Lebron's Defense on Rose in that 4th Quarter :ehh:

[Primetime]

Yes, 2011 LeBron is honestly one of his worst versions. I cringe when people say he should have won MVP.

The athletic drop from 2010 to 2011 doesn’t get talked about enough. I don’t know if it’s just me but LeBron looked a lil taller like he grew an inch that summer. LeBron has never recovered his athleticism from his last Cleveland stint for as athletic as he still was.

Also, the Mavs zone just needs credit they locked up Kobe and Durant too in these playoffs.

The Mavs offense deserves credit too. The Bulls fukking up with their unforced turnovers and looking rattled helped take pressure off Miami because they could see them nyggas unraveling. Whereas with the Mavs, great defense or not, Dirk can still shoot over anyone, and their 3 point role players were on some ignorant shyt from beyond the arc, like what we saw in their series with the Lakers.

So Miami stayed on their heels on the defensive end, while having to deal with Dallas's own good defensive plan, in addition to Lebron not really being the post-up player he later became... so trying to out quick Jason Kidd, Shawn Marion, or Desean Stevenson with the soft zoning made him shakey as hell

 

[Professor Emeritus]

I love Deng but he couldn't create his own shot and is a 3rd option kinda guy. Boozer could only hit high post jumpers. Korver always choked in the playoffs for us and Bogans is a total non factor. Offense was totally dependent on a 6'2" guard to make something outta the nothing every time

The key is having a 2nd guy who can score off the dribble....they didn't have anyone who could make Miami pay for doubling Rose. Honestly they woulda been better served starting CJ Watson at 2...decent shooter and could get to the rack sometimes. Starting Bogans basically made it 3 on 5 offensively as Noah was no threat to score

Deng could create his own shot out of the post, not as effectively off the dribble but he was a decent ballhandler. Boozer could handle the ball and create too.

Take a look at these 2008 scouting reports and tell me if they match the narrative:

A tough, efficient post scorer who is a beast inside and can also make tough shots outside of the paint. Gets his touches from a balanced mix of pick and rolls, post ups, cuts, spot ups, and offensive rebounds. Understanding of the game and ability to make decisions on the fly makes him a great asset. Has one of the most consistent mid-range jump shots in the league amongst power forwards. Form isn't that pretty, but his release point is very high, his touch is soft, and his follow-through is always the same. Doesn't function all that well in catch and shoot situations, preferring to read the defense and create his own shot. Can shoot off the dribble, but simply doesn't drive all that often. Will only attack off the dribble to get his man in foul trouble or if his defender bites on a jab when he faces up. Almost exclusively drives left. Won't go to his crossover often, opting to spin off his man for lay ups or jumpers. Does a great job using his strength to establish position deep in the paint, and has excellent hands inside. Will get stripped when he puts his back to the basket from time to time. Very comfortable with his ability to hit a turnaround with a hand in his face. Will use all kind of little head and shoulder fakes to create space for his turnaround over his right shoulder. Will take some turnarounds over his left shoulder as well. Great fallaway shooter. Can finish equally well with either hand on counter moves, making him extremely difficult to guard once he catches the ball in position to score. Good face up shooter. Takes what the defense gives him going towards the rim. Uses a hook periodically, but it's not a go-to-move for him. Likes to bully his way inside and finish. Really knows how to use his body to create space and give himself room to finish. Will crash the glass, roll hard off of screens, and duck in whenever he can to get an open look. Strength makes him a load to keep away from the rim. Uses his body very effectively to shield the ball. Goes to the line at a solid rate and shoots a decent percentage. Very efficient in general. Very smart finisher at the rim. Gets a lot of looks by using leverage and getting position at the rim. An efficient option who is too strong and grounded in his fundamentals to not be productive. A very good passer on top of that. - Source: DraftExpress - Carlos Boozer DraftExpress Profile: Stats, Comparisons, and Outlook ©DraftExpress

His offensive game is one of the most versatile in the NBA, with between ten and fifteen percent of his offensive coming from each of post ups, spot ups, shots off of screens, cuts to the rim, offensive rebounds, and transition baskets. Few players match that statistical feat, but he is truly an atypical player. Has one of the League's best midrange games. Moves extremely well without the ball, and has a silky smooth stroke. A poor shooter from three-point range, but tends to only shoot from deep when he's wide open. Has good ball handling ability. Shows some good moves with his back to the basket. Length allows him to score in ways that most players can't, and he consistently uses his reach to his advantage on the offensive end. Could stand to improve his free throw shooting. - Source: DraftExpress - Luol Deng DraftExpress Profile: Stats, Comparisons, and Outlook ©DraftExpress

Boozer had been a consistent 20 and 10 on 55% shooting guy the previous four years and had already been the #2 on a WCF team (averaging 22 and 12 on 53% shooting against the Spurs in the WCF with Deron as the #1).

Deng had been a consistent 18 and 7 guy on 47% shooting the previous four years, back in 2007 when he was the #1 guy on a playoff team he averaged 26 and 9 on 58% shooting while sweeping the Wade/Shaq Heat in round 1 and then 20 and 9 on 48% shooting against Tayshun Prince defense in the ECSF. More recently in the 2010 1st round against LeBron's Cavs he'd put up 19 and 5 on 46% shooting while defending LeBron on the other end.

You're telling me that those can't be your 2nd/3rd options with a GOAT-level point guard as your #1 and a league-best defense behind you? Plus Korver and Bogans both averaged 42% from three in the 2011 playoffs, they just didn't get as many shots as they should have. They shot worse in the ECF but both still better than Rose. There's no reason he should have been taking 24 shots a game while shooting 35% (23% from three) when as you point out they were always doubling him.

I don't think enough attention is paid to how poorly Chicago's offense underperformed. The talent was there.

 

[Trot LaRoc]

Deng could create his own shot out of the post, not as effectively off the dribble but he was a decent ballhandler. Boozer could handle the ball and create too.

Take a look at these 2008 scouting reports and tell me if they match the narrative:


Boozer had been a consistent 20 and 10 on 55% shooting guy the previous four years and had already been the #2 on a WCF team (averaging 22 and 12 on 53% shooting against the Spurs in the WCF with Deron as the #1).

Deng had been a consistent 18 and 7 guy on 47% shooting the previous four years, back in 2007 when he was the #1 guy on a playoff team he averaged 26 and 9 on 58% shooting while sweeping the Wade/Shaq Heat in round 1 and then 20 and 9 on 48% shooting against Tayshun Prince defense in the ECSF. More recently in the 2010 1st round against LeBron's Cavs he'd put up 19 and 5 on 46% shooting while defending LeBron on the other end.

You're telling me that those can't be your 2nd/3rd options with a GOAT-level point guard as your #1 and a league-best defense behind you? Plus Korver and Bogans both averaged 42% from three in the 2011 playoffs, they just didn't get as many shots as they should have. They shot worse in the ECF but both still better than Rose. There's no reason he should have been taking 24 shots a game while shooting 35% (23% from three) when as you point out they were always doubling him.

I don't think enough attention is paid to how poorly Chicago's offense underperformed. The talent was there.

No. I'm a Bulls fan and watched most of their games. Deng is not a post player...he was a slasher who used his length to get in the lane with one dribble and shot a lot of 16 footers. He didn't have dependable handles at all...he had a super high, stiff handle. If he had good handles, he woulda been a perennial allstar bc he was pretty skilled overall
He also wasn't a consistent 3 pt shooter. You can't give Deng the ball and say create. They tried that when D Rose got hurt and it didn't work.

Boozer was limited to shooting jumpers, he was supposed to be our low post threat but once he left sloan's system, he got exposed as a 6'9 jumpshooter. All he did was shoot 18 foot rainbow Js.

Both of them are good players but neither are #2s bcc AGAIN they could not create offense for themselves or others

Bogans didn't need to be guarded....and when did shoot...he shot 30% from 3

Korver shot fukking 29% from 3 that series



No secondary scoring, absolutely no spacing....No win

Also Bosh gets no credit ...he really should...he was huge in that series and was Heat 2nd best guy. He demolished Boozer

 

[ISO]

Boozer declined in Chicago. I don’t know if it was Thibs offensive scheme or what...

But he was a great P&R and P&P player, had a wet midrange, and was a bruiser in the post dude was swole, he rebounded well too.

In Chicago he fell more and more in love with midrange jumpers.

 

[Professor Emeritus]

No. I'm a Bulls fan and watched most of their games. Deng is not a post player...he was a slasher who used his length to get in the lane with one dribble and shot a lot of 16 footers. He didn't have dependable handles at all...he had a super high, stiff handle. If he had good handles, he woulda been a perennial allstar bc he was pretty skilled overall
He also wasn't a consistent 3 pt shooter. You can't give Deng the ball and say create. They tried that when D Rose got hurt and it didn't work.

Boozer was limited to shooting jumpers, he was supposed to be our low post threat but once he left sloan's system, he got exposed as a 6'9 jumpshooter. All he did was shoot 18 foot rainbow Js.

Both of them are good players but neither are #2s bcc AGAIN they could not create offense for themselves or others

Bogans didn't need to be guarded....and when did shoot...he shot 30% from 3

Korver shot fukking 29% from 3 that series

No secondary scoring, absolutely no spacing....No win

I just told you that the problem was the system and how the offense was run, and all you did was repeat back to me that those guys performed poorly in that system.

I get that you watched the Bulls in 2011, we all did. But did you watch those same players the rest of the time? Were those 2008 scouting reports just made up? Was Deng not averaging 23ppg on great shooting as a #1 option in the 2007 playoffs? Was Boozer not a reliable 21 and 11 guy on great shooting numbers as the #2 option on Jazz teams that made it all the way to the WCF?

If Boozer can be a #2 behind Deron Williams, you would think he can be a #2 behind Derrick Rose. If Deng can score plenty as the #1 with Heinrich getting him his shots, you'd think that Rose should be able to get him good enough shots as the #2/#3.

And so far as those shooters go, in the 1st two rounds of the playoffs that year, Korver made 47% of his threes (18-38) and Bogans made 49% of his threes (19-39). Both of them could shoot. You're right that they fell off during the ECF, but Rose was shooting 23% from three in the ECF and not that much better from two, he had no business taking 24 shots/game against defense meant to suffocate him and they could have done a better job getting the shooters better shots.

 

[jwinfield]

Deng had been a consistent 18 and 7 guy on 47% shooting the previous four years, back in 2007 when he was the #1 guy on a playoff team he averaged 26 and 9 on 58% shooting while sweeping the Wade/Shaq Heat in round 1 and then 20 and 9 on 48% shooting against Tayshun Prince defense in the ECSF. More recently in the 2010 1st round against LeBron's Cavs he'd put up 19 and 5 on 46% shooting while defending LeBron on the other end.

He was getting his buckets off of kick outs, coming off screens and cuts.

You weren't giving Deng the ball and telling him to get buckets.

That 07 team also had Kirk who had a career offensive year in terms of shooting and BG who was the team's #1 option.

 

[Trot LaRoc]

He was getting his buckets off of kick outs, coming off screens and cuts.

You weren't giving Deng the ball and telling him to get buckets.

That 07 team also had Kirk who had a career offensive year in terms of shooting and BG who was the team's #1 option.

Thank you. Deng was never a consistent go-to scorer....dude bringing up 2007 against a Heat that didn't have 3 all pros. Deng was super solid but a #3 on a champion caliber team

Boozer was a system player....take him outta that system and he got exposed

Also Thibs was not a good offensive coach...it wasn't a high priority for him

 

[NYC Rebel]

I'm saying, Lebron individually doesn't deserve any credit for the Bulls not being able to score

The thread title says Derrick Rose, not the entire Bulls roster. "Lebron's Defense on Rose in that 4th Quarter" to be exact.
What have you disputed?

 

[Professor Emeritus]

He was getting his buckets off of kick outs, coming off screens and cuts.

You weren't giving Deng the ball and telling him to get buckets.

First off, you're describing plenty of perfectly good #2 scoring options. There have been lots of scorers who made their living off of off-ball movement, cutting, rolling to the hoop, etc. Look at Klay Thompson or Reggie Miller. Even AD on the Lakers this year was by far the most effective when he was diving to the hoop, rolling off of screens, playing the pick-and-pop, etc. It's not like the Lakers handed him the ball 15 times a game saying, "Create your own shot", and anyone who watched the Lakers this year knows that when that did happen the results were often pretty inefficient. AD and Reggie are obviously more talented than Boozer and Deng, but the manner in which they're used is basically in the same range. Considering that the Bulls had D-Rose as an elite #1 option AND Boozer AND Deng, that's enough wealth to run a real offense. It was the system and the distribution that was the problem.

Second, Deng's offensive repertoire was broader than you give him credit for. You posted one video from the game where he actually made the fewest shots that first round - in the other three games he was 14-22, 11-19, and 10-18. Even against Detroit's defense he averaged 20ppg including a 25 points on 10-15 game. Why couldn't Rose get him buckets like that?

I already showed you the scouting report that described how he had a varied repertoire and could handle the ball as well as score in the post. Here are some highlights showing that variety from that same time frame (I started it on a crossover leading to a jumper and the video ends on a behind-the-back dribble leading to a drive and dunk, but especially look at the sequence from 1:40-2:22 where he fakes guys off their feet to drive on them or uses the jab step to set up a jumper):

 

[ISO]

I always hate that people credit Lebron for the Bulls being inept

Nah. The Bulls won 62 games. Any team that loses any series has some ineptitudes that were exploited.

LeBron beat a great team and should be credited with such. Only LeBron gets his competition downplayed. I never see anyone do this for MJ. Bosh also deserves a lot of credit it’s by far the best playoff series he had on the Heat. He was better than Wade in this series.

 

[jwinfield]

Look at Klay Thompson or Reggie Miller.

You're comparing Deng to two of the greatest shooters of all time, Klay is one of the most explosive shooters ever. He dropped 60, Lu's not doing that.

I already showed you the scouting report that described how he had a varied repertoire and could handle the ball as well as score in the post.

Deng didn't have good handles. He just didn't.

Him having a couple of crossovers in a mixtape doesn't negate his career where his handles were stiff as hell.

Here's a scouting report.

Breakdown of the Strengths and Weaknesses of the Chicago Bulls Starters

For a wing, Deng is not a very good ball handler. The problem is more about his confidence than his actual ability, though. When he just goes on automatic, he actually does fine. However he thinks too much, and when he does, he looks at the ball, and that slows him down and he doesn't play nearly as well. As a result, he only averages .73 points per play in isolation, which is really bad for a small forward.

Nobody was stopping Lu from taking more than 4 dribbles before kicking it out because he couldn't do shyt with it.

 

[Brozay]

Im one of the biggest Loul Deng fans here, but I can only at someone acting like he was a legit second option, esp when going up against a trio of Bron, Wade & Bosh.

 

[jwinfield]

Im one of the biggest Loul Deng fans here, but I can only at someone acting like he was a legit second option, esp when going up against a trio of Bron, Wade & Bosh.

Apparently Lu had handles and could get buckets in the post

 

[NYC Rebel]

Nah. The Bulls won 62 games. Any team that loses any series has some ineptitudes that were exploited.

LeBron beat a great team and should be credited with such. Only LeBron gets his competition downplayed. I never see anyone do this for MJ. Bosh also deserves a lot of credit it’s by far the best playoff series he had on the Heat. He was better than Wade in this series.

Yup. Downplay those wack 90s teams the Bulls faced and dudes get pissed.

 

[Dwight Howard]

I’m thankful the NBA realized the concept of spacing after this season. The Heat and Bulls had none.

The 2011 Mavs were really one of the first pace and space teams. Dirk of course being the revolutionary shooting big man. Tyson the first “vertical spacer”. Then the shooters Kidd, Stevenson, Peja, Terry, etc.

Did you miss the entire mid-2000's Suns?