF that was a solid defender or it was over Jeff hornacek-6'3 soft non defender, unathletic.
1998 Pacers 4 Miss Misses GW shot at the Buzzer - guarded by 6'7 frail unathletic reggie miller(that was still a decent defender)
1998 Jazz 5 Miss Misses GW shot at the Buzzer - guarded by Byron Russell(athletic 6'7 SF that was a solid defender or it was over Jeff hornacek-6'3 soft non defender, unathletic.
1998 Jazz 6 Make Makes GW shot w/ 5 sec left -- guarded by Byron Russell(athletic 6'7 SF that was a solid defender
Yall see a theme here. half the guys were 2 to 3 inches shorter then MJ and or a lot less athletic, only a couple of times did he matchup with a guy that was his height that was also athletic and he still made those game winners. there's a reason for that. its harder to shoot over a solid defender that can jump as high and is as quick as you are and is as strong as you are not worrying about-possibly being overpowered. so he gets props for making some of those tough shots over those good defenders. shoot he gets props regardless. but lets keep everything in context of what really occured before yall start comparing him to LBJ's winners or kobe's winners.
LBJ is like MJ where he is in his own arena as far as size, build, and athletic ability. no one else is like that in this league right now. thats exactly how MJ was.
So LBJ also benefits from being much bigger/taller, more athletic then the guys he's going up against. this is why you have to respect kobe. he's the only one that came in and had to play guys his size, his athletic ability, etc or more so. but still came out on top. that means his SKILL trumps his opponents. Mjay's athleticism and LBJ's athleticism and size got them by for awhile before they got those SKILLS. its like dwight vs say Hakeem. dwight is going mostly on size, and pure athletic ability. granted you have to have some skill otherwise Deandre jordan and Mcgee should be two superstars with their athletic ability. but you get the point. hakeem was SCHOOLING people with pure skill. sure he had athletic ability. but it was nothing like a dwight. who is riding on his athletic ability rather then learned skill.
who was MJ playing in the playoff most years? Some 6'4 short shooting guard.
who did MJ say guarded him best? JOE DUMARS. how tall was dumars? 6'4 MAX. dumars wasnt even that athletic. he was a very strong dude at that height and very smart defensively. in addition he could score in his prime. so he made mj work.
but if kobe says who defended him best. he would name some 6'5 to 7 foot(kevin durant) guy with a 7 foot mans wingspan. thats the kind of players kb had to look at every night. because of all the MJ clones in the nba from kobe on down to vince.
thats my point. i remember when kobe was being guarded by Anthony peeler during his early years. i remember how easy it was for kobe to just raise up and BAM easy money.
from 2002 to 2003 games where kobe played a short but athletic and solid defender in Anthony peeler. now we know others guarded kobe as well. but arguments sake lets just say it was peeler. kobe fg%48, 3pt-40%, 25ppg. and this is still not a prime kobe. and this kobe still isnt the #1 goto guy like mjay was his entire career .that was shaqs team steal back then.
i'm telling you if kobe had the chance to play vs midgets and unathletic guys when you do find someone his height his entire career. his fg% we would at or around 48%, and his 3 ball would be at or around 40%. those two stats together = a little over 50% true shooting percentage.
mike benefited from shorter, not as athletic, to frail players. at his position. thats a known fact mj worshipers dont like to bring up.
all that info would've been brought up back then. this is the era of not just the net. but the stat geek.
kobe is a winner beyond winners. and yet he still has to hear people talk wreckless like he aint won squat. its mind boggling. thats why the idea of "winning trumps everything" isnt true in this new internet age. you have to be likeable by all. if mj was in the net age. he wouldnt be liked by everyone. the gambling thing that blew up then disappeared out of thin air would've never disappeared. that would've went with him and stayed with him. just like that eagle, co thing went with kb and stayed with him even though it never even went to trial.
Kobe taking more shots yet still making less. 
to this ridiculous sh!t....
i not sure about the other games but i saw a documentary on this one and they said they rotated the whole lineup to take turns trying to shut down jordan. Meaning it wasn't just dennis guarding him. this makes your whole post seem suspect because jordan was getting double and tripled teamed every game and yet you make seem like he was going one on one with wack players. in reality he was battling the entire team. unless you're trying to make the claim that the goat never got double teamed.
What about Jordan, at age 38, dropping 25, 5 and 5 in his first year with the Wizards up until the All-Star break? He had to fall back cause of injury? How about Jordan dropping 43 point points as a 38 year old? Or scoring 51 points in 2002 a month before he was to turn 39? Is 2002 modern enough for you?
During the 2002-2003 season, in his last 30 games Jordan was 40 years old....he became the only 40 yr old player to ever score 20 ppg, the only 40 year old player ever to score 40 or more points in a game. He was the oldest scoring champion ever at age 35 (1998). He was the oldest to score 50 or more points at age 38. If Jordan was able to do this as a 40 year old on the Wizards, what in the fukking world makes you think he wouldn't shyt on this current league (where you can no longer touch the perimeter player) at age 25??!!!!
Oh and Kobe was shooting three airballs in the playoffs, with the whiteboys John Stockton and Jeff Hornacek D'ing up on him. While Jordan was winning titles against those very same players. The fact that Kobe was 18, shouldn't matter against old unathletic white guys like Stockton and Hornacek should it?
I'll do you one better, I'm going to compile you a list of who Kobe shot 7/25 against in the playoffs, so we can all see who these world star players are.
Old man Jordan torching Kenyon Martin, Richard Jefferson and Aaron Williams for 43 points, remember, Jordan was a low post player on the Wizards and yet he still dropped 40+ on players who were all taller than him. The Nets were the Eastern Conference champs two years in a row during that time.
http://www.basketballreference.com/teams/boxscore.htm?yr=2002&b=20030221&tm=was
superunknown23
Superstar
Everyone knows that Kobe balled against alien defenders who suddenly entered the league in 2002, hence his 7-25What about Jordan, at age 38, dropping 25, 5 and 5 in his first year with the Wizards up until the All-Star break? He had to fall back cause of injury? How about Jordan dropping 43 point points as a 38 year old? Or scoring 51 points in 2002 a month before he was to turn 39? Is 2002 modern enough for you?
During the 2002-2003 season, in his last 30 games Jordan was 40 years old....he became the only 40 yr old player to ever score 20 ppg, the only 40 year old player ever to score 40 or more points in a game. He was the oldest scoring champion ever at age 35 (1998). He was the oldest to score 50 or more points at age 38. If Jordan was able to do this as a 40 year old on the Wizards, what in the fukking world makes you think he wouldn't shyt on this current league (where you can no longer touch the perimeter player) at age 25??!!!!
Oh and Kobe was shooting three airballs in the playoffs, with the whiteboys John Stockton and Jeff Hornacek D'ing up on him. While Jordan was winning titles against those very same players. The fact that Kobe was 18, shouldn't matter against old unathletic white guys like Stockton and Hornacek should it?
I'll do you one better, I'm going to compile you a list of who Kobe shot 7/25 against in the playoffs, so we can all see who these world star players are.
Old man Jordan torching Kenyon Martin, Richard Jefferson and Aaron Williams for 43 points, remember, Jordan was a low post player on the Wizards and yet he still dropped 40+ on players who were all taller than him. The Nets were the Eastern Conference champs two years in a row during that time.
02/21/2003 NBA Box Score at was - basketballreference.com
kobe was a child then and was not the goto guy. didnt have the green light at all. apples to oranges.What about Jordan, at age 38, dropping 25, 5 and 5 in his first year with the Wizards up until the All-Star break? He had to fall back cause of injury? How about Jordan dropping 43 point points as a 38 year old? Or scoring 51 points in 2002 a month before he was to turn 39? Is 2002 modern enough for you?
During the 2002-2003 season, in his last 30 games Jordan was 40 years old....he became the only 40 yr old player to ever score 20 ppg, the only 40 year old player ever to score 40 or more points in a game. He was the oldest scoring champion ever at age 35 (1998). He was the oldest to score 50 or more points at age 38. If Jordan was able to do this as a 40 year old on the Wizards, what in the fukking world makes you think he wouldn't shyt on this current league (where you can no longer touch the perimeter player) at age 25??!!!!
Oh and Kobe was shooting three airballs in the playoffs, with the whiteboys John Stockton and Jeff Hornacek D'ing up on him. While Jordan was winning titles against those very same players. The fact that Kobe was 18, shouldn't matter against old unathletic white guys like Stockton and Hornacek should it?
I'll do you one better, I'm going to compile you a list of who Kobe shot 7/25 against in the playoffs, so we can all see who these world star players are.
kobe aint 38 yet. so lets see. an old mj could score still. but what was his fg% looking like vs guys his height, his athletic ability, once he had less athleticism and needed to use shooting and skill to get his points?
that fg% looks bad bruh.
Michael Jordan on the Wizard's | Basketball-Reference.com
and it proves my point. when you can no longer out jump, and out quick, and out strong your opponent how much skill do you have? well we see it in the fg%. which was obviously a lot lower.
kobe's fg% is all over the place at different points in his career. because ulike MJ. kobe had different roles. his original role was off the bench behind another allstar. since he was 17 when he came in. MJ was a grown man when he got into the nba.
kobe then had to defer to shaq for all those years.
then kobe had to take a zillion shots with all 5 guys guarding him since he played with smush, kwame, cook, walton. worse teammates then any other superstar ever. prove me wrong. i dare you.
then he got gasol. then his percentages went up again. then he had the finger injuries. we aint talking sprains. we're talking tears and arthritis that still isnt right. something MJ never went thru. MJ had that one bad break early on and never had anything that would effect his shoot or ball handling, athleticism, until he got old and became a wizard. this fool kobe has had shoulder Tears on his shooting hand(strong hand). finger issues, multiple fingers. then last year he had the torn ligament in his wrist on his shooting hand. playing vs guys his height or taller, his size or bigger, his athletic ability or more so. with a legal zone defense to boot. i promise you mjya's fg% would've been down if he had to follow kobe's career path. and if you compare that wiz year 3pt% it shows you he couldnt really shoot that three without his hops.
everything he did was based on his athletic ability.
Tayshaun prince- 7'2 wingspan (and athletic, known defender)Everyone knows that Kobe balled against alien defenders who suddenly entered the league in 2002, hence his 7-25
Andrei Kirilenko -7'3 or so wingspan and he's like 6'10 or so athletic(known defender actually was leading the league in blks one season until he got hurt)
Shawn marion is another one with a ridiculous wingspan, i couldn find the exact numbers but we know its above 7 feet.he's very athletic, solid defender).
kevin durant is darn near 7 feet tall with a 7'5 wingspan.
LBJ is 6'9 with similar wing span to KD's. i bet yall didnt know that.
just to give you a little something. pips wingspan was ridiculous as well at like 7'3. but guess who pip played for? Chicago. so thats one less alien mj ever had to deal with on defense.
Sorry, but MJ has never had to endure that many ALIENS throughout his career.
well sorry, i saw the games.
yes it was dennis johnson PRIMARILY guarding him.
then when it wasnt. it was some slow of foot taller guy.
one way or another Mike had an OBVIOUS on paper advantage before the ball was tipped. and it aint nothing wrong with that. it aint his fault. but its a reality most people dont bring up. because that will spoil the mood.
i'm 6'2. i dare you to guard me if you're 5'9 or shorter. i will back you down. fake, turn bucket. back you down, fake turn, bucket. back you down, fake turn..bucket. what are you going to do to stop it? NOTHING. lets say you can jump for your height. fine. i'll let you block one or see how high you jump one time when you've made me miss a shot. then the next play i'll fake turn, UP fake, watch you go flying. step thru. BASKET and probalby an AND 1 to boot.
YOU'RE TOO SHORT.
now in my hey day, let me play some guy that was 6'2 to 6'4 or so, that was Soft, unlathletic slower guy. dribble dribble, lul you to sleep. make you step up. then blow by you with ease. Layup. layup, layup. what are you going to do about it? NOTHING you cant keep up with me. i'm too athletic.
that was MJ's entire career. its LBJ's current career. beast smaller, not nearly as strong guys, shoot over the midgets, and jump over anyone else who tries to stop you.
kobe's peers looked more like kobe then they did like joe dumars or john starks.
the real reason kobe use to destroy the spurs back in the day was because they didnt have anyone that could match up with him. height/athleticism.
the reason he had a hard time with the KG celtics. is because you have a 6'5 ray ray thats athletic(he just doesnt use it often), 6'7 or so pierce, athletic enough, solid defender, rondo with a 7 foot man's wingspan , very athletic, Tony Allen 6'5 VERY athletic. the KG on the help at 6'11-7 feet, athletic.
MJ has never in his life seen a team like that. then throw in coach TT's super zone. faaagetabout it.