Living wage advocates, how are restaruant owners supposed to deal with being squeezed like this?

[88m3]

On paper, unions are great. In real life, unions are horrible and just suck the blood out of a workforce to do nothing but serve their own interests. Need proof? Look at the NYPD's union......

I agree that workers need more leverage against the companies they work for, but it would be better for that to come through broader legal means, like severely chopping down corporations' ability to lobby and giving workers clearer more powerful channels to negotiate with employers.

hyperbole

Yes, use the NYPD as your example as well.

 

[Misanthrope]

I'm not just talking certs. Your example makes some good points though.

Not to sound like @DEAD7 but I have two questions. One, obviously nurses and doctors can do a lot more than HHAs and PCAs. But what is the value of having doctors and nurses do stuff like a patient's housekeeping, laundry, grocery shopping etc.? What is the value of having doctors and nurses driving out to give patients daily care? I don't think there is much overlap in the functions of the low paying and high paying jobs you described.

Obviously, there is a lot of difference between jobs, and a nurse is overvalued to do most of the grunt work that a HHA/PCA does. Where I feel like it's going [not just in healthcare, I just used healthcare because the differential in jobs created is amazing] is to have the low-tier workers pick up the "basic" functions of a higher-skilled worker, fire most of the high-skills, high-pay workers, and keep one or two "managers/team leaders" on to handle the situations that the low-skill workers and automation can't handle. You're right that people need to step their individual game up but I think the system is being built for mid-level jobs where you have to be the best in your field or have big experience to survive.

2, $21K/yr....... this is going to pull some low quality talent and yield a system rife with abuse and other issues. It makes me cringe to say this but the market will correct itself.... this kind of work is not easy and the frustrations of low pay often result in workers acting out on patients. Do you really see these jobs paying this low forever? I don't.

It already brings in low-quality talent. I've seen HHA's quit on the spot because they couldn't handle patients, HHA's that were outright thieves, and plenty of people milking hours for nothing. If we can keep unemployment and immigration up, and the social safety net low, then why not keep pay low forever? Just look at the trucking industry, turnover rates are over 90% per year, but freight keeps moving.

 

[TLR Is Mental Poison]

hyperbole

Yes, use the NYPD as your example as well.

Can you name a good American union? UAW, SEIU are not much better. Lol @ new UAW employees getting hit with that "tiered" pay to fund older employees unsustainable pensions. Workers need more leverage but unions demonstrate time and time again they are not the answer.

 

[TLR Is Mental Poison]

Obviously, there is a lot of difference between jobs, and a nurse is overvalued to do most of the grunt work that a HHA/PCA does. Where I feel like it's going [not just in healthcare, I just used healthcare because the differential in jobs created is amazing] is to have the low-tier workers pick up the "basic" functions of a higher-skilled worker, fire most of the high-skills, high-pay workers, and keep one or two "managers/team leaders" on to handle the situations that the low-skill workers and automation can't handle. You're right that people need to step their individual game up but I think the system is being built for mid-level jobs where you have to be the best in your field or have big experience to survive.

True, nurses are overpaid for the kind of grunt work HHA/PCAs do. But nurses, particularly nurse practitioners, are filling the void being left by doctors leaving general family medicine to go into higher paying specialties. Doctors are being forced to go into higher paying specialties due to skyrocketing student loan balances. U come out of school with $200K in debt, $100-150K a year at age 30 or so won't cut it. I know a few doctors my age.... only one is even close to a GP and he works in trauma.

It already brings in low-quality talent. I've seen HHA's quit on the spot because they couldn't handle patients, HHA's that were outright thieves, and plenty of people milking hours for nothing. If we can keep unemployment and immigration up, and the social safety net low, then why not keep pay low forever? Just look at the trucking industry, turnover rates are over 90% per year, but freight keeps moving.

Well this gets into another issue. I think that kind of waste is enabled by the smokescreen of healthcare. Healthcare is getting more efficient but it's still incredibly wasteful. My mom is a respiratory therapist and she sees a lot of BS too. People sleeping on the job, all kinds of shyt. When they money is just pouring in regardless of what you do people default to their worst level of performance.... which is another reason why a super high MW is a bad idea.

Using healthcare as an example is tricky because it's unique... but I think that's kind of the point. Every sector has unique challenges and parameters, so I'm not sure it's fair to apply a one size fits all assessment to everything.

 

[Misanthrope]

People sleeping on the job, all kinds of shyt. When they money is just pouring in regardless of what you do people default to their worst level of performance.... which is another reason why a super high MW is a bad idea.

Using healthcare as an example is tricky because it's unique... but I think that's kind of the point. Every sector has unique challenges and parameters, so I'm not sure it's fair to apply a one size fits all assessment to everything.

I wouldn't mind a reasonable raise in the MW for the reason that it would require employers to take an actual look at which employees matter to a company, and which don't, and to get rid of the issue brought up by others where we subsidize full time workers.. The issue there is that we already don't have jobs for all the people now that want a job. If we started cutting all the deadwood out of jobs unemployment would explode.

Yeah, every sector has it's specific issues. Most trucking actually pays below minimum wage when you look at pay/hours not at home, and it's industry standard for people to work 65-80 hours a week. I'm sure every industry has it's flaws, but I believe the main flaw is that there simply are not enough jobs. More jobs would create competition among employers to keep trained employees, and would raise wages without making the Feds step in.

 

[TLR Is Mental Poison]

I wouldn't mind a reasonable raise in the MW for the reason that it would require employers to take an actual look at which employees matter to a company, and which don't,

Like I said that would price a lot of MW workers out of the market... brehs dont want that.

I believe the main flaw is that there simply are not enough jobs.

Debatable and legit to a point. The mere issue of the US having its largest population ever, looking at even more growth in the future, speaks to this basic problem. Automation is also a threat. But IMO history has shown that big innovations lead to new jobs nobody even considered before. So I'm on the fence. I think if we plan well ( ) we can manage.

 

[The Maverick]

It's amazing to me people are arguing against their own benefit and the benefit of the nation. Wages have been stagnant for a LONG time, and yet the price of everything continually goes up. I remember getting a combo was 5 dollars, and now its at a minimum 7 dollars, if not 8. Gas tripled since the 90s. So many things have shot up in price and yet companies have been doing their best to CUT compensation packages and lower wages through various means, so if the trend continues, we're essentially headed towards 3rd world status. What's common in 3rd world countries. Is it a robust middle class where most are getting paid fair wages? Nah, it's a situation in which there are super elite and then a vast underclass getting paid an amount so small that they can never save enough to pull themselves out... and this is the future some people are arguing for as long as they feel they are 'above the fray'. Somehow companies are making tons in profits and they pay CEOS millions in bonuses alone, with elaborate golden parachute clauses, and yet somehow they can't pay workers.

Some guys think that this is fine as long as they get to remain in a higher crust than the serfs. As long as they have their 50k+ job, they don't care what happens to those 'crusty burger flippers'. Little do they know, their little 'knowledge' jobs won't be safe for long once companies start importing more and more foreign labor in or allowing their jobs to be done in foreign via remote technology.

Yup. We can't even solve the minimum wage crisis. Wait until automation sweeps through the American workforce and displaces millions. At that point, the issue won't be paying the lower class to work, it'll be finding work for people in general. That's going to be one of the biggest issues for us in the future, and we can't even get past the basics. Healthcare, education reform, minimum wage, are all still issues that divide us. Ain't no chance that we're prepared to deal with the future yet.

Why are all the minimum wage collectivists so afraid of entertaining the idea that so many people shouldn't be dependent on minimum wage in the first place? What good is a high minimum wage when those jobs will probably be automated or outsourced anyway? Wouldn't it make more sense to try and get people out of those jobs and up to jobs with pay levels that generate "living wages"? You get those fast food workers $15 MW, then what. All those franchises come together and have machines made to automate much of the work, and much of those workers get $0/hr. You forbid franchises from letting workers go.... they become reluctant to hire, prices go up and the societal transition away from shytty fast food accelerates, making the ventures unprofitable. Then what? You forbid people to close down their businesses so MW workers don't lose their jobs? Eventually the buck has to stop somewhere. This whole "minimum wage = livable wage" mantra is very recent. MW was not livable in the 90s, 80s, 70s etc. etc so why does it have to be now? We should be looking to get back to how things were before, when the bulk of Americans were earning much more than minimum wage. Only way to do that is through education and job training.

You do know that the president in charge when the minimum wage was first implented meant for the minimum wage to be a decent living, right? That is literally the point of why it exists. If it was indexed into inflation or a cost of living solution per each state, we wouldn't have this problem. Productivity has gone way up and wages have been stagnant. Our purchasing power is weaker than its been for most people's lifetimes. It's about time to correct the issue.

Also, the automation/outsourcing argument holds no water, jobs are going to be automated or shipped out of the country anyways. Companies aren't going to keep paying people out of generosity, they will replace them because it's profitable. That's the direction the country is headed, with or without a raise in the minimum wage.

And the job training argument doesn't work anymore. Look at the context we're speaking in. Businesses don't even want to pay more than 7.75 an hour in some places, you think they want to pay to teach someone a job that will likely take more skill/focus/attention? Not everyone is in a position to get certs, go to college, or start up a business. And while we're on education, take a look at tuition prices from the mid-80s until now. And then compare that to the minimum wage.

No matter where the argument goes, it's not going to dispel the notion that we should raise what we pay workers. The only real question should be how high the number should be.

 

[Broke Wave]

Theres a wildfire burning in Washington State

@GinaThatAintNoDamnPuppy! would be like:

"i understand the plight of the people affected by the fire thats currently burning, but if we just put out the fire theres just gonna be more fires. I say we dont actually put the fire out and we focus on fire prevention."

 

[tmonster]

As a country we should look to make individuals self sustainable and have a decent quality of life.

this is a very hifalutin concept that I am having trouble wrapping my mind around
so you mean to say that a society should be concerned with its welfare
that just might work enough to be crazy

 

[88m3]

this is a very hifalutin concept that I am having trouble wrapping my mind around
so you mean to say that a society should be concerned with its welfare
that just might work enough to be crazy

Call me crazy and burn me at the stake!

 

[tmonster]

Theres a wildfire burning in Washington State

@GinaThatAintNoDamnPuppy! would be like:

"i understand the plight of the people affected by the fire thats currently burning, but if we just put out the fire theres just gonna be more fires. I say we dont actually put the fire out and we focus on fire prevention."

"besides some of these people deserve to burn and I for one don't mind watching"

 

[88m3]

Can you name a good American union? UAW, SEIU are not much better. Lol @ new UAW employees getting hit with that "tiered" pay to fund older employees unsustainable pensions. Workers need more leverage but unions demonstrate time and time again they are not the answer.

I can think of several and give you an anecdotal. My grandparents for instance were able to have private healthcare, pensions, and annuities that otherwise could have potentially ruined them if they were reliant on medicare and social security.
Workers need more protection, more power, more rights and not less. You'd think America were a third world country the standards you want to layout for it's workers. Wake up.

Also you brought up the NYPD, what do you think would have happened to our first responders if it wasn't for unions after 9/11?


A lot of pensions are underfunded because hedge funds, wall street, sec, congress and etc f'cked everyone over.

 

[Dafunkdoc_Unlimited]

Why does the guy who throws garbage cans into the back of the truck make a livable wage while the guy taking your order at a fast food restaurant can't even afford to eat there?

​

 

[TLR Is Mental Poison]

Why does the guy who throws garbage cans into the back of the truck make a livable wage while the guy taking your order at a fast food restaurant can't even afford to eat there?

​

Because he's risking his life and doing a job nobody else wants to do?

 

[TLR Is Mental Poison]

Theres a wildfire burning in Washington State

@GinaThatAintNoDamnPuppy! would be like:

"i understand the plight of the people affected by the fire thats currently burning, but if we just put out the fire theres just gonna be more fires. I say we dont actually put the fire out and we focus on fire prevention."

@Broke Wave would be like "lets melt the icecaps and put all of the US underwater.... that way we will never have any more forest fires" :scumbag:

See how stupid this game is?