Jalen Rose- Harden is playing like Westbrook isn't there

Professor Emeritus

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they pay coaches & personnel millions upon millions to build winning teams then develop winning strategies

if they have seen that it's not working harden trying to do it all you would think they'd adjust right¿

how many players have played that 1v5 style & won¿

why do the rockets keep putting harden in that position¿

hmmmmmmmmm¿

*
What do you think they're doing when they acquire CP3 and then Westbrook? If Harden was really the elite ballhandler/scorer y'all think he is then why do they keep spending half their cap on other elite ballhandlers who create their own shot?

The claim that the Rockets only play with Harden 1 on 5 is a lie. Harden ain't put in that position in the playoffs, he just goes there when he's stat padding. Gotta break your shyt again:


2018: Houston's most loaded squad, with CP3, Harden, and Eric Gordon giving them three elite shot creators plus Ariza/Green/Tucker all hitting tons of threes and Capela scoring inside.

Up 2-1 in the WCSF, Harden tries to pull his annual choke job and goes 8-22 with 3 assists and 8 turnovers, but CP3 still pulls the team to victory with 27-12-6 and just 1 turnover on 12-23 shooting.
Now up 3-1, Harden still shook and goes 7-22 with just 4 assists and 3 turnovers, but CP3 to the rescue again with 41 points on 13-22 shooting (8-10 from three) and 10 assists to 0 turnovers.

If "better teams" are the problem, then why does Harden still look shook against Utah? If "1 on 5" is the problem, then why does Harden still suck when CP3 is pulling all the weight?


Then came Golden State. They were a great team, but was it Harden who kept the Rockets in it or was it his teammates?

Game 2: Harden was just 9-24 and the Rockets still won behind crazy 29-47 shooting (13-23 from three) from Tucker, Ariza, CP3, and Gordon.
Game 4: Harden was just 11-26 and 3-12 from three but the Rockets still won behind CP3's 27 points (10-20 and 5-9) and fantastic defense from everyone not named Harden.
Game 5: 2-2 series, pressure sets in, Harden puts up a disgusting 5-21 shooting (0-11 from three) with just 4 assists and 6 turnovers...and the Rockets STILL win behind 44 points from Gordon and CP3 and the second straight dominant team defense.

Y'all try to give Harden credit for the Rockets hanging with the Warriors....that's some bullshyt. Harden tried to give that series away. That was a great, balanced team who hit their threes and played sick defense. Then CP3 went out and they had to rely on Harden to be the leader again, and we all know how that goes.



2017: Besides Harden you had Eric Gordon and Lou Williams who are both elite at creating their own shot, Ariza, Ryan Anderson, and Pat Beverley who can all hit threes, and Capela and Nene who can both score inside. That was NOT a 1 on 5 situation. In the Game 1 win Ariza led six players in double figures with 23 and Harden and Capela had 20, in the Game 4 win Harden led with 28 but Gordon was another of 7 players in double figures with 22.

So with all that firepower on the court, how does Harden go just 3-17 with 4 turnovers in his Game 2 stinker? Rest of the team shot 52% from the field and 36% from three, you can't blame them, it was Harden who looked like shyt. And the Rockets guarded the Spurs bigs great that game but EVERY perimeter player lit them up, in part because whoever Harden was put on would kill him.

And then after Kawhi went out for Game 6, how does Harden go 2-11 with 6 turnovers and foul out of the game? Who did Spurs have with Kawhi gone, Patty Mills and an old TP? They KILLED him and he had the better team.



2015: Houston wasn't loaded but they had some ballers, Jason Terry could still create his own shot and Dwight was playing All-NBA basketball inside while Ariza, Josh Smith, and Corey Brewer could all hit jumpers.

That was the team that was getting KILLED and was about to lose the series against the Clippers (even though CP3 had an injured hamstring) with Harden going 5-20 in Game 5....until they benched him and the Rockets went on the biggest comeback in NBA playoff history without Harden on the court. Harden was -21 +/- in a WIN.
Then in Game 7 he followed up going 7-20 with 7 turnovers, but the rest of the team shot 48% from the field and 44% from three to pull them to victory anyway.

And in the next series when the Rockets had a chance to close to 3-2 against the Warriors and going home for Game 6, Harden had the worst elimination game in league history (2-11 with a record-breaking 12 turnovers to go along with 5 fouls). Ariza (16 on 5-9), Dwight (18-16 with 4 blocks), Terry (16 on 6-13), Brewer (16 on 5-10) all had good games and they only lost by 14, it was Harden's stinker and the fact that he couldn't guard ANYONE that cost them that game.



2012: Loaded team with Durant, Westbrook, and Ibaka. Yet with no pressure at all, Harden still goes 2-10 with 3/4 turnovers in each of the two pivotal games of the series. Even back when he was only the 4th most important player on the court, he still played like shyt when the pressure in the series got too hot.



Y'all got one excuse for another for him, but none of them fly. Hope y'all enjoy those regular-season stat lines.
 

stepbackj34spud

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Well, the fact that Harden routinely disappears in big moments is a Harden issue. At this juncture he can never be described as "clutch", he's got more than a few meltdowns in the playoffs...

So that's a Harden issue------>but I do agree on the point that its inconsistent to talk about him losing to the Warriors when other guys in the same position haven't led a team as far...

Paul Pierce never won 50 games or a Top 2 seed as his team's #1. Was damn near a 50/50 shot to even make the playoffs, but there's alot of juelzing for him going on in this thread. Since he became a talking point in this thread I'm sticking with him, but no doubt about it, he ain't the only one...

James Harden played with better teammates, period. Harden has had the benefit of playing with better teammates and playing in a gimmick system. Why don’t you understand that.? This isn’t the first you have come at Paul Pierce. You’re a clown.

James Harden has had a long list of great teammates.

Just off the top off my head Harden has played with:
CP3(future hof)
Dwight Howard
Eric Gordon(6th man of the year)
Clint Capella(Excellent rebounder and double double guy)
Russell Westbrook(former mvp and future hofer
Lou Williams
Trevor Ariza

All notable names. Before Kg and Ray the best players Pierce played with were: Antoine Walker, Wally Sczerbiak and Ricky Davis. And nikkas talking about 50 win seasons? Hahahah :skip:

Pierce got hurt in 06-07 and that team lost 18 straight games without him in the lineup. That’s how terrible those early to mid 2000 Celtics team were constructed. That’s not on Pierce, it’s on that fraud of a GM called Ainge.
 
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murksiderock

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James Harden played with better teammates, period. Harden has had the benefit of playing with better teammates and playing in a gimmick system. Why don’t you understand that.? This isn’t the first you have come at Paul Pierce. You’re a clown.

James Harden has had a long list of great teammates.

Just off the top off my head Harden has played with:
CP3(future hof)
Dwight Howard
Eric Gordon(6th man of the year)
Clint Capella(Excellent rebounder and double double guy)
Russell Westbrook(former mvp and future hofer
Lou Williams
Trevor Ariza

All notable names. Before Kg and Ray the best players Pierce played with were: Antoine Walker, Wally Sczerbiak and Ricky Davis. And nikkas talking about 50 win seasons? Hahahah :skip:

Pierce got hurt in 06-07 and that team lost 18 straight games without him in the lineup. That’s how terrible those early to mid 2000 Celtics team were constructed. That’s not on Pierce, it’s on that fraud of a GM called Ainge.

So then who were these great teammates that Allen Iverson had, and why he was able to miss the playoffs fewer times? How was Iverson able to get the 1-seed and take the '01 Sixers to The Finals?

Allen Iverson played in the same era as Pierce, in the same conference, arguably with no one as good as Antoine Walker as a teammate...

Stop pretending Pierce is the only guy who has ever had a poor roster around him. If he was as good as you say he is, he isn't struggling to make the playoffs in the East...

He couldn't even beat the Spurs with no Kawhi.

Aldridge did play great that series and that was at the time he was still considered borderline elite if he played the way he played in Portland...

But I don't disagree with anything else you've said, you coming with some ether for Harden lmao. I'm not some Harden Stan or even a big defender really, but i do disagree with the multiple assertions up thread that Paul fukking Pierce was ever a better player. That's all lol...
 

stepbackj34spud

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So then who were these great teammates that Allen Iverson had, and why he was able to miss the playoffs fewer times? How was Iverson able to get the 1-seed and take the '01 Sixers to The Finals?

Allen Iverson played in the same era as Pierce, in the same conference, arguably with no one as good as Antoine Walker as a teammate...

Stop pretending Pierce is the only guy who has ever had a poor roster around him. If he was as good as you say he is, he isn't struggling to make the playoffs in the East...



Aldridge did play great that series and that was at the time he was still considered borderline elite if he played the way he played in Portland...

But I don't disagree with anything else you've said, you coming with some ether for Harden lmao. I'm not some Harden Stan or even a big defender really, but i do disagree with the multiple assertions up thread that Paul fukking Pierce was ever a better player. That's all lol...

You’re being ridiculous. Iverson made the playoffs 2 more times than Pierce from 98-05. Top to bottom Iverson had better teammates than Pierce too, with the exception of Antoine Walker.

We’re not talking about Pierce vs Iverson though. My point is, from my very first post I’m this thread. Is that Harden is a gimmick player. He can have a team full of the greatest offensive threats in nba history. And he would still put up the best stats because how gimmicky his game is. People read too much into stats without actually watching the game.

Harden puts up better numbers than Jordan and Kobe, is he better? Smh
 

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What do you think they're doing when they acquire CP3 and then Westbrook? If Harden was really the elite ballhandler/scorer y'all think he is then why do they keep spending half their cap on other elite ballhandlers who create their own shot?

The claim that the Rockets only play with Harden 1 on 5 is a lie. Harden ain't put in that position in the playoffs, he just goes there when he's stat padding. Gotta break your shyt again:


2018: Houston's most loaded squad, with CP3, Harden, and Eric Gordon giving them three elite shot creators plus Ariza/Green/Tucker all hitting tons of threes and Capela scoring inside.

Up 2-1 in the WCSF, Harden tries to pull his annual choke job and goes 8-22 with 3 assists and 8 turnovers, but CP3 still pulls the team to victory with 27-12-6 and just 1 turnover on 12-23 shooting.
Now up 3-1, Harden still shook and goes 7-22 with just 4 assists and 3 turnovers, but CP3 to the rescue again with 41 points on 13-22 shooting (8-10 from three) and 10 assists to 0 turnovers.

If "better teams" are the problem, then why does Harden still look shook against Utah? If "1 on 5" is the problem, then why does Harden still suck when CP3 is pulling all the weight?


Then came Golden State. They were a great team, but was it Harden who kept the Rockets in it or was it his teammates?

Game 2: Harden was just 9-24 and the Rockets still won behind crazy 29-47 shooting (13-23 from three) from Tucker, Ariza, CP3, and Gordon.
Game 4: Harden was just 11-26 and 3-12 from three but the Rockets still won behind CP3's 27 points (10-20 and 5-9) and fantastic defense from everyone not named Harden.
Game 5: 2-2 series, pressure sets in, Harden puts up a disgusting 5-21 shooting (0-11 from three) with just 4 assists and 6 turnovers...and the Rockets STILL win behind 44 points from Gordon and CP3 and the second straight dominant team defense.

Y'all try to give Harden credit for the Rockets hanging with the Warriors....that's some bullshyt. Harden tried to give that series away. That was a great, balanced team who hit their threes and played sick defense. Then CP3 went out and they had to rely on Harden to be the leader again, and we all know how that goes.



2017: Besides Harden you had Eric Gordon and Lou Williams who are both elite at creating their own shot, Ariza, Ryan Anderson, and Pat Beverley who can all hit threes, and Capela and Nene who can both score inside. That was NOT a 1 on 5 situation. In the Game 1 win Ariza led six players in double figures with 23 and Harden and Capela had 20, in the Game 4 win Harden led with 28 but Gordon was another of 7 players in double figures with 22.

So with all that firepower on the court, how does Harden go just 3-17 with 4 turnovers in his Game 2 stinker? Rest of the team shot 52% from the field and 36% from three, you can't blame them, it was Harden who looked like shyt. And the Rockets guarded the Spurs bigs great that game but EVERY perimeter player lit them up, in part because whoever Harden was put on would kill him.

And then after Kawhi went out for Game 6, how does Harden go 2-11 with 6 turnovers and foul out of the game? Who did Spurs have with Kawhi gone, Patty Mills and an old TP? They KILLED him and he had the better team.



2015: Houston wasn't loaded but they had some ballers, Jason Terry could still create his own shot and Dwight was playing All-NBA basketball inside while Ariza, Josh Smith, and Corey Brewer could all hit jumpers.

That was the team that was getting KILLED and was about to lose the series against the Clippers (even though CP3 had an injured hamstring) with Harden going 5-20 in Game 5....until they benched him and the Rockets went on the biggest comeback in NBA playoff history without Harden on the court. Harden was -21 +/- in a WIN.
Then in Game 7 he followed up going 7-20 with 7 turnovers, but the rest of the team shot 48% from the field and 44% from three to pull them to victory anyway.

And in the next series when the Rockets had a chance to close to 3-2 against the Warriors and going home for Game 6, Harden had the worst elimination game in league history (2-11 with a record-breaking 12 turnovers to go along with 5 fouls). Ariza (16 on 5-9), Dwight (18-16 with 4 blocks), Terry (16 on 6-13), Brewer (16 on 5-10) all had good games and they only lost by 14, it was Harden's stinker and the fact that he couldn't guard ANYONE that cost them that game.



2012: Loaded team with Durant, Westbrook, and Ibaka. Yet with no pressure at all, Harden still goes 2-10 with 3/4 turnovers in each of the two pivotal games of the series. Even back when he was only the 4th most important player on the court, he still played like shyt when the pressure in the series got too hot.



Y'all got one excuse for another for him, but none of them fly. Hope y'all enjoy those regular-season stat lines.
the cp3 pairing almost worked but cp was unfortunately on the brink of being washed & couldn't make it through the series

supporting cast members like eg lou.will ariza are good but do you trust them to take over consistently in a series¿

knowing that he tends to force shyte at times they been needed other true #1 options for when harden starts tweaking

we will see how the harden westbrook pairing works this time around

he needs that chef option where his team can absorb him being off in series

they also shouldn't be losing series where he leads all players in basically all offensive categories

of course some of the responsibility will fall on the #1 option but it's flaws in the organization deeper than one player


is that team even a playoff squad without harden let alone a championship caliber one¿

balance the distribution of criticism out ha

*

 

Professor Emeritus

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they also shouldn't be losing series where he leads all players in basically all offensive categories

of course some of the responsibility will fall on the #1 option but it's flaws in the organization deeper than one player


is that team even a playoff squad without harden let alone a championship caliber one¿

Sorry, there ain't no rule, "the team with the guy holding the ball the most should win." Harden's style of play is his style of play, it fills up the stat sheet but when he's inefficient or chokes in big games it isn't going to lead to meaningful wins.

And they were a great squad outside of Harden, what are you talking about?

Chris Paul
Eric Gordon
Trevor Ariza
P.J. Tucker
Clint Capela

How many teams in the NBA could you take away an MVP candidate and still have a starting five that solid left over? Of course they ain't a championship squad without him but they ain't a championship squad WITH him either.

Like I pointed out before, the squad he had in OKC was great and he still played like shyt when it mattered. In 2015 his squad beat the Clippers with him on the bench. In Game 5 against the Warriors everyone else played well (while Curry and Draymond couldn't hit anything) and Rockets still lost solely because Harden played like shyt. In 2017 he was THE reason they lost to a mediocre Spurs team with no Kawhi. In 2018 they beat the Jazz with him playing like shyt. They won games off the Warriors with him playing like shyt. It's bullshyt to say that he didn't have good squads.
 

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Sorry, there ain't no rule, "the team with the guy holding the ball the most should win." Harden's style of play is his style of play, it fills up the stat sheet but when he's inefficient or chokes in big games it isn't going to lead to meaningful wins.

And they were a great squad outside of Harden, what are you talking about?

Chris Paul
Eric Gordon
Trevor Ariza
P.J. Tucker
Clint Capela

How many teams in the NBA could you take away an MVP candidate and still have a starting five that solid left over? Of course they ain't a championship squad without him but they ain't a championship squad WITH him either.

Like I pointed out before, the squad he had in OKC was great and he still played like shyt when it mattered. In 2015 his squad beat the Clippers with him on the bench. In Game 5 against the Warriors everyone else played well (while Curry and Draymond couldn't hit anything) and Rockets still lost solely because Harden played like shyt. In 2017 he was THE reason they lost to a mediocre Spurs team with no Kawhi. In 2018 they beat the Jazz with him playing like shyt. They won games off the Warriors with him playing like shyt. It's bullshyt to say that he didn't have good squads.
none of those players would be able to successfully sustain the style of play the rockets are seemingly sworn to

maybe they could scrape wins out & go on a run if they played a more mobstyle production by committee scheme like the recent clipps

the squad is shyte for the style they play

they rely on one top gun & when he runs out of ammunition it doesn't work the same

the times they had to go to a more team based scheme to win shows they are capable in some capacity

but then they revert to overreliance on harden

it's about balance

that squad is not gonna win without harden & harden ain't gonna carry them dolo

it's the job of the coaching staff & the suits to figure that shyte out

the most successful squads have contingencies to adapt & win in different scenarios

we see any player who is placed in that position of overreliance hits a wall

it can be a perimeter player like harden or a nikka tryna dunk everything like giannis

eventually either you gotta have multiple #1 option quality players or have a squad that can scrape it up by committee

wins & losses get credited to the team

harden is supposed to burn out every player playing that style does we seen it all throughout history ha

it's about how you use the weapons at your disposal

the rockets been on some bs

*
 

murksiderock

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You’re being ridiculous. Iverson made the playoffs 2 more times than Pierce from 98-05. Top to bottom Iverson had better teammates than Pierce too, with the exception of Antoine Walker.

We’re not talking about Pierce vs Iverson though. My point is, from my very first post I’m this thread. Is that Harden is a gimmick player. He can have a team full of the greatest offensive threats in nba history. And he would still put up the best stats because how gimmicky his game is. People read too much into stats without actually watching the game.

Harden puts up better numbers than Jordan and Kobe, is he better? Smh

I brought up Iverson when guys started defending Pierce as a guy who played with weak rosters. So did AI and he did more with less than Pierce did...

Focusing on Harden, you missed the part where I said it isn't solely about numbers to me. You can call his offense gimmicky but its effective in the regular season and has led to months of dominant, takeover play. He's an elite foul drawer, and an above average shooter for such a volume shooter. He does this without being crazy athletic or fast, his ability to get guys to bite on a hesi or catch them in the air is elite...

Gimmicky, maybe, I don't have a problem with that word. But he's carried his team further as a #1, oftentimes going stretches without even having his ancillary pieces, than many guys have. He deserves credit for that...
 

JYoung24

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He wins games at the end of the day and produces while doing so. The only reason he doesnt have a ring or two is because of Kevin Durant. But I knew you were just biased when you tried to make the argument that pierce was better. Much better than pierce.

Durant isnt the reason he doesnt have a chip hes lost to before durant even got to goldenstate
 

JYoung24

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You guys realize Steph has had shyt games in the playoffs too right? And they won because he still had Klay to help him and Durant. Wtf happens when Harden has an off game? So he’s supposed to be perfect every game?

Hardens teammates ball when he has bad games
 

JYoung24

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pdouble ain't the only one

i'm sure cats know there are some hof players & legends who ain't never been on a squad that won it all


going on annual playoff runs but losing to a team significantly better than you is an issue¿

even mj was getting powerbombed & drop.kicked until the bulls became the leagues best squad

i always say it's more of a rockets problem than a harden problem

the rockets been running into better teams & harden even with retarded statlines can't 1v5 the situation

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He didnt always lose to better teams hell they were the better team then the warriors on paper when durant went out and he still lost. Hes also had teamates who stepped up when he was playing like trash
 

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He didnt always lose to better teams hell they were the better team then the warriors on paper when durant went out and he still lost. Hes also had teamates who stepped up when he was playing like trash
gsw roster minus kd is still wild

they were multiple times champs without kd ha

they can step up but can they do it consistently enough to get them all the way to the finish line¿

salute them for scrapping up a win here & there but then remember the times your #1 puts up almost 40 but the squad couldn't chip in enough

like i said it's a balance other championship tier squads sustain bad series from their #1 houston hasn't been able to

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