Joe Biden’s brilliant critique of Medicare for all has made me rethink my position

[chico25]

the federal government would give those savings back, and then some and the study just throws numbers around without taking into account that the entity that's paying is gonna switch exclusively to the government

let me get this fukkin straight: the federal government is 22 trillion dollars in debt right now, driven by the most unaccountable behavior and money management this planet has ever seen, and im the bad guy for saying i dont trust them to roll this out?

@For Da Bag
@Domingo Halliburton
@rapbeats
@Mephistopheles

i don't have anything else to say past the above sentence. i'll just let you guys call me a mexican hater, or whatever you're doing

The savings would be for citizens. Those of us currently paying health insurance premiums and still dealing with high deductibles and co-pays would have those out of pocket costs reduced because while our tax rate would go up we would no longer have those other costs, which are greater and wouldn't have to pay anything out of pocket for going to the doctor.


In other words if my annual taxes went up by $2600 but I no longer had to pay $3900 per year for health insurance then I would save $1300 annually. And that's just the premium without even looking at how much would be saved if I actually had to go to the doctor.

I don't know the exact amount that my taxes would increase or if they would increase at all at my tax bracket but even if this did increase the amount of taxes that the middle class paid they could still potentially come out on the winning side. The studies done on it point to that being the case.

 

[Dusty Bake Activate]

the federal government would give those savings back, and then some and the study just throws numbers around without taking into account that the entity that's paying is gonna switch exclusively to the government

let me get this fukkin straight: the federal government is 22 trillion dollars in debt right now, driven by the most unaccountable behavior and money management this planet has ever seen, and im the bad guy for saying i dont trust them to roll this out?

@For Da Bag
@Domingo Halliburton
@rapbeats
@Mephistopheles

i don't have anything else to say past the above sentence. i'll just let you guys call me a mexican hater, or whatever you're doing

I know. 2016 Bernie said we need M4A and you agreed because he’s a white man. Now Biden says we don’t need M4A and you agree because he’s a more racist more conservative white man.

 

[rapbeats]

maybe it would and maybe the cost will end up being passed onto the taxpayer exclusively. and maybe, when healthcare is "free", they havent taken account of how many more people will start using services. which isn't a bad thing obviously, but from a financial standpoint

take away that camel face. not true. if more people start utilizing healthcare. early on their will be a spike in costs. but once we do the math and notice that preventative care is better than emergency care. like...wayyyyyyy better. its the equivalent of (since you like to use analogies outside of healthcare) of choosing to be nothing but firemen or a mix of firemen and people using fire retardant on your homes to help keep your house from burning down at the first hint of a spark.

The healthier you keep people off the bat the healthier your overall population will remain for a much longer period of time. which will save you tons of cash in the end.

You keep these kids nutrition right, you keep them exercising because now its not a personal thing its a NATIONAL thing to do and is promoted as such. These kids wont fall into that pre type II diabetes area. sure some will due to DNA. they cant help that. but even they will not have to be put on insulin any time soon and will not have to pop a bunch of expensive pills and make a bunch of expensive visits to the doc.

You take care of the kid early in life, he will end up staying on that regimen because it will be a part of his life. he's been doing it since he was a kid. you now dont have another diabetic in the mix. no diabetic, no worrying about having him coming in for heart issues due to the db. and other issues. no possibility of any feet getting cut off cause of his diabetic complications. Do you know how much money you just saved????

and shoot. the better the health of you citizens the more they produce with higher quality. i bet you they will end up earning more if you pull the data over a decades time. you will also stop losing good solid tax payers at 35 to 50 years old, when people start getting into their stride when it comes to their careers and making a living.

all that has to be factored in.

 

[the cac mamba]

I know. 2016 Bernie said we need M4A and you agreed because he’s a white man. Now Biden says we don’t need M4A and you agree because he’s a more racist more conservative white man.

i supported bernie because he was honest, not because i thought he could pass the policies he was talking about. im not a naive fukkin idiot

the fact that you have to resort to this bullshyt with your arguments embarrassing

 

[the cac mamba]

In other words if my annual taxes went up by $2600 but I no longer had to pay $3900 per year for health insurance then I would save $1300 annually.

breh you think i really have a problem with this? i just don't see it actually being done right

whats gonna happen is someone will eventually get in and propose this, and someone is gonna hold them accountable and ask for a hard budget and the hard numbers, and to promise that people who come here illegally don't benefit from it. and they're gonna and back off of it

mark my fukkin words

 

[storyteller]

as opposed to what? you arent?

everyone in the fukkin thread is guessing. none of this is a reality yet, and you don;t have a same-size country to point to as an example

Your two assertions run counter.

1. For one you're pointing out the size of the US and asking us to find a same sized country as if the US isn't the third largest country on the planet. We have two options from the 195 countries on the planet (also the fourth largest country, Indonesia is working on a UHC plan currently though I'd have to dig deeper into how that's progressing). What makes this even more frustrating is that I acknowledged the size creating challenges that would have to be addressed over time in my initial post.

2. You're claiming that the addition of 500,000 to 1 million people into that system will break it, even though that total would represent an increase 0.3% of the people to the system.

This doesn't seem like a logical combination of beliefs at all. @Black Panther had this approach pegged in number 2 of his spotting bad faith arguments thread...

Number 2: Responding to objections to these assertions with mere repetitions and/or restatements without giving consideration to the objections. For instance, saying “I have considered your claims and don’t think they have any merit,” without providing why they are without merit, is not arguing in good faith).

i think the sheer amount of people you have to take care of will eventually outpace the scale when it comes to the money you have to spread around. especially if you have 500,000-1 million people showing up at the border every year who do not contribute their share of healthcare costs. not because they're bad people, but because the poor just do not by the hard numbers

you can't point to a single country that's anywhere near 330 million people, and does not have a strict immigration policy, that effectively offers universal healthcare to everyone. and that's not my opinion.

I definitely think it would be naive to believe we can plot out M4A for 330 million people without any hiccups that will require adjustments along the way (just like any other policy though which is why I don't think this is a great argument tbh) but that also makes 500,000 - 1 million additional people a relatively small and manageable number...an increase by 1/330th on the high end or 1/660th on the low end isn't gonna break any system and if you're concerned about the amount they contribute then a path to citizenship seems like a smart way to get those contributions up doesn't it?

nah, not really. i don't think a mass of low-skilled people makes a meaningful contribution to healthcare costs vs the healthcare they require themselves

So yeah...I acknowledge that size will create some issues, my problem is with you trying to tie in immigration and the logic behind my problem is REALLY easy to follow here. 0.3% isn't a significant enough increase to create the problems you seem to be implying it would. Do you have an actual response to that or is it just gonna be "I don't think so," save me some time breh.

 

[Black Panther]

Your two assertions run counter.

1. For one you're pointing out the size of the US and asking us to find a same sized country as if the US isn't the third largest country on the planet. We have two options from the 195 countries on the planet (also the fourth largest country, Indonesia is working on a UHC plan currently though I'd have to dig deeper into how that's progressing). What makes this even more frustrating is that I acknowledged the size creating challenges that would have to be addressed over time in my initial post.

2. You're claiming that the addition of 500,000 to 1 million people into that system will break it, even though that total would represent an increase 0.3% of the people to the system.

This doesn't seem like a logical combination of beliefs at all. @Black Panther had this approach pegged in number 2 of his spotting bad faith arguments thread...










So yeah...I acknowledge that size will create some issues, my problem is with you trying to tie in immigration and the logic behind my problem is REALLY easy to follow here. 0.3% isn't a significant enough increase to create the problems you seem to be implying it would. Do you have an actual response to that or is it just gonna be "I don't think so," save me some time breh.

Putting @the cac mamba on ignore has proven to be a smart decision so far. :bpbanderas:

 

[the cac mamba]

Your two assertions run counter.

1. For one you're pointing out the size of the US and asking us to find a same sized country as if the US isn't the third largest country on the planet. We have two options from the 195 countries on the planet (also the fourth largest country, Indonesia is working on a UHC plan currently though I'd have to dig deeper into how that's progressing). What makes this even more frustrating is that I acknowledged the size creating challenges that would have to be addressed over time in my initial post.

2. You're claiming that the addition of 500,000 to 1 million people into that system will break it, even though that total would represent an increase 0.3% of the people to the system.

This doesn't seem like a logical combination of beliefs at all. @Black Panther had this approach pegged in number 2 of his spotting bad faith arguments thread...










So yeah...I acknowledge that size will create some issues, my problem is with you trying to tie in immigration and the logic behind my problem is REALLY easy to follow here. 0.3% isn't a significant enough increase to create the problems you seem to be implying it would. Do you have an actual response to that or is it just gonna be "I don't think so," save me some time breh.

i said it doesnt help. you guys, with your knee jerk reaction to anything that isnt open borders, picked that out and ran with it

 

[the cac mamba]

Putting @the cac mamba on ignore has proven to be a smart decision so far. :bpbanderas:

youll welch on that eventually much like your betmaking

 

[storyteller]

i said it doesnt help. you guys, with your knee jerk reaction to anything that isnt open borders, picked that out and ran with it

My knee jerk reaction was to acknowledge your first point and explain why the second point was statistically insignificant breh. You brought immigration into this when it has zero relevance to the discussion and now you're sounding hella defensive. But whatever fam do you.

 

[Secure Da Bag]

In theory you're correct, but the reality of this, in America is

We can be better, fam.

 

[Pressure]

In the end Joe is probably going to settle on asking for a public option.

 

[the cac mamba]

My knee jerk reaction was to acknowledge your first point and explain why the second point was statistically insignificant breh. You brought immigration into this when it has zero relevance to the discussion and now you're sounding hella defensive. But whatever fam do you.

we've already established that i'm wrong

the same government that brought you 22 trillion dollar debt, the unaccountable public union, and the art of the cost overrun will carry out medicare for all, including people who come here illegally, to an absolute T

 

[Berniewood Hogan]

It's hilarious having cac mamba on ignore.

It's just post after post of people saying "That's stupid, you're a fukking idiot."

 

[the cac mamba]

take away that camel face. not true. if more people start utilizing healthcare. early on their will be a spike in costs. but once we do the math and notice that preventative care is better than emergency care. like...wayyyyyyy better. its the equivalent of (since you like to use analogies outside of healthcare) of choosing to be nothing but firemen or a mix of firemen and people using fire retardant on your homes to help keep your house from burning down at the first hint of a spark.
.

heres some food for thought, with all this talk of "we're gonna kill all the insurance jobs" by bernie and co. because something tells me those studies only looked at the cost of medicine, and left bernie's idea out of it

insurance companies can fire their employees if they do badly. and they don't pay people pensions when they turn 50 for the rest of their life, they match them on a 401k

does "medicare for all" include turning 1 million employees who are accountable by private business practices, and have a 401k for retirement, into 1 million federal government employees who cannot be fired, are completely unaccountable, and are getting 80 percent pensions at age 50 on the taxpayer's dime? because if that's the case, i'll tell you right now that i will NOT be voting for medicare for all