Is Ginobili top 10 SG of all time?

[duckbutta]

What you mean like Drexler who averaged 20+ ppg for his entire career at near 50% shooting?

No he doesn't. And this isn't just about primes, it's about what they've done over their careers. Like I said he's had an incredible HOF career, but he's also been in a more fortuitous situation than 99% of SGs in the modern era. If he didn't end up on a team with the greatest PF of all time, one of the the greatest coaches of all time and one of the most underrated players (Parkers) in recent memory, he wouldn't even have half the team success and yall wouldn't be speaking about him in this undeserving light.

Parker spent the 1st half of his career not being able to make a shot outside of 12 feet...as good as he is now lets not act like teams went years packing the paint against him like he was 7 foot and letting hims shoot brick after brick after brick...

So Prime Manu was playing with a young point guard who couldn't shoot

So that leaves him with an all time great in Duncan...and an all time Great in Pop...

You know who is not an all time great...

Francisco Elson

Devin Brown

Avery Johnson

George HIll

Garret Temple

Roger Mason

Outside of Timmy and Pop Manu didn't get a whole lot of help...

The amount of disrespect for Gigoatli...dudes out here talking like he was just hanging around eating off all time great players where he spent a portion of his time being the guy right behind Duncan...

I can see an argument for these guys but to say that Ray, Reggie, and anyone like that is outright better than Manu is :yeah ok:

And a more fortuitous situation? What?:yeah ok: Ray spent the last 4th of his career playing in a weak ass eastern conference surrounded by HOF players (KG Pierce Wade Bron ) really good players who could still be HOF depending on how the rest of their career goes (Bosh and Rondo...actually Bosh is probably in already) doing nothing but running around screens and hitting 3's against teams that can barely win 40% of their games...:yeah ok:

Meanwhile the entire division that the Spurs play in might make the playoffs...:yeah ok:

Literally half the playoff spots are taken by teams in the southwest division and the pelicans are just 2 games out of the 8th spot :yeah ok:

But Manu got it easier than everyone else:yeah ok:

 

[NoMorePie]

He's better than Clyde Drexler..

 

[Teko]

The "if he would have started more or got more minutes" argument is silly as hell.
i could say if he started more and got more minutes it would have cut into his longetivity and he would've had more injuries.
If he played more minutes in the nba then he wouldn't have been as successful during the
olympic run.
shyt's completely silly to act like he'd just play much more minutes and still have the same career trajectory but greater.

on point. I have seen him literally panting and putting up bad shot after bad shot when he plays more minutes. He is a great impact player though

 

[SmoothOperator]

.

 

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

Parker spent the 1st half of his career not being able to make a shot outside of 12 feet...as good as he is now lets not act like teams went years packing the paint against him like he was 7 foot and letting hims shoot brick after brick after brick...

So Prime Manu was playing with a young point guard who couldn't shoot

Parker was still the #2 option during the season when they won that 2003 Championship, and Manu was about the fourth/fifth option.

Parker's first three seasons playing with Manu (FG%) - 46%, 44%, 48%
Manu's first three seasons playing with Parker (FG%)- 43%, 41%, 47%

And this is with Parker taking 2-3 more shots per game as well. But I thought Parker couldn't shoot though?

Let's take it a step further -

Parker was hitting 37% on total jumpers and Ginoboli was hitting 32% on jumpers in 2002/2003
Parker was hitting 34% on total jumpers and Ginoboli was hitting 32% on jumpers in 2003/2004
Parker was hitting 36% on total jumpers and Ginobili was hitting 38% on jumpers in 2004/2005.

Parker was hitting 36% on midrange jumpers (308 attempts) and Ginobili was hitting 24% on jumpers (37 attempts) in 2002/2003
Parker was hitting 36% on midrange jumpers (302 attempts) and Ginobili was hitting 33% on jumpers (86 attempts) in 2003/2004
Parker was hitting 40% on midrange jumpers (345 attempts) and Ginobili was hitting 28% on jumpers (71 attempts) in 2004/2005

So basically you're talking shyt about Parker not being able to hit shots outside of 12 feet in the first half of his career and you're talking shyt about 'Prime Manu' having to play with a PG that couldn't shoot, when in fact he was the one that couldn't shoot.

So that leaves him with an all time great in Duncan...and an all time Great in Pop...

Nah it really leaves Manu as being a third option for the majority of his career.

You know who is not an all time great...

Francisco Elson

Devin Brown

Avery Johnson

George HIll

Garret Temple

Roger Mason

at these blatant selective collection of players across multiple seasons.

Outside of Timmy and Pop Manu didn't get a whole lot of help...

What you're failing to realize is that Manu was part of the help. And why are you still talking like Ginobili played more of a role than Parker did?

The amount of disrespect for Gigoatli...dudes out here talking like he was just hanging around eating off all time great players where he spent a portion of his time being the guy right behind Duncan..:

Parker was the guy right behind Duncan. Ginobili started off as a fourth/fifth option then upgraded to third option and that's where he's stayed, in fact you could argue he's been behind Kawhi for the last 18 months.

Ginobili has never been ahead of Parker

I can see an argument for these guys but to say that Ray, Reggie, and anyone like that is outright better than Manu is :yeah ok::

Ray Allen played 19 seasons, the all-time leader in 3-pt made FGs, averaged 18.9 ppg on 45% over his career and basically had a decade stretch putting up 21-26 ppg playing close to 40 mins.

Reggie Miller played 18 seasons, was the all-time leader in 3-pt made FGs (now second to Allen), averaged 18.2 ppg on 47% shooting over his career and had a 12-season stretch averaging 18-24 ppg playing 35 minutes plus.

They're both outright better than Ginobili, it's a non-argument. I highly doubt Ginobili would have lasted as the #1/#2 option playing 35-40 minutes for more than a decade, let alone putting up similar numbers on the similar efficiency.

And a more fortuitous situation? What?:yeah ok: Ray spent the last 4th of his career playing in a weak ass eastern conference surrounded by HOF players (KG Pierce Wade Bron ) really good players who could still be HOF depending on how the rest of their career goes (Bosh and Rondo...actually Bosh is probably in already) doing nothing but running around screens and hitting 3's against teams that can barely win 40% of their games...:yeah ok:

So he basically spent six-seven seasons (the tail end of his career), playing in the exact same situation that Ginobili has been playing in for his entire career? Are you forgetting the bulk of his career where he played in Milwaukee and Seattle as the #1 option putting up 20+ ppg? Are you forgetting that he led the Sonics and Bucks deep into the playoffs on back-to-back seasons putting up 25/26 ppg on 47% shooting?

When has Ginobili done anything in his career that even comes close to resembling that?

Ginobili came into this league with a silver spoon in his mouth (winning a Championship in his debut season despite being a fourth/fifth option, averaging single-digit scoring on shytty shooting percentages).

If he had a similar career trajectory to the average SG since 2002, he wouldn't have achieved shyt in his career.

Meanwhile the entire division that the Spurs play in might make the playoffs...:yeah ok::

Meanwhile Ginobili is still the third/fourth option for the Spurs.

But Manu got it easier than everyone else:yeah ok:

Manu got it easier than every single other SG since 2002. He never had to do any heavy lifting throughout the regular season, averaged less than 30 minutes for his entire career (career high 31.0 minutes), played on limited minutes over the past four seasons to save himself for the postseason (averaged 23.7 minutes a game over that span), all the while his team consistently had one of the best records, played alongside the greatest PF in history for his entire career, played with one of the greatest coaches for his entire career and played in the greatest system in the modern era.

Ole boy had it easy.

 

[William F. Russell]

mj, kobe, wade, clyde drexler, oscar robertson, ray allen, george gervin, pistol pete, mitch richmond, allen iverson, reggie miller, tmac, vince carter

ginobili might not crack top 20.

What about his international accomplishments and his accolades (NBA and FIBA)?

 

[William F. Russell]

Edit.

 

[William F. Russell]

I guess it depends on how you view the top 10...

If you talking NBA only...and you talking stats...I can see how you leave him out...dude spent some seasons not playing enough minutes to even be nominated for the 6th man award...

You talking about winning...the list of SG with 4 titles is very short...you talking about coming up big in big moments...been their done that...you talking about his international career...dude is easily the most decorated international player of ALL TIME...dude has a gold medal and has won a title in every league he has ever played in...

So if we talking about the regular season...I can see putting 10 other two guards on the floor in front of him...

But the money season? The 16 game season...nope...only guys getting major minutes at the two over him are Jordan and Kobe...everyone else is playing a MAX of 24 minutes cause Manu is playing the other 24

LOL at some of these list...AI spent 90% of his career playing point and now we putting him in front of Gigoatli at the 2

Best post in this thread.

 

[William F. Russell]

I guess it depends on how you view the top 10...

If you talking NBA only...and you talking stats...I can see how you leave him out...dude spent some seasons not playing enough minutes to even be nominated for the 6th man award...

You talking about winning...the list of SG with 4 titles is very short...you talking about coming up big in big moments...been their done that...you talking about his international career...dude is easily the most decorated international player of ALL TIME...dude has a gold medal and has won a title in every league he has ever played in...

So if we talking about the regular season...I can see putting 10 other two guards on the floor in front of him...

But the money season? The 16 game season...nope...only guys getting major minutes at the two over him are Jordan and Kobe...everyone else is playing a MAX of 24 minutes cause Manu is playing the other 24

LOL at some of these list...AI spent 90% of his career playing point and now we putting him in front of Gigoatli at the 2

What about D-Wade?

 

[Liquid]

I guess it depends on how you view the top 10...

If you talking NBA only...and you talking stats...I can see how you leave him out...dude spent some seasons not playing enough minutes to even be nominated for the 6th man award...

You talking about winning...the list of SG with 4 titles is very short...you talking about coming up big in big moments...been their done that...you talking about his international career...dude is easily the most decorated international player of ALL TIME...dude has a gold medal and has won a title in every league he has ever played in...

So if we talking about the regular season...I can see putting 10 other two guards on the floor in front of him...

But the money season? The 16 game season...nope...only guys getting major minutes at the two over him are Jordan and Kobe...everyone else is playing a MAX of 24 minutes cause Manu is playing the other 24

LOL at some of these list...AI spent 90% of his career playing point and now we putting him in front of Gigoatli at the 2

You do realize that Manu basically lost the finals to Miami right? Dude could not control the ball at all.

 

[malbaker86]

You do realize that Manu basically lost the finals to Miami right? Dude could not control the ball at all.

And he basically won the 05 finals as well so whats your point?

 

[duckbutta]

Parker was still the #2 option during the season when they won that 2003 Championship, and Manu was about the fourth/fifth option.

Parker's first three seasons playing with Manu (FG%) - 46%, 44%, 48%
Manu's first three seasons playing with Parker (FG%)- 43%, 41%, 47%

And this is with Parker taking 2-3 more shots per game as well. But I thought Parker couldn't shoot though?

Let's take it a step further -

Parker was hitting 37% on total jumpers and Ginoboli was hitting 32% on jumpers in 2002/2003
Parker was hitting 34% on total jumpers and Ginoboli was hitting 32% on jumpers in 2003/2004
Parker was hitting 36% on total jumpers and Ginobili was hitting 38% on jumpers in 2004/2005.

Parker was hitting 36% on midrange jumpers (308 attempts) and Ginobili was hitting 24% on jumpers (37 attempts) in 2002/2003
Parker was hitting 36% on midrange jumpers (302 attempts) and Ginobili was hitting 33% on jumpers (86 attempts) in 2003/2004
Parker was hitting 40% on midrange jumpers (345 attempts) and Ginobili was hitting 28% on jumpers (71 attempts) in 2004/2005

So basically you're talking shyt about Parker not being able to hit shots outside of 12 feet in the first half of his career and you're talking shyt about 'Prime Manu' having to play with a PG that couldn't shoot, when in fact he was the one that couldn't shoot.





Nah it really leaves Manu as being a third option for the majority of his career.



at these blatant selective collection of players across multiple seasons.



What you're failing to realize is that Manu was part of the help. And why are you still talking like Ginobili played more of a role than Parker did?








Parker was the guy right behind Duncan. Ginobili started off as a fourth/fifth option then upgraded to third option and that's where he's stayed, in fact you could argue he's been behind Kawhi for the last 18 months.

Ginobili has never been ahead of Parker



Ray Allen played 19 seasons, the all-time leader in 3-pt made FGs, averaged 18.9 ppg on 45% over his career and basically had a decade stretch putting up 21-26 ppg playing close to 40 mins.

Reggie Miller played 18 seasons, was the all-time leader in 3-pt made FGs (now second to Allen), averaged 18.2 ppg on 47% shooting over his career and had a 12-season stretch averaging 18-24 ppg playing 35 minutes plus.

They're both outright better than Ginobili, it's a non-argument. I highly doubt Ginobili would have lasted as the #1/#2 option playing 35-40 minutes for more than a decade, let alone putting up similar numbers on the similar efficiency.



So he basically spent six-seven seasons (the tail end of his career), playing in the exact same situation that Ginobili has been playing in for his entire career? Are you forgetting the bulk of his career where he played in Milwaukee and Seattle as the #1 option putting up 20+ ppg? Are you forgetting that he led the Sonics and Bucks deep into the playoffs on back-to-back seasons putting up 25/26 ppg on 47% shooting?

When has Ginobili done anything in his career that even comes close to resembling that?

Ginobili came into this league with a silver spoon in his mouth (winning a Championship in his debut season despite being a fourth/fifth option, averaging single-digit scoring on shytty shooting percentages).

If he had a similar career trajectory to the average SG since 2002, he wouldn't have achieved shyt in his career.



Meanwhile Ginobili is still the third/fourth option for the Spurs.



Manu got it easier than every single other SG since 2002. He never had to do any heavy lifting throughout the regular season, averaged less than 30 minutes for his entire career (career high 31.0 minutes), played on limited minutes over the past four seasons to save himself for the postseason (averaged 23.7 minutes a game over that span), all the while his team consistently had one of the best records, played alongside the greatest PF in history for his entire career, played with one of the greatest coaches for his entire career and played in the greatest system in the modern era.

Ole boy had it easy.

So much hilarious trash in this thread

You point at Manu and Parker shooting percentage but don't mention how Parker spent most of his time playing with Duncan since they both start so when he gets around the freethrow line no one would do much to challenge his shot for fear of Tim Duncan getting an easy putback...meanwhile manu is coming off the bench leading the second unit and he has to do everything...he had to create all the shots...he had to take all the tough shots...he had to guard at least the second best perimeter player...and he had to do all of this during stretched where Malik Rose and Samake Walker and Kevin Willis are his big men...

You point out the shooting percentages between the two but I see you conveniently left out free throws percentages where Tony had several seasons where he just barely shot 70%...shot 65% one season...where as Manu has shot below 80% for his rookie year and has been an 80 - 85% guy every since...maybe free throws are not important to you but at the guard position they are VERY important to me and since guards are the ones shooting free throws at the end of tight games shooting in the 70's and high 60's is a very dicey situation...

So if I take your numbers...my starting point guard is shooting in the mid to high 40's...but he is shooting in the 30's on what you call a "jumper"...meaning that his field goal percentage is being carried by the fact that he is getting to the rim at a borderline astonishing rate...but then when the game get's tight and he starts getting fouled and he has to go to the line in those first three years he is making on average 75%...70%...65% of his free throws...

In 2004 - 05...I'd do better letting my Mr Everything 7 footer shoot clutch free throws since he is making them at a higher clip than my starting point guard who you are telling me is my 2nd most important player? My second most important player is shooting in the 30's for jumpers and in the 60's at the line...and he is a point guard

Reggie and Ray should have put up those numbers...they were the focal points of their offense for damn near two decades...and I have seen enough of Manu to say that if you made him the focal point of an offense for 36 minutes a night he could average 21 - 26 points a season...would he get it by being a dead eye shooting specialist like Reggie and Ray...nope...but he would get it...your not going to post anything to change my mind here...I've watched the dude play ball to long...

And every since the year after he won in boston Ray hasn't done shyt but run around screens and shoot 3's...so if you are going to tell me Ray been in the league for 19 seasons I am going to tell you he spent the last 6 being a spot up shooter...

You going to tell me well Ray had to carry teams early in his career I am going to ask you..."So what was Manu doing from 1995 to 2002?".

You point to me being selective with names so I tell you what...for every 4 players I post that Manu played with that didn't make an all star team you post 1 player that did and we will see who runs out of names first...I will be generous and even let you have the obvious players that made all star games because if I don't do that we won't even get 3 rounds into this...after I post the 3rd set of 4 players you won't be able to post another all star player...

That list if random players I posted was the best of the best...I could easily pull out the Sean Marks and Mike Wilks of the world

 

[duckbutta]

You do realize that Manu basically lost the finals to Miami right? Dude could not control the ball at all.

He was outright atrocious in that finals...

But he had 3 rings by then so I give him a pass...

How did it work at for him in the Finals this year :spurstroll:

 

[Poitier]

Nope but that 2005 Finals destroyed my soul as a Pistons fan.

 

[Stack Money]

@ this bein a debate

Off top from 90s - present

- Jordan
- Kobe
- Wade
- AI (usually had the ball in his hands like all great Guards but played SG most of his career and when he ran the point nikkas often refused to call him a PG cause his style of play wasn't traditional so don't try to flip it now to fit your narrative)
- Hill (played both SG and SF nikkas forget he was the OG "next Jordan" before the injuries and dude wasn't even mentioned on none of the impromptu lists in this thread which further shows how silly this question is cause the position is deep as hell)
- Carter (played both SG and SF)
- McGrady (played both SG and SF)
- Richmond
- Drexler
- Miller

And thats not even includin pre 90s, Manu been comin off the bench for half his career like someone else said he might be a top 10 all time 6th man cause like Harden he better in that role than tryna build a team around him. And freeze all that 4 rings shyt as if he was the main reason they won ignorin the fact he never was finals MVP even Leonard got one of those so Manu was 3rd-4th most important player on that team durin their entire run.

Gotta love how nikkas wanna bring up international play as if playin in Argentina and occasionally goin up against the only 2 foreign teams that can even hang wit the US is comparable to playin in the NBA, by that logic lets throw in stats for all the muhfukkas that played in China cause some of the numbers they rack up over there would put them ahead of Ginobili on the all time SG list too and if you countin entire basketball careers then College and High School gotta be included makin the gap between all the players mentioned in this thread and Manu even wider.