Jalen Rose- Harden is playing like Westbrook isn't there

[LeftCoast]

harden shouldn’t change his game for dum ass westbrook, that nikka a role player now.

 

[Professor Emeritus]

Harden still got stans in 2019 ? Show me an athlete regardless of the skillset that get a bigger pass for losing than this Jabroni ..nikka been out here creeping with a Kardashian with a beer belly dropping 40 on 20 free throws but he better than Pierce ? Knowing damn well the only reason the CaC media aint turn on him is D'antoni.......They staying on code for a CaC Coach...So they been soft shoeing round the Harden issue.....till Harden ask for a new coach...watch how fast the heel turn come ..

Harden gotta be the most disrespected MVP-level player ever. People hated post-trial/Shaq Kobe and pre-ring Bron but they at least had respect on court and a rabid stanbase.

Harden scoring 36ppg, does nothing but get buckets, and people telling him to fukk all the way off.

People really hate gimmicks. Its genius though.

It ain't just the gimmicks, it's that so much of his game is based on blatant flopping (cheating) and the way he ALWAYS fails in the playoffs.

Harden has two of the most embarrassing individual playoff collapses in NBA history and has had some version of those fails at every postseason moment of his career.


2012: Collapses in Finals (12ppg on 37/31 shooting and more turnovers than Russ) and helps cost his team a ring when he goes 2-10 with 4 turnovers in the must-win Game 4

2013: First round exit

2014: First round exit

2015: Worst elimination game in NBA history (2-11 shooting, 13 turnovers, 5 fouls)

2016: First round exit

2017: Repeats worst elimination game collapse (Kawhi out and still goes 2-11 shooting, 6 turnovers, fouls out)

2018: Goes 5-21 with 6 turnovers, 12-29 with 6 turnovers, and 10-24 with 9 turnovers in the final three games of the WCF, helping his team blow a 3-2 lead even with Iggy out.

2019: Warriors drop Cousins and Durant and yet he STILL loses to a team starting Bogut and Iggy with zero bench. Goes 11-25 with just 5 assists and 6 turnovers. Rockets were actually -10 with Harden on the court that game and +5 with him off.


It's as if Kobe had his 2004 Finals or LeBron his 2011 Finals....and then repeated that failure every. single. year.

 

[Piff Perkins]

HOW can anyone stan Harden after multiple playoff failures? Bragging about scoring averages and regular season win totals lmao. Hasn't won a thing, doesn't show up in big playoff games.

Only reason Morey won't get fired for the dumpster fire the Rockets will be this year is because Silver doesn't want to make it seem like China got their wish.

 

[Mantis Toboggan M.D.]

It ain't just the gimmicks, it's that so much of his game is based on blatant flopping (cheating) and the way he ALWAYS fails in the playoffs.

Harden has two of the most embarrassing individual playoff collapses in NBA history and has had some version of those fails at every postseason moment of his career.


2012: Collapses in Finals (12ppg on 37/31 shooting and more turnovers than Russ) and helps cost his team a ring when he goes 2-10 with 4 turnovers in the must-win Game 4

2013: First round exit

2014: First round exit

2015: Worst elimination game in NBA history (2-11 shooting, 13 turnovers, 5 fouls)

2016: First round exit

2017: Repeats worst elimination game collapse (Kawhi out and still goes 2-11 shooting, 6 turnovers, fouls out)

2018: Goes 5-21 with 6 turnovers, 12-29 with 6 turnovers, and 10-24 with 9 turnovers in the final three games of the WCF, helping his team blow a 3-2 lead even with Iggy out.

2019: Warriors drop Cousins and Durant and yet he STILL loses to a team starting Bogut and Iggy with zero bench. Goes 11-25 with just 5 assists and 6 turnovers. Rockets were actually -10 with Harden on the court that game and +5 with him off.


It's as if Kobe had his 2004 Finals or LeBron his 2011 Finals....and then repeated that failure every. single. year.

Nice on expanding on what I referenced earlier, but you even missed a few. Game 3 of the finals against the heat he went 2-10 as well, even getting outscored by Derek Fisher in a game that saw Russell Westbrook shooting to tie the game in the final seconds. His awful game 6 against the thunder in 2013 came with Westbrook out hurt. He got a buzzer beater dropped on his head in 2014. His game 6 against the clippers in 2015 was atrocious, and he wasn’t particularly good in game 7 either. In game 3 of the western finals down 0-2 and at home in 2015, he goes 3 for 16 while the rockets lose 115-80. The only pro athlete I’ve seen who’s considered a star or an all star who consistently is that bad in big games or in the playoffs overall is Gary Sanchez

 

[Professor Emeritus]

Nice on expanding on what I referenced earlier, but you even missed a few. Game 3 of the finals against the heat he went 2-10 as well, even getting outscored by Derek Fisher in a game that saw Russell Westbrook shooting to tie the game in the final seconds. His awful game 6 against the thunder in 2013 came with Westbrook out hurt. He got a buzzer beater dropped on his head in 2014. His game 6 against the clippers in 2015 was atrocious, and he wasn’t particularly good in game 7 either. In game 3 of the western finals down 0-2 and at home in 2015, he goes 3 for 16 while the rockets lose 115-80. The only pro athlete I’ve seen who’s considered a star or an all star who consistently is that bad in big games or in the playoffs overall is Gary Sanchez

I knew some of those but was conserving for readability. The best was that Game 6 against the Clippers which was an elimination game for him down 3-2, he went 5-20 and they got DESTROYED by CP3 all game long, but the Rockets still carved out the win on the strength of that crazy 40-15 fourth quarter with career games by Josh Smith and Corey Brewer. Harden was benched or quiet as a mouse the entire run.

He has like three other 3-16 or 3-17 games that I didn't mention too. And they all come in key points in the series, in games 4 or 5 or 6 in close series. While his best games usually come in Game 1 or at the end of already-decided series. The more the pressure ramps up, the worse he performs.

I would bet anything that Harden has more missed shots and turnovers in games 5/6 of 2-2 and 3-2 series than any other player in NBA history.

 

[Mantis Toboggan M.D.]

I knew some of those but was conserving for readability. The best was that Game 6 against the Clippers which was an elimination game for him down 3-2, he went 5-20 and they got DESTROYED by CP3 all game long, but the Rockets still carved out the win on the strength of that crazy 40-15 fourth quarter with career games by Josh Smith and Corey Brewer. Harden was benched or quiet as a mouse the entire run.

He has like three other 3-16 or 3-17 games that I didn't mention too. And they all come in key points in the series, in games 4 or 5 or 6 in close series. While his best games usually come in Game 1 or at the end of already-decided series. The more the pressure ramps up, the worse he performs.

I would bet anything that Harden has more missed shots and turnovers in games 5/6 of 2-2 and 3-2 series than any other player in NBA history.

He was on the bench the entire quarter. He was a -21 that night. Every other starter was at least +10 and Corey Brewer was +32. Clint Capela was the only other player in the negative and he only played about 5 minutes that night.

 

[MostReal]

Ultimate gimmick offense player. Dude could have Jordan, Lebron and Kobe in his team. He would still bring the ball up the court, take the most shots and have the most assists. Trash ass player.

Facts

 

[GPBear]

It ain't just the gimmicks, it's that so much of his game is based on blatant flopping (cheating) and the way he ALWAYS fails in the playoffs.

Harden has two of the most embarrassing individual playoff collapses in NBA history and has had some version of those fails at every postseason moment of his career.


2012: Collapses in Finals (12ppg on 37/31 shooting and more turnovers than Russ) and helps cost his team a ring when he goes 2-10 with 4 turnovers in the must-win Game 4

2013: First round exit

2014: First round exit

2015: Worst elimination game in NBA history (2-11 shooting, 13 turnovers, 5 fouls)

2016: First round exit

2017: Repeats worst elimination game collapse (Kawhi out and still goes 2-11 shooting, 6 turnovers, fouls out)

2018: Goes 5-21 with 6 turnovers, 12-29 with 6 turnovers, and 10-24 with 9 turnovers in the final three games of the WCF, helping his team blow a 3-2 lead even with Iggy out.

2019: Warriors drop Cousins and Durant and yet he STILL loses to a team starting Bogut and Iggy with zero bench. Goes 11-25 with just 5 assists and 6 turnovers. Rockets were actually -10 with Harden on the court that game and +5 with him off.


It's as if Kobe had his 2004 Finals or LeBron his 2011 Finals....and then repeated that failure every. single. year.

What’s crazy is how everyone clowns Clayton Kerflawed for the same reason, yet James Soften gets a pass. Fuq em both

 

[DragonKnight]

1st round exit inbound

 

[murksiderock]

Harden is a perennial choker, but he's better than Pierce was...

Pierce was an All-Star level player for a long time, but what was he doing that Harden wasn't? We know his defense was was a little better but Pierce wasn't some elite defender at any point. He isn't as unique a scorer as Harden, though I'd say Pierce had the more pure shot...

And Pierce also wasn't winning shyt, the same way Harden hasn't won shyt...

Harden just finished Year 10. Pierce won his title in Year 10, the year he got blessed with KG and Ray and didn't have to be the #1 anymore...

Pierce was never a true #1 and always better suited to be the second option, but in the seven years he was Boston's #1 (2000-2007/Year 3 thru Year 9), he never led his team to a 50-win season, missed the playoffs three times, only made the playoffs four times, was eliminated in the First Round two of those four playoff appearances, and only got to the East Finals once...

Harden became a #1 in Year 4 when he went to Houston and has been one since. Comparatively, in seven years as a #1 (2012-present/Year 4 thru Year 10), he's led his team to four 50-win and one 60-win seasons; has never missed the playoffs in the same equivalent time as a #1 as Pierce, which is more impressive given Harden has never missed the playoffs in the tougher conference while Pierce missed the playoffs three times in the '00s Eastern Conference...

Three of those playoffs Harden got eliminated in Round 1, but he also got to the West Finals twice...

At the same point in their career Pierce was a 5x All-Star and 2x All-NBA 3rd Team. Harden is a 7x All-Star, 6x All-NBA (5x 1st Team), 2x scoring champ, assists leader, and MVP...

Comparatively, both in the middle of their primes, as #1's, here's Paul Pierce (2000-2007):

(Reg season)
38.4 minutes per game
24.8/6.7/4.1 on 18.3 shots per game
.439/.358/.793 (8.8 FTA per game)
22 PER/.558 TS%
30.3 USG/29.9 VORP
42.9 OWS/25.5 DWS/68.5 WS
.161 WS/48

(Playoffs)
42.1 mpg
24.5/8.5/4.7 on 18 shots per game
.409/.301/.820 (10.1 FTA per game)
21.8 PER/.548 TS%
29.7 USG/2.8 VORP
2.6 OWS/2.7 DWS/5.3 WS
.162 WS/48

James Harden (2012-2019)

(Reg Season)
37.1 mpg
29/6/7.7 on 19.3 shots per game
.443/.364/.861 (10.2 FTA per game)
26.5 PER/.610 TS%
33 USG/53 VORP
77.4 OWS/23.6 DWS/100.9 WS
.239 WS/48

(Playoffs)
38.2 mpg
28.2/5.7/7 on 20.7 shots per game
.412/.322/.876 (9.4 FTA per game)
23.5 PER/.569 TS%
33.3 USG/6.3 VORP
6.5 OWS/2.8 DWS/9.3 WS
.161 WS/48

 

[The_Sheff]

You can't have it both ways here. The Warriors couldn't have been an unstoppable, unfair, super team, and then you shyt on Harden and the Rockets for being unable to beat them.

Yall do the same thing with Jordan. He can't be the best player off all time with that Bulls team being the best ever if all you do is talk about how bad all the teams were in that Era.

 

[murksiderock]

So what was Pierce exactly better at?

I'll repeat I think he had a wetter j from a pure shooter standpoint, but you'll also note their shooting percentages are eerily similar, with Harden having the slightly better percentages. Harden takes 1 more shot per game than Pierce did---->I think the only reason we don't think of Pierce as a volume shooter is because he didn't have the ball in his hands as much as Harden and other volume guys of Pierce's era like AI or McGrady...

Playoff numbers eerily similar as well...

But fukk all the numbers, which don't favor Pierce. I use numbers as a last resort, the starting point for me is how did you win at your best. Paul Pierce struggled to make the playoffs in the 2000s East. Never took his team to higher than a 3 seed, only got a Top 3 seed twice, and was a first round exit half the times he went to the playoffs...

James Harden has dominated regular seasons in the tougher conference, gotten three Top 3 seeds (including a 1 and 2) in a tougher conference, been to the conference finals more in the tougher conference, and never missed the playoffs in the tougher conference...

Pierce is a better version of Vince Carter. He wasn't a slouch by any stretch but comparing him, at the same point in his career, the only victory over Harden is Pierce won a chip, but he won it as a #2...

In the seven years both were/have been #1's, Harden is clearly better. Harden at his best has hit a peak that the best version of Paul Pierce never hit...

 

[MoneyTron]

This thread wasn’t necessarily about Pierce though.

I also have Harden over him, pretty easily in fact.

Harden more runs into trouble when comparing him to the other dominant SGs of previous eras ie Jordan and Kobe. That’s his peer set and where people expect him to make similar impact given his regular season dominance.

 

[murksiderock]

This thread wasn’t necessarily about Pierce though.

I also have Harden over him, pretty easily in fact.

Harden more runs into trouble when comparing him to the other dominant SGs of previous eras ie Jordan and Kobe. That’s his peer set and where people expect him to make similar impact given his regular season dominance.

Oh for sure I agree with this. But this thread turned into a sub topic comparing Pierce and Harden, with a few guys saying Pierce was a better player...

Recalling Pierce's career, I don't ever remember him being quite as good as The Beard, so it's an easy call for me too and I'm surprised anybody would argue otherwise. Pierce was underrated for a stretch of his career but has been overrated in his retirement...

But definitely Harden's annual playoff meltdowns are keeping him behind Kobe and Mike (and probably Wade too, although I think it's highly debatable and a toss up, as to whether Harden or Wade were the better player at their peak)...

But Wade didn't have nearly the playoff faceplants and has a signature run Harden has yet to achieve...

 

[Dwight Howard]

You can't have it both ways here. The Warriors couldn't have been an unstoppable, unfair, super team, and then you shyt on Harden and the Rockets for being unable to beat them.

Yall do the same thing with Jordan. He can't be the best player off all time with that Bulls team being the best ever if all you do is talk about how bad all the teams were in that Era.

Exactly. Those rocket competed with the KD warriors at a higher level than ANY team they ever faced. Couldve easily one if CP doesnt get hurt. Took them to 7, meanwhile them bron Cavs looked completely unmatched and made the finals unwatchable, yet people try to excuse those series.