Never compare Harden to D Wade ever again

[Biscayne]

Nah see, this is where people are inconsistent. If rings and big playoff games/moments are the barometer, then Klay should be over Wade. Yet most people would not accept that.

That's why you have to look at numbers, context (injuries etc.) and individual accolades when comparing individual players. Wade's rings are more than offset by Harden's MVP and 4 top 3 MVP finishes. Harden also never missed the playoffs and post-OKC he was always the primary reason for that, except maybe last season where he and Embiid probably share the credit.

I agree that Wade is an all time #2 but even there you can start to have a debate if you compare Harden's numbers this year to his. Harden can't help it that Embiid is no LeBron in the playoffs.

This is bad faith. Everyone is stuck on wade getting the chance to play with LeBron and Shaq. But harden, for a longer more consistent duration of his career has alwyas had one other hall of famer co-starring on his rosters. Harden has rarely had lull seasons which he had to go it alone like wade did in 2008, 2009, 2010. Wade spent 3 seasons on Miami carryin bad rosters. Harden had one single season in Houston where he had to do it by himself. That was the 12-13 breakout season after OKC sent him to Houston. Te the very next season they get Dwight Howard. He’s always played on rosters with players(and sometimes coaches) who maximized his skillset. After they got rid of McHale, they literally hired the MVP king-maker Dantoni. Spo is a goat coach, but he was an unproven rookie in Wades prime seasons. Harden is the rare type of player, where the longer they play the more in jeopardy their legacy might be if they keep having these annual playoff collapses.

 

[Biscayne]

Breh you keep making up this non-factor categories...

Best slasher? Wtf. Are we making movies for teenage white girls or are we trying to play efficient basketball breh? How about Wade had no three ball and therefore his ceiling in today's game would be Demar DeRozan.

Harden puts more points on the board through scoring and passing than Wade makes up for with his showboating blocks. That should really be the end of it. Wade himself will tell ya he ain't on that level.

We just witnessed Jimmy Butler for 3 out of 4 Heat seasons just absolutely shread his way through the modern eastern NBA conference despite lacking a 3-ball. Conversely, we seen James Harden lose head-to-head last year to Jimmy and lose to the team that Jimmy beat this year. Im sure wade would be just fine in todays league.

Jimmy at times looked like the best playoff performer in the NBA.

 

[Mantis Toboggan M.D.]

This is bad faith. Everyone is stuck on wade getting the chance to play with LeBron and Shaq. But harden, for a longer more consistent duration of his career has alwyas had one other hall of famer co-starring on his rosters. Harden has rarely had lull seasons which he had to go it alone like wade did in 2008, 2009, 2010. Wade spent 3 seasons on Miami carryin bad rosters. Harden had one single season in Houston where he had to do it by himself. That was the 12-13 breakout season after OKC sent him to Houston. The the very next season they get Dwight Howard. He’s always played on rosters with players(and sometimes coaches) who maximized his skillset. After they got rid of McHale, they literally hired the MVP king-maker Dantoni. Spo is a goat coach, but he was an unproven rookie in Wades prime seasons. Harden is the rare type of player, where the longer they play the more in jeopardy their legacy might be if they keep having these annual playoff collapses.

Even this understates the disparity. Wade’s team around him after that title immediately aged like milk left out in the Florida summer sun. Shaq missed half the 2006-07 season and had by far his worst year to that point and the rest of the team fell apart too. Even in regards to Spo, he really didn’t even have a good year coaching until 2012-13 and I wouldn’t say he became a good to great coach until about 2017. Up through the end of Wade’s prime he still have very little creativity on offense and was always slow to adjust to anything. If he was the coach back before Wade declined that he is now, there’d probably be 1-2 more titles.

Harden on the other hand joined a team in the draft that already had KD and Russ who also drafted Ibaka the same year they took him. I don’t think harden has ever played on a team short on talent or bitten hard by the injury bug. He’s definitely never had rapidly declining stars as his teammates either. All his teams that he’s been on seem to have stars in their prime and he still melts down because he’s got no diversity in his game. If plan A doesn’t work, he has no fallback option. No post game, no off ball cuts, no slashing to the rim anymore, and he doesn’t seem to work on his mid range game, which still matters for star players to have so as to at least keep the defense honest.

 

[inndaskKy]

Harden on the other hand joined a team in the draft that already had KD and Russ who also drafted Ibaka the same year they took him. I don’t think harden has ever played on a team short on talent or bitten hard by the injury bug. He’s definitely never had rapidly declining stars as his teammates either. All his teams that he’s been on seem to have stars in their prime and he still melts down because he’s got no diversity in his game. If plan A doesn’t work, he has no fallback option. No post game, no off ball cuts, no slashing to the rim anymore, and he doesn’t seem to work on his mid range game, which still matters for star players to have so as to at least keep the defense honest.

Talk about bad faith. Harden had the same Dwight that the last bit of healthy Kobe struggled to make the playoffs with and did nothing with. And Harden and Dwight made it to the Conference Finals at least.

The Russell Westbrook in Houston bit is totally ridiculous too. Russ was such a bad fit that the team was forced to trade Clint Capela, who was the perfect fit for Harden as a rim running lob threat and rim protector, so that Russ could have space to operate so he wouldn't look so bad. It's the only time in history that a team has experimented with microball which turned out, predictably, to be a disaster against a physical team with size like the Lakers with AD and LeBron. And they still managed to win the first game despite being completely handicapped by not having a center.

Same goes for KD+Kyrie in Brooklyn. The one series they were all healthy they dominated Tatum & Brown and Harden was arguably the best player of the series (him and KD were 1a and 1b). Then Harden got injured (KD still had two good looks to win the series but he couldn't cash in).

Same with CP3's hammy giving out. And this season with Doc refusing to let James cook even after he had shown that he could still be a dominant scorer. Doc just had to run everything through Embiid and it got them nowhere.

Don't talk to me about Wade's efficiency either. He and Bron were notorious for stat padding their percentages. Wade was especially egregious, he would pass on shots if it meant he could stay at 50% in a game. Shameless.

And we know Wade can be shameless like that from him robbing Aaron Gordon in the dunk contest to give the title to one of his teammates on the same group of players that would soon be sick of Wade and kick him off the team. He robbed Gordon to try to get the approval of people who couldn't stand him

 

[murksiderock]

Prime James Harden (2012-21)
Harden didn't have a longer prime than Wade, they both had a 9-year run as Top 10 players. Harden's prime coincides with Y1 in Houston, to Y1 in Brooklyn...

Harden was a #1 this entire 9-year stretch with the exception of maybe his first year in Brooklyn. So we'll leave it at 8 years as a #1, 2012-20, which is a significant amount if time more than Wade's 5...

In 8 years as a #1, Harden played in an average of 79 games/year. This is over 12 games more/year than Wade played when he had #1 responsibilities, and again Harden carried #1 responsibilities 3 more years...

Harden carried this burden in the tougher conference, to me, all of these characteristics have to matter. More durable, did it longer, did it in the tougher bracket, did it without a GOAT teammate...

Prime James Harden never missed the playoffs. Can't say this about a number of heralded greats, from Wade, to KG, to many others, made it every year in that West, and was a 50-game winner 6 of those 8 years, while playing 79 games/year. Houston averaged 52.4 wins/year under Harden as a #1, this is 12 more wins than Wade as a #1 provided his team...

Harden twice led his team to the WCF (0-2). Wade was only a Top 5 MVP finalist twice (2009, 2010). Harden was a 6x finalist, winning it once and a 3x runner-up. He was more impactful in his run than Wade in his. This bears me repeating what I say every time this convo comes up:

Wade is higher than Harden All-Time because Wade does have '06, and he typically played better in the playoffs; Harden typically played worse and has no championship run. I have Wade over Harden All-Time...

But I definitely think Harden is better at basketball than Wade, and Harden did more with less...

I'll be back tomorrow to attack these strawman arguments dudes quoted me about

 

[Biscayne]

Prime James Harden (2012-21)
Harden didn't have a longer prime than Wade, they both had a 9-year run as Top 10 players. Harden's prime coincides with Y1 in Houston, to Y1 in Brooklyn...

Harden was a #1 this entire 9-year stretch with the exception of maybe his first year in Brooklyn. So we'll leave it at 8 years as a #1, 2012-20, which is a significant amount if time more than Wade's 5...

In 8 years as a #1, Harden played in an average of 79 games/year. This is over 12 games more/year than Wade played when he had #1 responsibilities, and again Harden carried #1 responsibilities 3 more years...

Harden carried this burden in the tougher conference, to me, all of these characteristics have to matter. More durable, did it longer, did it in the tougher bracket, did it without a GOAT teammate...

Prime James Harden never missed the playoffs. Can't say this about a number of heralded greats, from Wade, to KG, to many others, made it every year in that West, and was a 50-game winner 6 of those 8 years, while playing 79 games/year. Houston averaged 52.4 wins/year under Harden as a #1, this is 12 more wins than Wade as a #1 provided his team...

Harden twice led his team to the WCF (0-2). Wade was only a Top 5 MVP finalist twice (2009, 2010). Harden was a 6x finalist, winning it once and a 3x runner-up. He was more impactful in his run than Wade in his. This bears me repeating what I say every time this convo comes up:

Wade is higher than Harden All-Time because Wade does have '06, and he typically played better in the playoffs; Harden typically played worse and has no championship run. I have Wade over Harden All-Time...

But I definitely think Harden is better at basketball than Wade, and Harden did more with less...

I'll be back tomorrow to attack these strawman arguments dudes quoted me about

The funny thing about the “tougher conference” argument, is that you indirectly shyt on LeBron with this argument. LeBron spent most of his years during hardens Houston prime, coasting in the east alongside wade and Bosh. Then alongside Kyrie and love. Either way, what has harden done as a number 2, in what is arguably a more wide open eastern conference than it was in Bron or Wades day? So much of Wades prime coincided with Bron, that you can’t really shyt on wade without inderextly getting bron in the cross fire. Hell, same for Kobe since Wades prime coincided with Kobe’s 2nd prime. The same arguments against wade can be said against other 2-guards that are ahead of harden. And for the 10th time, name one team harden played in besides the 12-13 rockets where harden was the only first ballet HoF on his roster? Wade has 3 Heat seasons as the lone all star. You’re conflating being the number one scoring option on a solid roster with another all star/hall of famer(Harden/Dwight Era-Harden/CP3 Era), with being THE only scoring option and THE only all star on a roster filled with roleplayers(Wade-Chalmers-Beasley era) Harden in his prime was the former, Wade in his prime post-Shaq/pre-Bron era was the latter. Those multiple 50-win and 60-win harden seasons came via playing with 2-way hall of famers like Dwight, then CP3, and having solid offensive rotational players and defensive rotational players and depth like Capela, Joe Johnson, Eric Gordon(6th man of the year), Josh Smith, etc. It doesn’t matter if harden was the number one option. We’ve seen wade do the samething in 2006 with a Shaquille ONeal who only played in 59 games. We’ve seen Wade lead his teams to 50+ wins as “the guy”. But you don’t count that because Wade had help. Yet somehow harden gets cred in-spite of playing with help.


You wanna go over Miami’s 2008, 2009 and 2010 rosters?

 

[DetroitEWarren]

The funny thing about the “tougher conference” argument, is that you indirectly shyt on LeBron with this argument. LeBron spent most of his years during hardens Houston prime, coasting in the east alongside wade and Bosh. Then alongside Kyrie and love. Either way, what has harden done as a number 2, in what is arguably a more wide open eastern conference than it was I Bron or Wades day? So much of Wades prime coincided with Bron, that you can’t really shyt on wade without inderextly getting bron in the cross fire. Hell, same for Kobe since Wades prime coincided with Kobe’s 2nd prime. The same arguments against wade can be said against Harden. And for the 10th time, name one team harden played in besides the 12-13 rockets where harden was the only first ballet HoF on his roster? Wade has 3 seasons as the only guy. You’re conflating being the number one scoring option on a solid roster with other another all star and hall of famer, with being THE only scoring option and THE only all star on a roster filled with roleplayers. Harden in his prime was the former, Wade in th post-Shaq/pre-Bron era was the latter. Those muktipke 50-win and 60-win harden seasons came via playing with 2-way hall of famers like Dwight, then CP3, and having solid offensive rotational players and defensive rotational players and depth like Capela, Joe Johnson, Eric Gordon(6th man of the year), Josh Smith, etc.

You wanna go over Miami’s 2008, 2009 and 2010 rosters?

Jamario Moon, Joel Anthony, Jamal McGlore, Carlos Arroyo, Joel being the tallest player on the team at 6'10 and skinny as fukk, ect.

Literally one of the worst teams over a 3 year period in NBA history. I don't even think a single player on those teams ever made an all star game in their whole careers.

 

[Biscayne]

Jamario Moon, Joel Anthony, Jamal McGlore, Carlos Arroyo, Joel being the tallest player on the team at 6'10 and skinny as fukk, ect.

Literally one of the worst teams over a 3 year period in NBA history. I don't even think a single player on those teams ever made an all star game in their whole careers.

The only player who did anything of note from those Heat roster after he left Miami was Shawn Marion when he won a title with Dallas. Everyone else?

Meanwhile CP3 went to his first finals in Phx two years ago playing with a 2-guard who’s more consistent in the playoffs(Booker).

 

[KGlock]

Damn ain't know there so many Wade stans on thecoli

Spoiler

Been too much disrespect put on his name that I started to feel Wade was finna be the next Bob Cousy in terms of his greatness being forgotten


I just want to reiterate obvious points such as Wade led a squad to 2 games away from the ECF in his ROOKIE YEAR.

The kid (at the time) took over the team as the primary option by season's end of the seasoned vets Lamar and Eddie Jones and we saw what he did against Baron and co in the first round.

The 2nd year, he suffered a rib injury game 5 and if not for that ailment Heat would've made the finals and I genuinely believe they beat Spurs capturing his/their 1st title in his 2nd year rather than 3rd.

06 Wade is well documented but what doesn't get talked about enough is how bro completey decimated the Pistons

As impressive as his finals was, his ECF performance gets overlooked. Wade cooked the Pistons averaging 27ppg 6 and 6 on 62 mfkin % SHOOTING. Forward to finals and Shaq was a complete shell of himself and wasn't even the 2nd leading scorer that series (Antoine was) and imo Alonzo had more impact than Shaq, especially in crunch time. Yet you'll have fools acting like Wade was playing with the same Shaq Kobe played with. Naw! Shaq's last prime year was 05.

After Wade carried Heat to the title he was widely regarded as the best player in the league in 07, a top MVP candidate averaging 30ppg 8apg 5rpg on 50% while Shaq was injured. Then he injured his shoulder and took 1.5 years to recover.


'08 he comes back and is the best player on the Olympics squad while coming off the bench/6th man. That's with prime Kobe, Lebron, deron, cp3, etc on the same squad.

The two years before lebron arrived, critics like to penalize Wade for '09 and '10. He had 4 rookies/2nd year players in the rotation, two d league dudes and a rookie coach in Spo making stupid out of time plays. Spo was no where near the maestro he is today. Despite that Wade took a far more talented Hawks squad that had iso Joe, Josh Smith, Horford, Marvin, Teague to 7 games . They weren't prime GSW but keep in mind Wade's 2nd best player was a broken back washed Jermaine oneal who was injured in game 6 and 7. Wade practically carried the Heat to 7 games with a far inferior squad and rookie coach. Folks like to compare Kobe's post shaq/pre Gasol squad to Wade's but Kobe still had Lamar Odom and Phil Jackson. Wade had fking Joel Anthony, yakuba diawara, Beasley who was a bust, Chalmers, UD, and few other 2nd year dudes that got booted out the league couple years later.

'10, he loses to the ECF Champs, but performed better than other top 2 players at the time in Kobe/Lebron by averaging 33 6 and 7 on 56% shooting. Once again no help as Jermaine Oneal averaged a pitiful 20% from the field that series and Beasley was a bust for the Heat not providing what most expected he would comin outta college.

Lebron saw Wade was that guy and joined HIM. Shaq saw Wade hit that shot over B-diddy and said his decision to be traded to Miami was solely due to Wade. Likewise with Bosh and Bron. Wade ain't run outta Miami to join stars, they came to HIM.



'11 Finals Wade averaged 27 7 and 6 on 56% vs Dallas and was the best player in the series. Had Lebron not had an all time head scratching meltdown, Wade currently has 4 titles and 2FMVPs to his name and you'd have less fools putting no defense playing, choking ass frauden over him.


That choking mofo played with KD twice, prime Westbrook twice, Cp3, Kyrie and MVP embiid yet still ringless and nothing to show for it and somehow stay got people copping pleas for him. Folk will say Wade played with Bron and Shaq and ignore Frauden playwd with 5 different all nba/MVP caliber players.

Harden is one of the only high volume stars that's production routinely decreases considerably from regular season to post season. With Wade in his prime/healthy years, it was the opposite. Even in 2012 when Wade's degenerative knees caught up to him he still dispatched PG Pacers and Boston with just Bron (Bosh injured almost all of the 2nd and ECF)

Had Wade decided not to remove his meniscus pre-NBA he's a top 10 player ever right around where Hakeem, Kobe, Dr. J are. Harden was a great scorer and facilitator but his gimmicky offense don't translate to playoff success. Dude is a loser and it's disrespectful to claim he's better than D-Wade. The fact is you give healthy Wade a formidable team and he's going far in the playoffs at worst and winning a title at best. Even post prime Wade was a game away from meeting Bron in the ECF without Bosh and Whiteside who suffered blood clots/injuries.

Harden just ain't on Wade's level and he was basically a bigger, stronger, more explosive, SMARTER Allen Iverson so he can't be worse than him Personally imo obviously Kobe had the better career but imo Wade had the 2nd best SG peak of all time but hey let the huge L.A. market/ESPN machine and Kobe stans tell it different idgaf

 

[LurkGod]

Harden disappears in the offs, for that reason alone he can’t be on Wade level

 

[Blurneed]

Harden was going off in Houston in his prime no doubt. A lot of it had to do with the foul draw bullshyt tho. shyt was a legit eye sore. Convenient how when the rules changed a few years ago he instantly became a shell of himself.

Wade is just better than that nikka

 

[murksiderock]

Have Westbrook X 2, Durant X 2, Chris Paul
Dwight Howard, Kyrie, Joel Embid and solid role players as your teammates……


And only make the finals once




That cape y’all got must be too tight around y’all neck, not enough blood flowing to the brain got y’all thinking in delusions.

In his prime he had one year of Westbrook (End of Westbrook's prime), one year of post-prime Durant (he only played 35 games), two years of end-of-prime Paul, post-prime Dwight...

The only guys he got to play with at their apex was Kyrie and that was only a season and he half-assed it, and Embiid...

Should i list the guys Durant and Paul got to roll out there with?

Prime Harden never made a Finals but was a more dominant player than Prime Wade and that reflected in how his team won (52.4 wins/year to 40.2 wins/year for Wade as #1s) and annual MVP contention...

Harden would have rings if he got to play with the GOAT and another GOAT10 player. Wade as a #1 was literally a fringe playoff guy, you wouldnt want this guy leading your team. His entire legacy is built from who he played with, you take those Bron and Shaq years away and you have Wade's true ceiling. Its amazing muhfukkas willfully overlook this shyt ...

This is 1000% false. Ill take 08-11 version of wade over any iteration of James Harden.

You and & Touch me Teague me must be snorting that Tommy Dahlia

Peak Wade (2008-13) played most of his peak as a #2. Peak Harden (2016-21) was a #1 every year except "maybe" '21, the year he was the leading MVP candidate in Brooklyn before pulling his hammy...

So again to whittle it down apples-to-apples, Peak Wade as a #1 was 2 years, 2008-10...

Led Miami to 45 wins/year, while playing 78 games/year, and two Rd1 outs. He was a Top 5 MVP guy at his peak, his counting stats go 28.4/4.9/7/2/1.2 on 484/309/763...

114 ORtg, 104 DRtg, 29.2 PER on .568 TS. In the postseason his counting stats go;

30.8/5.3/5.9/1.2/1.6 on 491/379/786; 113 ORtg/105 DRtg; 27.6 PER on .60% TS...

Peak Wade was a dominant player, but you couldn't win with him as your best player. Not just win a title. You couldn’t win 50 games in the weaker conference with the apex version of Dwyane Wade. You couldn't win ONE playoff series with the apex version of Dwyane Wade...

Is there a player in league history where the results of his career are more stark, from when he played with GOAT players, to when he didn't? I have no idea why yall let this shyt skate...

Peak Harden as a #1, 2016-20:

Led Houston to 55.8 wins/year, playing 77 games/year, made a WCF and won 5 playoff series. Counting stats in the regular season;

32.4/6.7/8.8/1.8/0.7 on 443/360/863 shooting; 119 ORtg, 107 DRtg; 29.2 PER on .618 TS...

Postseason, 29.5/5.7/7.3/2/0.7 on 426/315/864; 113 ORtg, 106 DRtg; 25.2 PER on 57.8% TS...

The numbers underscore what we already know, that Harden's performance dipped in the playoffs while Wade's increased, and they show that Harden was a significantly greater offensive engine in the regular season. We know this already...

What the numbers don't account for are quality of team and quality of opponent. One of Wade's playoff L's were to the Hawks. 3 of Harden's 4 playoff L's were to the eventual champion, and these are the series he struggled the most in...

The main play for Wade Stans is "he didn't have great teams" post-Shaq, pre-Bron, like damn was this nikka supposed to have Super Teams his entire career? the '17 and '20 Rockets were not some great squads and Harden still won a playoff series in the tougher conference with them, still won 50 games in the tougher conference with them...

Lol

Harden in the finals(3rd year)
16ppg, 5rpg, 3apg 43% shooting. Team lost

Wade in finals(3rd year)
35ppg, 8rpg, 4apg 46% shooting. Finals mvp

There’s levels

Harden was pre-prime in 2012, it isn't really important to his legacy...

 

[murksiderock]

At the end of the day, the same logic that ppl use, to but Harden over Wade(the all time regular season offensive counting stats) can be used to put harden over Kobe and on the level of Michale Jordan in the all time Shooting Guard list. But none of y’all(Teague included) would dare tread those waters, because y’all know better.

I don't know whose logic you're lying about here, but it ain't mine...

I saw Kobe win not one, but two, championships without a GOAT next to him. There's no argument for Harden over Kobe, let alone Mike...

This keeps getting lost in translation, I don't have Harden over Wade All-Time. Wade has a title as a #1 and routinely picked up his performance in the playoffs. He's higher than Harden on the All-Time boards...

But I do believe Harden is better at basketball, just a more rounded offensive threat scoring and distributing and controlling a game. And I watched Harden never miss a postseason in the tougher conference and advance, meaning win a series, most of his prime...

Dwyane Wade played most of his prime with Bron and Shaq and when those guys were not there he was either hurt because #1 load was too much for him, missing the playoffs, or failing to win a series. In the weaker conference. He was a dominant offensive force in his own right, but not good enough to win and that matters to me...

Most of his playoff legacy is tied to what he did when Shaq and Bron were there. That isn't good enough for me. What he did when those guys weren't there was his ceiling if he was The Guy, and it wasn't nearly enough considering the conference he was in at that time...

I do find it funny how people discredit Dwayne Wade. He's definitely a top 5 SG in NBA history and maybe even top 3 but it seems like people have a problem putting him in the top 3 SG's of all time behind Jordan and Kobe but will gas and happily accept Harden and IMO a slightly overrated/over-exaggerated Allen Iverson as being better than Wade in the rankings.

On the surface, fans tend to rank Harden over Wade due to his scoring averages, 3pt shooting, and his lone MVP season. Others pick Iverson over Wade because of nostalgia and his flashy highlight reels, kinda reminds me of people ranking Tracy McGrady soo high because of the same similar reasons.

I've even heard people say Jerry West is better than Wade despite being 1-9 in the finals .

If rings and overall career success is the barometer for being ranked accordingly then Wade is top 3 among SG's but people seem to have a problem (irritated rather) hearing him ranked behind MJ and Kobe as if Wade being 3rd best takes the glamour off of them.

It's funny how the barometer for being ranked changes so much from player to player with MJ and Kobe they're ranked #1 and #2 as the greatest SG's and a lot of that is strictly based on their rings. It shouldn't matter who were their teammates...I'm a Laker girl through and through but only two of the 5 rings Kobe has you can legitimately say he won on his own terms as Shaq was THE guy during the 3-Peat and Kobe likely wouldn't have 5 without him.

West was definitely a better basketball player than Wade, and is much higher All-Time. West was a point guard, though...

Kobe absolutely wouldn't have 5 rings without the Shaq years, he played 12 years post-Shaq and got 2 rings, this is easy math. He's overrated slightly but that's a separate convo, in no world is he an inferior baller to Wade...

Iverson is also slightly overrated but Wade was better...

2011 finals???? Am I readin this shyt right????

The finals where he had 27/7/5/2/2 on 55% and was best player on the floor most series

Where he has 32/6/2/2/2 in game 4 on 65% but lost by 3 points because Lebron put up 8 points and was outscored by half Mavs roster

When Wade wouldve won his 2nd FMVP and never be compared to a chokin playoff droppin no defense playin nikka like Har_en if not for one of the biggest chokejobs and atrocities in sports history by Lebron James

Wade would have an extra ring and extra FMVP if he was The Guy yall say he is, that series was there for the taking. Do NOT make me post what he was doing down the stretch of those games 4-6, we have video and stats in case you don't remember the series fron real time...

Wade was not That Guy. He steps up and takes that series if he was...

 

[Biscayne]

In his prime he had one year of Westbrook (End of Westbrook's prime), one year of post-prime Durant (he only played 35 games), two years of end-of-prime Paul, post-prime Dwight...

The only guys he got to play with at their apex was Kyrie and that was only a season and he half-assed it, and Embiid...

Should i list the guys Durant and Paul got to roll out there with?

Prime Harden never made a Finals but was a more dominant player than Prime Wade and that reflected in how his team won (52.4 wins/year to 40.2 wins/year for Wade as #1s) and annual MVP contention...

Harden would have rings if he got to play with the GOAT and another GOAT10 player. Wade as a #1 was literally a fringe playoff guy, you wouldnt want this guy leading your team. His entire legacy is built from who he played with, you take those Bron and Shaq years away and you have Wade's true ceiling. Its amazing muhfukkas willfully overlook this shyt ...

Peak Wade (2008-13) played most of his peak as a #2. Peak Harden (2016-21) was a #1 every year except "maybe" '21, the year he was the leading MVP candidate in Brooklyn before pulling his hammy...

So again to whittle it down apples-to-apples, Peak Wade as a #1 was 2 years, 2008-10...

Led Miami to 45 wins/year, while playing 78 games/year, and two Rd1 outs. He was a Top 5 MVP guy at his peak, his counting stats go 28.4/4.9/7/2/1.2 on 484/309/763...

114 ORtg, 104 DRtg, 29.2 PER on .568 TS. In the postseason his counting stats go;

30.8/5.3/5.9/1.2/1.6 on 491/379/786; 113 ORtg/105 DRtg; 27.6 PER on .60% TS...

Peak Wade was a dominant player, but you couldn't win with him as your best player. Not just win a title. You couldn’t win 50 games in the weaker conference with the apex version of Dwyane Wade. You couldn't win ONE playoff series with the apex version of Dwyane Wade...

Is there a player in league history where the results of his career are more stark, from when he played with GOAT players, to when he didn't? I have no idea why yall let this shyt skate...

Peak Harden as a #1, 2016-20:

Led Houston to 55.8 wins/year, playing 77 games/year, made a WCF and won 5 playoff series. Counting stats in the regular season;

32.4/6.7/8.8/1.8/0.7 on 443/360/863 shooting; 119 ORtg, 107 DRtg; 29.2 PER on .618 TS...

Postseason, 29.5/5.7/7.3/2/0.7 on 426/315/864; 113 ORtg, 106 DRtg; 25.2 PER on 57.8% TS...

The numbers underscore what we already know, that Harden's performance dipped in the playoffs while Wade's increased, and they show that Harden was a significantly greater offensive engine in the regular season. We know this already...

What the numbers don't account for are quality of team and quality of opponent. One of Wade's playoff L's were to the Hawks. 3 of Harden's 4 playoff L's were to the eventual champion, and these are the series he struggled the most in...

The main play for Wade Stans is "he didn't have great teams" post-Shaq, pre-Bron, like damn was this nikka supposed to have Super Teams his entire career? the '17 and '20 Rockets were not some great squads and Harden still won a playoff series in the tougher conference with them, still won 50 games in the tougher conference with them...

Harden was pre-prime in 2012, it isn't really important to his legacy...

I don't know whose logic you're lying about here, but it ain't mine...

I saw Kobe win not one, but two, championships without a GOAT next to him. There's no argument for Harden over Kobe, let alone Mike...

This keeps getting lost in translation, I don't have Harden over Wade All-Time. Wade has a title as a #1 and routinely picked up his performance in the playoffs. He's higher than Harden on the All-Time boards...

But I do believe Harden is better at basketball, just a more rounded offensive threat scoring and distributing and controlling a game. And I watched Harden never miss a postseason in the tougher conference and advance, meaning win a series, most of his prime...

Dwyane Wade played most of his prime with Bron and Shaq and when those guys were not there he was either hurt because #1 load was too much for him, missing the playoffs, or failing to win a series. In the weaker conference. He was a dominant offensive force in his own right, but not good enough to win and that matters to me...

Most of his playoff legacy is tied to what he did when Shaq and Bron were there. That isn't good enough for me. What he did when those guys weren't there was his ceiling if he was The Guy, and it wasn't nearly enough considering the conference he was in at that time...

West was definitely a better basketball player than Wade, and is much higher All-Time. West was a point guard, though...

Kobe absolutely wouldn't have 5 rings without the Shaq years, he played 12 years post-Shaq and got 2 rings, this is easy math. He's overrated slightly but that's a separate convo, in no world is he an inferior baller to Wade...

Iverson is also slightly overrated but Wade was better...

Wade would have an extra ring and extra FMVP if he was The Guy yall say he is, that series was there for the taking. Do NOT make me post what he was doing down the stretch of those games 4-6, we have video and stats in case you don't remember the series fron real time...

Wade was not That Guy. He steps up and takes that series if he was...

You keep running with this “Goat-level player” schtick like it isn’t easily refutable. Again, nobody said Wade needed superteams to win, we(meaning anybody with eyes) can look at those post-Shaq/pre-bron teams and see that those were below league average rosters and supporting casts. Furthermore, Shaq only played in 59 regular season games the year Miami won the title. Those were good(not all time great, and not super team) Heat teams that Wade LED, as the NUMBER-1 option to 50+ wins and a title. You’re being disingenuous by insisting Wade needed a “super team” to win 50+ games and a title.

You’re using the two years that Wade played with below league average rosters, and trying to use it as a “Gotcha” vs Hardens multiple 50-win seasons. But nobody in this thread is falling for it, because once again, anyone who was round back then and had eyes, saw that Harden CONSTANTLY(keyword) had running mates who were at worst all-nba/all-star talent, and at best future Naismith hall of fame inductees. You’re not fooling anyone. You really believe prime Wade and prime Dwight Howard on one team wouldn’t have been able to beat baby dame and LaMarcus Aldridge in the first round? You really believe prime harden is gonna take Past his prime Jermaine O’Neal, Chalmers, and Michael Beasley to the ECF? Who gonna play defense on the perimeter?

“3 of hardens losses came the eventual champions” go figure, one of Wades first round exits came to the team that pushed Kobe to 7 in the finals. Again, harden has a first round exit to a Portland team that had the same record as they did, and did so with a Dwight Howard playing amazing.
Nobody is falling for this breh…you can use as many perfectly crafted narratives as you want. “Wade only won when he wasn’t the pan ultimate number 1 option, between May and December of 2005 and 2006, and Shaq was a goat player who’s body frame still-yaddi-yadda-yadda” we’ve seen both Wade and Harden with adequate help in the playoffs, and only one player won a title. 2 conference finals and a title. We seen a past his prime wade take Miami to the ECSF and one game from an ECF. Again, when Wade had league average or above league average surrounding talent, he took them deep into the playoffs. Of course you’re gonna say “he’s only beaten the perennially bad hornets franchise”. They had the same record as Miami tho…

 

[The Connoisseurs]

A wise men told me don’t argue with fools….