Is there a scoring flu going round in the NBA?

[CHICAGO]

You fukking liar, I posted the entire clips and Terry (first clip) / Dirk (second clip) were waiting behind Bron guarding nobody the entire play.


In your gif MJ is one-on-one and the other defenders only collapse towards the lane in the last second. They all had to be attached to players which is why nobody is anywhere near either elbow, MJ had FAR more room to work with than LeBron did.

Are you really so ignorant that you can't tell the difference between Jazz players out of position collapsing last second and Warriors/Mavs defenders literally sitting there waiting in the lanes?

I bet you legit don't even know the difference between the clips you posted and the clips I posted. Were Bron's help defenders allowed to wait in space that MJ's help defenders weren't allowed to wait, or not?

LOOK AT THE MIGHTY ZONE YALL

​

 

[Professor Emeritus]

LOOK AT THE MIGHTY ZONE YALL

​

You did exactly what I said you would - ignored literally every clip and shot posted and just tried to move the goalposts with new clips. Bron scored 275 Finals buckets against the Warriors, of course when you're cherry-picking from 275 makes you can find gifs of momentary lapses where he beat his defender one-on-one and got to the basket before help did. He's literally GOAT at that. Shot 19-32 in that 2018 Game 1 alone, of course you can find shots of him beating the defense just like you can find 5-10 shots of MJ making easy buckets from any of his big games.

I can repeatedly show Finals clips of MJ getting to the basket untouched with shytty help or shooting wide-open jump shots with no one challenging the shot at all. What would that prove?


Once again, I'm not even sure you can tell the difference between a zone and a man defense. Are you ignorant that literally every one of the Bron buckets you just posted would have been scored the exact same way against a man defense?

On the other hand, the clips I showed of zone defense against LeBron would be IMPOSSIBLE in MJ's day. And the clips I showed of MJ clearing out and getting illegal defense called would be IMPOSSIBLE in Bron's day. Can you dispute that or you going to ignore the evidence for more irrelevant clips again?

 

[CHICAGO]

You did exactly what I said you would - ignored literally every clip and shot posted and just tried to move the goalposts with new clips. Bron scored 275 Finals buckets against the Warriors, of course when you're cherry-picking from 275 makes you can find gifs of momentary lapses where he beat his defender one-on-one and got to the basket before help did. He's literally GOAT at that. Shot 19-32 in that 2018 Game 1 alone, of course you can find shots of him beating the defense just like you can find 5-10 shots of MJ making easy buckets from any of his big games.

I can repeatedly show Finals clips of MJ getting to the basket untouched with shytty help or shooting wide-open jump shots with no one challenging the shot at all. What would that prove?


Once again, I'm not even sure you can tell the difference between a zone and a man defense. Are you ignorant that literally every one of the Bron buckets you just posted would have been scored the exact same way against a man defense?

On the other hand, the clips I showed of zone defense against LeBron would be IMPOSSIBLE in MJ's day. And the clips I showed of MJ clearing out and getting illegal defense called would be IMPOSSIBLE in Bron's day. Can you dispute that or you going to ignore the evidence for more irrelevant clips again?

THE DISGUSTING
CHERRY PICKER JUST CLAIMED
I CHERRY PICKED.

IVE POSTED EVERY SINGLE BUCKET
FROM HIS 51 PT FINALS GM
SANS THE TRANSITION THREES...

LOOK AT THE MIGHTY ZONE YALL.

NOW POST THAT STILL SHOT
YOU KEEP SPAMMING
OF THAT FINAL POSSESSION
YOU AUTISTIC CLOWN

​

 

[Professor Emeritus]

bu bu bu a zone would have broke MJ

Are you mocking MJ himself?

IF ZONE DEFENSES COME IN, STARS MAY GO OUT

Even Michael Jordan Thought Michael Jordan Would Struggle Against Modern Zone Defense

MJ on rule changes: "If teams were able to play zone defenses, I never would've had the career I had."



Let's see what happened when MJ transitioned from a zone defense to a man defense.


Playoff stats against zones in college

1983

11-21 for 28 points in win (ACC Round 1 Clemson)
4-12 for 13 points in loss (ACC Round 2 NC State)

6-8 for 16 points in win (NCAA Round 1 James Madison)
5-15 for 17 points in win (NCAA Round 2 Ohio State)
11-23 for 27 points in loss (NCAA Round 3 Georgia)


1984

7-12 for 17 points in win (ACC Round 1 Clemson)
11-23 for 22 points in loss (ACC Round 2 Duke)

11-15 for 27 points in win (NCAA Round 1 Temple)
6-14 for 13 points in loss (NCAA Round 2 Indiana)


20ppg on 49% shooting overall, 19ppg on 44% shooting in the 4 losses. All upsets against inferior teams while surrounded by a stacked roster.


How'd he score in the playoffs when he got to the pros? Considering that he was playing against far superior opponents and surrounded by far worse teammates, it should have been much easier to hem MJ up, right?


1985: MJ averages 29ppg on 44% shooting against the Bucks in his rookie NBA playoffs

1986: MJ averages 44ppg on 51% shooting against one of the GOAT Celtics teams


Someone needs to explain to me why it was easier for short white scrubs to contain MJ in college when he had elite teammates than it was for elite NBA defenders to contain him in the pros when he had mediocre teammates?

 

[Professor Emeritus]

This college scrub can hold MJ to 13 points on 6-14 shooting in a zone defense

But this elite 9x All-Defensive Team NBA defender gives up 44ppg on 51% shooting in a man defense?

Someone make it make sense!

Oh, someone already did.


MJ on rule changes: "If teams were able to play zone defenses, I never would've had the career I had."

 

[CHICAGO]

This college scrub can hold MJ to 13 points on 6-14 shooting in a zone defense

But this elite 9x All-Defensive Team NBA defender gives up 44ppg on 51% shooting in a man defense?

Someone make it make sense!

Oh, someone already did.


MJ on rule changes: "If teams were able to play zone defenses, I never would've had the career I had."

THERE WASNT EVEN A 3P LINE
IN COLLEGE WHEN MJ PLAYED
YOU AUTISTIC IDIOT.

THERE WAS LITERALLY
NO RISK TO LEAVING SOMEONE
OPEN FOR A LONG ASS 2 POINTER
OPPOSED TO LEAVING GUYS
OPEN FOR THREES ALL NIGHT.

THATS WHY THE ZONE
MEANS NOTHING IN
THIS 3 BALL ERA AND
TEAMS ONLY USE IT FOR VERY
SHORT PERIODS WHEN IN
DESPERATION MODE.

HOW ARE YOU AN OLD
ASS MAN AND KEEP IGNORING
THE FACT NCAA DIDNT HAVE A
3P UNTIL 1986?

​

 

[EBK String]

This college scrub can hold MJ to 13 points on 6-14 shooting in a zone defense

But this elite 9x All-Defensive Team NBA defender gives up 44ppg on 51% shooting in a man defense?

Someone make it make sense!

Oh, someone already did.


MJ on rule changes: "If teams were able to play zone defenses, I never would've had the career I had."

you do know NBA games are longer than college games and all stars stats go up in the pros right?

​

 

[Professor Emeritus]

THE DISGUSTING
CHERRY PICKER JUST CLAIMED
I CHERRY PICKED.

IVE POSTED EVERY SINGLE BUCKET
FROM HIS 51 PT FINALS GM
SANS THE TRANSITION THREES...​

When I said that you had posted 5 buckets out of a game where Bron went 19-32.


You ONLY posted the clips where LeBron successfully took advantage of a lapse and beat the defense. And some of them weren't even bad defense - you posted several clips where Bron beat the double-team or scored right in the face of the help defense.


But you ignored every play where Bron had to pass the ball off because the zone hedged all the lanes.

You ignored every play where Bron missed the shot because the zone successfully closed him off and met him in front of the basket.

You ignored every play where Bron scored on a jumper over the defense because he didn't have the lane.


Bron's actual shot chart from the game shows him going 8-17 from 10+ feet and 3-7 from 3-10 feet. Why did you ignore ALL of those 24 shots that weren't dunks/layins, both the 11 he made and the 13 he missed, as well as all the passes, turnovers, and other plays that he didn't score because of the defense?

Your clips don't show shyt like this. First quarter and Golden State already has Durant camping in the lane guarding NO ONE, his man isn't even on that side of the court. He's just waiting for Bron. Curry is 15 feet off his man and Draymond is in the key waiting for Bron too, not looking at his own man at all.

LeBron takes the screen and hits the 3pt over the defense because the lanes were completely closed off.





I can bring up plays like that over and over. Numerous plays throughout the game where the zone defense succeeds and forces Bron into a jump shot or a pass. You ignore ALL of that and only show the lapses, while ignoring that those are the exact same lapses that would occur in a man defense.

How many times you going to ignore reality?

 

[CHICAGO]

When I said that you had posted 5 buckets out of a game where Bron went 19-32.


You ONLY posted the clips where LeBron successfully took advantage of a lapse and beat the defense. And some of them weren't even bad defense - you posted several clips where Bron beat the double-team or scored right in the face of the help defense.


But you ignored every play where Bron had to pass the ball off because the zone hedged all the lanes.

You ignored every play where Bron missed the shot because the zone successfully closed him off and met him in front of the basket.

You ignored every play where Bron scored on a jumper over the defense because he didn't have the lane.


Bron's actual shot chart from the game shows him going 8-17 from 10+ feet and 3-7 from 3-10 feet. Why did you ignore ALL of those 24 shots that weren't dunks/layins, both the 11 he made and the 13 he missed, as well as all the passes, turnovers, and other plays that he didn't score because of the defense?

Your clips don't show shyt like this. First quarter and Golden State already has Durant camping in the lane guarding NO ONE, his man isn't even on that side of the court. He's just waiting for Bron. Curry is 15 feet off his man and Draymond is in the key waiting for Bron too, not looking at his own man at all.

LeBron takes the screen and hits the 3pt over the defense because the lanes were completely closed off.





I can bring up plays like that over and over. Numerous plays throughout the game where the zone defense succeeds and forces Bron into a jump shot or a pass. You ignore ALL of that and only show the lapses, while ignoring that those are the exact same lapses that would occur in a man defense.

How many times you going to ignore reality?

LEBRON HAS LOONEY ON HIM
AND YOU MAD KD CAMPED
IN THE LANE....

CONSIDERING HES GUARDING NOBODY
WOULDNT IT MAKE MORE SINCE
TO TRAP BRON WITH A HARD DBL?

THATS THE RUNNING THEME
IN MY 12 GIFS
AND THE 2 SCREEN SHOTS
YOU COULD FIND TO SUPPORT YOUR
FICTIONAL NARRATIVE...

BRON IS BEING GUARDED
BY A PG, A PF OR CENTER
IN ALL BUT ONE.

BRON WASNT BEATING DOUBLE TEAMS
HE WAS USING SCREENS
TO GET HIS INITIAL DEFENDER
OFF HIM THEN BLOWING BY
THE GUY WHO WAS LATE WITH
THE SWITCH/HEDGE.

WE SEE THIS shyt
EVERY NIGHT...

GET THE SWITCH
AND BEAT THE MISMATCH
OVER & OVER AGAIN.

JORDAN WOULD HAVE FEASTED.

​

 

[Professor Emeritus]

you do know NBA games are longer than college games

​

You can't be this dumb breh, are you saying that MJ was 6-14 for 13 points in the college elimination game but averaged 44ppg on 51% shooting in the pro series solely because "the games were longer"?

Why can Dan Dakich, a shytty undersized unathletic college defender, hem Jordan up so easily while Dennis Johnson, one of 3 greatest perimeter defenders of the 1980s, is made almost useless?

Do you really think it has nothing to do with the fact that Dakich had help from the zone?

and all stars stats go up in the pros right?

​

Yes, all stars stats go up in the pros, THAT'S THE WHOLE fukkING POINT.

Did you not see my Jeff Ruland quote?


"How did he explain the scouting reports, which said he was too slow and questioned his ability to play defense and whether he could make it in the pros?"

"''This is pro basketball,'' he replied, smiling. ''There are no zone defenses with four guys hanging all over me. I wonder if the pro scouts realized that in the N.B.A. they play man-to-man.''"

JEFF RULAND: SURPRISING ROOKIE


Zone defenses make it harder for stars to shine outside of lights-out shooters. Everyone else is going to get too much attention from the zone and thus has to spread the ball around. When you do have a dominant high-scoring player making a run in the NCAA tourney, the vast majority of it the time it's someone who is shooting the ball like crazy, its not someone feasting on drives or post plays or isos. The zone cuts all of those off too regularly and forces you to kick the ball to your other men.

 

[Professor Emeritus]

LEBRON HAS LOONEY ON HIM
AND YOU MAD KD CAMPED
IN THE LANE....

CONSIDERING HES GUARDING NOBODY
WOULDNT IT MAKE MORE SINCE
TO TRAP BRON WITH A HARD DBL?
​

No, because Bron can easily beat a hard double by passing to the wide-open guy, especially if that guy cuts to the hoop. Plus the hard double would require KD to run out to Bron and then rush to recover to his own man, which over the course of the game would sap his energy. The zone allows the defense to get the effectiveness of the double while only using part of the energy expenditure. In the old days they would have just iso'd and left the defenders waiting or collapsing last second more often than not rather than running around back and forth.

See, I was right when I said that you had no clue how a zone actually works.

THATS THE RUNNING THEME
IN MY 12 GIFS
AND THE 2 SCREEN SHOTS
YOU COULD FIND TO SUPPORT YOUR
FICTIONAL NARRATIVE...
​

I like that you lie and claim I only gave two screenshots when I gave 7 different screenshots and 3 videos from 3 different series. And could have kept going - I didn't even show a single Spurs zone in there. Teams have used the zone on LeBron over and over again.

And you didn't bring 12 gifs, you used several repeats.

BRON WASNT BEATING DOUBLE TEAMS
HE WAS USING SCREENS
TO GET HIS INITIAL DEFENDER
OFF HIM THEN BLOWING BY
THE GUY WHO WAS LATE WITH
THE SWITCH/HEDGE.
​

What point are you trying to make - why wouldn't LeBron take a screen? That happens whether you're playing zone or man - MJ scored off of screens all the time. It's just that rather than doing the hard show and switch that they use against Bron, against MJ they usually had the big go into drop coverage and offer MJ the open jumper, and if MJ didn't take it right away they would try to switch back ASAP.

But often MJ wouldn't utilize the screen at all because he preferred the spacing of the triangle offense and just beating his defender one-on-one because unlike Bron he could always get a spaced man opportunity without worrying about the zone hedging guys low.

JORDAN WOULD HAVE FEASTED.

​

You say he would have feasted off of simple screens that he could have taken whenever he wanted in his own era, while once against ignoring the zone completely?

Why didn't he feast in college, when he was upset in back-to-back ACC tourneys and back-to-back NCAA tourneys once he became "the man" on offense? Why were those teams able to contain him with a zone when the NBA could contain him with man coverage?

Why did he say that he never would have had the career he did with a zone?

If a man defense is better, then why don't teams use man defense to stop Bron? Why is it that your GIFs of Bron scoring look a lot closer to man defense than my shots of Bron being stopped? Could it be....Bron is far more likely to score when teams fail to set up the zone in time?

 

[CHICAGO]

OH MY BAD IT WAS
11 GIFS NOT 12...

LMAO AT SEVERAL REPEATS.

THEY JUST LOOK LIKE
REPEATS BECAUSE HE
WAS ALLOWED TO
DO THE SAME shyt OVER AND OVER.

​

 

[Professor Emeritus]

THERE WASNT EVEN A 3P LINE
IN COLLEGE WHEN MJ PLAYED
YOU AUTISTIC IDIOT.

THERE WAS LITERALLY
NO RISK TO LEAVING SOMEONE
OPEN FOR A LONG ASS 2 POINTER
OPPOSED TO LEAVING GUYS
OPEN FOR THREES ALL NIGHT.

THATS WHY THE ZONE
MEANS NOTHING IN
THIS 3 BALL ERA AND
TEAMS ONLY USE IT FOR VERY
SHORT PERIODS WHEN IN
DESPERATION MODE.

HOW ARE YOU AN OLD
ASS MAN AND KEEP IGNORING
THE FACT NCAA DIDNT HAVE A
3P UNTIL 1986?

​

I was comparing MJ's 1983 and 1984 college numbers to his 1985 and 1986 pro numbers, dumbass.

In 1985, the Bulls made TWO 3pt shots the entire series. In 1986, the Bulls made TWO 3pt shots the entire series.

So the reason that MJ was able to be hemmed up by zones and yet scored like crazy against man defense doesn't have jack shyt to do with the 3pt shot. The 3pt shot was irrelevant in both contexts.


Introducing the 3pt shot makes the zone even more important, because the spacing gets bigger so you need the extra recovery even more. Try to run to give a hard double and then recover all the way back to your now-open 3pt shooter would make the defender completely fukked. If that wasn't true then teams would have simply stopped running zones long ago and their existence would be considered irrelevant.

This is the 6th or 7th time in this thread that you've proven you don't even know how a zone works. What's the highest level of basketball that you're ever run a zone defense in your life, playing or coaching?

 

[Professor Emeritus]

OH MY BAD IT WAS
11 GIFS NOT 12...

LMAO AT SEVERAL REPEATS.

THEY JUST LOOK LIKE
REPEATS BECAUSE HE
WAS ALLOWED TO
DO THE SAME shyt OVER AND OVER.

​

Why do you think gifs of Bron scoring against the closest thing he saw to man defense helps prove your point that man is superior to zone?




2 plays are just Bron shooting a jump shot over the zone, in one case after a screen when the help was out of position due to having to hedge on off-ball screen action. That's irrelevant because MJ was FAR more open on jump shots after screens or when his man defender sat back on him.

3 plays are Bron beating the zone because the help defender in the lane was out of position (or in the case of Looney him just straight beating him at the rim). Again against man defense that help would have been even worse out of position.

The other 6 plays are basically man defense where the Warriors didn't have time to set the zone correctly or lost the zone due to other actions and Bron exploited that, just like MJ exploited his man defense all the time.

I'm still trying to figure out what you thought you were proving about defense with those clips. That Bron scored on other players besides SFs? MJ did that all the time too. MJ beat point guards and shot over big men laying off all the time. So?




MJ's famous 6-three half, look at that stellar defense.


Who is defending him?

1st: G Drexler, laying off 8 feet and doesn't challenge shot
2nd: Wide open, Jordan was completely unguarded after Drexler collapsed on a Pippen drive
3rd: Wide open, C Duckworth was initially closest on fast break but sagged back and didn't try to defend
4th: G Ainge is sort of in area but Jordan is open again and no one challenges the shot
5th: F Kersey guarding MJ loosely, reacts too late to challenge shot
6th: F/C Cliff Robinson only one to challenge the shot, but comes too late to have an effect


So Drexler was only guarding MJ on 1 out of his 6 threes in that half. Otherwise he was guarded by a center, forward, or scrappy combo guard if he was guarded at all (and there are numerous possessions where PGs end up guarding MJ too). Why do you pretend that's something unique to this era?



And I can show numerous layups and dunks from that same series where MJ gets to the basket more untouched than he did in the Warriors game.

 

[ISO]

Y’all love having repetitive convos

In the context of LeBron it’s irrelevant his career stretches 20 years he’s played in the worst offensive era in NBA history and the best offensive era in NBA history and was an elite scorer in both.