Jim Ross goes off on the status of heels in WWE

[DocZulu]

I love the thread. This is why we're the TSC.

I wanna holla at my man Kill Dat Noize because I think we differ in the details, but not the larger issues.

To begin, villains are supposed to oppose the fans, not the heroes. The hero is the embodiment of our values, and that is why we cheer for them.

When heels appeal to fans, fans read them as reflecting "our" values. That's why booking is so important.

The racist Tag Team is portrayed as strong and athletic, and the announcers routinely validate their political beliefs. Back in the 90's the WWE/WCW would have denounced ideologies.

Consider Nikolai Volkoff and the Iron Sheik. Or, go back to the way fans booed Sgt Slaughter when he turned.

Wrestlers are making a mistake, but that's because the writing team doesn't understand wrestling. Vince ought to be ashamed of himself, but alas, he doesn't seem to care anymore.

The fans may be racist, or sexist, but they aren't dumb. The writers & announcers are.

Fans only care about the cool, because we always identify with cool.

Plus if there's anything we've learned it's that these fukkin idiot fans will chant anything.

ANYTHING.

Doesn't matter who you are. You could cut a promo about fukking Daniel Bryan's mother in the ass with a steel pipe and as long as you could find a way to get the fans involved, as long as you make them feel like they're apart of the show... you will get over. You see because fans no longer demand creativity and innovation from their wrestling superstars. They no longer want someone to put their faith in and believe in. Like HHH and Steph said in that promo, fans don't want to put in the work. They just wanna latch on and chant shyt.

And sadly the audiences have conditioned these wrestlers to think that the only way to get over is to get a chant going. So none of these guys feel they need to push the boundaries anymore and give us anything innovative or fresh. They just go out there and concoct methods to encourage some type of fan reaction. I still maintain to this day that Daniel Bryan isn't over. It's his CHANT that's over.

These dumb muthafukkin fans were actually chanting "WE THE PEOPLE" along with Zeb even though they knew full well the hateful and intolerant origin of the catchphrase. But because fans love to chant, because they have no other way to entertain themselves... this redneck hillbilly conservative tight ass BAD GUY manager had arenas chanting along with him in unison. It makes no sense.

JR is right. If there are heels getting positive reactions for whatever reason... then stop whatever it is that they're doing and change course. A heel's job is to get HEAT. That's it. If you're not getting HEAT then you aren't doing your job as a heel.

 

[Silkk]

Lotta crazy shyt being said in here

 

[robb]

can we say all this shyt started with the main playas of the NWO
heels u actually wanted to cheer for.

 

[Kidd Dibiase]

can we say all this shyt started with the main playas of the NWO
heels u actually wanted to cheer for.

yea thats fair

 

[Berniewood Hogan]

can we say all this shyt started with the main playas of the NWO
heels u actually wanted to cheer for.

FINALLY, AN EXCUSE TO TURN HEEL AGAIN, BROTHER!

 

[Rack4K]

Yea but I bet you those guys didn't make their name ON the catchphrase. They had other things goin for them as well.

The Rock wasn't just a catchphrase people took to him because of the way he carried himself. The way this nikka used to walk down the aisle like his shyt don't stink. The way he beat nikkas wearin a 500 dollar shirt. The way he would refer to himself in the third person. The sunglasses. The eyebrow. The elbow. It was everything. He was a scumbag to the fullest that you wanted to hate but at the end of the day you knew he was the coolest muthafukkin alpha male in the WWF. And so when he eased up on the heel shyt and started gettin booked as a face the crowd already had a solid platform to get behind when it came to his character. He was a fully developed, fully realized superstar. The catchphrases were just one facet of his act of which he had many.

But that's all Daniel Bryan is right now. A catchphrase. A living, breathing, walking catchphrase. A vessel for the fans so that they could all chant their heads off and feel like they're apart of the show. Who cares if the chant doesn't mean anything? Who cares if the guy we're chanting for isn't good enough to be the world champion? All that matters is that we have a voice and that we could make a difference. If he sucks we'll just hype up the next guy!

Well I hope you're happy because you guys got exactly you wanted. Bryan got the strap. And I sure would like to know what the fukk they have planned for that character now that he isn't the underdog anymore. Because I gotta tell you folks I don't trust Daniel Bryan's ability to tell a story unless it's between 2 bells.

It's as if you didn't see his original WHC heel run with AJ as his valet, where his character got the chant over, not the other way around.

Or his anger management/Team Hell No run with Kane which was the most entertaining stuff going at the time. While it seems likely Kane played a bigger part in that, it was far from a one man show. An entire run in which he didn't use the Yes chant at all...yet both he and the chant stayed over.

No, he's not Rock or Austin. No one is. But he has no less of a character than Orton or Batista.

 

[Kill Dat Noize]

It's as if you didn't see his original WHC heel run with AJ as his valet, where his character got the chant over, not the other way around.

Or his anger management/Team Hell No run with Kane which was the most entertaining stuff going at the time. While it seems likely Kane played a bigger part in that, it was far from a one man show. An entire run in which he didn't use the Yes chant at all...yet both he and the chant stayed over.

No, he's not Rock or Austin. No one is. But he has no less of a character than Orton or Batista.

Well neither of those guys are anything special either.

But it ain't just about not having any character it's about getting the fans and getting ME to believe in you. When I see Daniel Bryan out there making his case for why he should be the champ I DON'T BELIEVE HIM. I see a guy who's explosive in the ring and a guy who loves to wrestle but what I don't see is a guy who can make me believe he's the best wrestler in the WWE.

And that's your primary job as a performer, to get these people to believe in you. And you have to ask yourself do these people really BELIEVE in Daniel Bryan or do they just chant because they desire to be apart of something.

Like I said now that the journey is over and the chase is over and the the underdog angle no longer plays, it's gonna be very interesting to see where this goes. I'm not sure what else there is to cling to when it comes to that character. I don't know if he has the versatility to keep you engaged. If he's still this "over" as a babyface in 7-8 months I would be highly surprised.

 

[DANJ!]

Shortcut? Two whole years is a shortcut? Not to mention in that time he has been:

a abusive boyfriend
caught in a love quadrangle
an angry single wrestler
a dysfunctional/delusional tag team wrestler
underwent therapy
insecure in his own abilities (weak link)
accepted his abilities
oppressed by the authority
nearly gave up against the authority (wyatt)
perservered and overcame the authority

Exactly... homie talkin' bout he can't tell a story outside the ring. He's told plenty. The main story being that he was great and could be champion if given the opportunity and not bein' fukked over. Story was told so good, people genuinely believed he was being held back in real life in some mean spirited plot. People WANTED him to finally get his win, ranted about why he wasnt getting it, even at a time it would've made no sense... people just wanted to see it happen so bad, they would've taken it any time they could get it. He coulda won the shyt on Smackdown and even if it was absolutely pointless and non-profitable, people woulda been glad he won it, cause they felt he DESERVED it. When's the last time people were behind someone like that?

 

[ThatKidBlackHippy]

lol if every heel is a cowardly heel it'd be pretty redundant

 

[DANJ!]

lol if every heel is a cowardly heel it'd be pretty redundant

I'm pretty sure he's not saying every heel should do the same exact thing. All the things he listed are heel characteristics that since forever ago have all worked in building a heel. Be cowardly OR be a bully. Be arrogant OR be a whiner. Be rude to the fans OR be patronizing.

But if a heel is doin none of those things, and is actually doin' the complete opposite of those things, is that person even being a heel at that point? Nah.

 

[TNC]

Stop, breh...

That's like saying "they woulda cheered anybody that drank beer, it just happened to be Austin"

The "yes" chant added to Bryan already being over and became his hook... the chant was more over than he was two years ago, maybe. But he's gotten very much over since then with or without the chant. He's proven over the last year that he can beat the top guys, and then there's the constantly bein screwed that made people wanna cheer for him more. He's very much over now. If the "yes" chant was the only thing over, they coulda made it a universal WWE chant (like 'what') and he wouldn't be the most popular star they currently have.

Ya'll are kind of playing "What came first, the chicken or the egg?"


Fact is, Bryan, since coming on NXT, had the fans attention and even made himself a star by the end of the 1st episode. Since then its been a combination of his AMAZING ring work, character development and making the best out of bad angles/situations that led to good booking.

Sure, the YES chant played a major part in getting him over, but look at fukkin Ryback. FEED ME MORE was over as shyt but because Ryback wasn't able to hold his own as a character, was bad in the ring and didn't develop his character look at him now.

Bryan DID luck up with the YES chant but he smartly developed his character from the NXT rookie, to the up and coming mid carder to the snarky heel to Team Hell No to a viable main eventer to the most over guy in the company in the time frame the WWE gave him. Ryback and countless others could have done the same with their opportunities but did not or could not.


AT SOME POINT, you and everyone else has to acknowledge Bryan may have lucked up in getting over but his hard work and determination KEPT him over and that's why he's a level above the rest.

 

[daboywonder2002]

i think for heels its not just about being a coward. first you gotta establish a top notch good guy. back in wwf- hogan was that guy. you turned against hogan, you immediately got booed. andre the giant, macho man, paul orndoff, boss man. i could go on. if your a heel, interact with the crowd. remember rick rude calling the fans fat and sloppy. or dibiase kicking the ball out of the little boys hands. its all about heel tactics. or sgt slaughter turning his back on america. now a days heels are made out to be cool- lets take the nwo. hogan turns on savage. i mean people threw every piece of trash in that ring nwo dominates. then all of a sudden, nwo is cool. people buying nwo t-shirts?? same thing witih dx. dominant heels- but somewhere along the line- they became cool with the catchphrases and the music.

 

[TNC]

No it's not.

Austin was over as a CHARACTER and as a PERFORMER.

From the music, to the strut, to the cuss words, to the beer, to the attitude, to the looks... to the way he could CONTROL the crowd whenever he grabbed a mic. And mind you I'm not even talkin about the catchphrases. Just listen to the guy talk for a few minutes and watch how captivated those crowds were. They FED off that energy.

With Bryan it's JUST about the chant.

You just gonna ignore the YEARS of classic matches Bryan has given us week in, week out?

You just gonna ignore him running with bad angles and turning it into something watchable?

You just gonna ignore him developing his character to a point the show started to be booked around him?


At some point, you gotta give Bryan credit for not ending up like Ryback when odds are that is what should have happened.

 

[daboywonder2002]

its heels out there, but people so concerned about their mic work. everybody is not a ric flair or rock. if you cant cut a promo, lets bring in more managers. i miss the monster heel. no talking no nonsense. what happened to mark henry? big e? those two should be monster heeels. ziggler should be that cocky steal your girl heel. wade barett and heath slater. yet wwe makes these guys jobbers. damien sandow .

 

[snikt6384]

JBL with that excellence. Indulge yourselves, brehs.

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