Spin: Introduction to Socialism

[BaggerofTea]

I'm not sure that comparison works, but I'm not trying to derail the thread or get into a pointless back and forth.

I just feel like, outside of neolithic societies, there's few examples of socialism actually working. Marx called the first European socialists utopian, and I tend to think the same of socialism in general. I think it's hard to get past the reality that there's a basic human instinct to promote self interest. Every society needs a power structure, every societal power structure is human, and is therefor subject to corruption and tyranny.

I know, I know...Sweden. To be fair, the book is still unwritten on Nordic socialism; not enough time has passed to use that example to disprove the countless times where socialism has failed.

Like all things, compromise seems to be the best bet. In that sense I agree with a lot of Social Democratic ideas. But technically Marxists view Social Democrats as collaborators with the oppressors, and, therefore, the enemy. I feel like that point gets lost on most neo-Marxists.

There has never been anything close to a socialist society or economy run in the world.

People have used Marxism to wage revolutions but there is always this twisted ideology of massive centralization of industries which goes right against Marx's concept of redistribution.

The best way achieve socialism in a capitalist construct (without a violent revolution) is the socializing of corporations internally and the means of production in totality.

 

[Shogun]

There has never been anything close to a socialist society or economy run in the world.

Agreed, that's why I said I still see it as a utopian theory.

 

[Shogun]

The Bolsheviks broke down and simplified the message of revolution

Propaganda is whats killing us, in many different forms.

Remember the bourgeois purpose is to ensure that the working class does not unite across racial, sex, sexual orientation and other surface levels identifiers.

Both sides the same coin (Republican and Democrat) have used those "isms" to fragment society. Republicans, the original capitalists overlords have for nearly 2 centuries used racism as a form of hatred to keep poor and middle class whites from looking at their black counterparts as equals. The Democrats, originally social liberals, saw an advantage to this hatred and began to cultivate fear as a mechanism of keeping working class minorities and liberal minded whites from looking at class struggle.

Both of these entities desire greatly to keep "isms" alive

Liberals are the original capitalist overlords.

 

[TLR Is Mental Poison]

The best way achieve socialism in a capitalist construct (without a violent revolution) is the socializing of corporations internally and the means of production in totality.

Can you expand on this? More specifically the socializing of the "means of production in totality"

 

[☑︎#VoteDemocrat]

There has never been anything close to a socialist society or economy run in the world.

People have used Marxism to wage revolutions but there is always this twisted ideology of massive centralization of industries which goes right against Marx's concept of redistribution.

The best way achieve socialism in a capitalist construct (without a violent revolution) is the socializing of corporations internally and the means of production in totality.

This is precisely why debating you all is so fukking stupid. You always say this dumb shyt and then run and hide your hand when confronted

 

[BaggerofTea]

Liberals are the original capitalist overlords.

True, Conservatism-Classical Liberalism

 

[BaggerofTea]

Can you expand on this? More specifically the socializing of the "means of production in totality"

Redistributing the means of production to the people

 

[BaggerofTea]

This is precisely why debating you all is so fukking stupid. You always say this dumb shyt and then run and hide your hand when confronted

You are a surface level thinker. You see a bunch of worlds come together and for a sentence and that is your final conclusion

You'd rather not look deeper into the Hows, Whys, Whats etc etc.

Cuba had an excellent chance of being a functioning socialist society but the US would have rather had their old fascist buddy, Batista so they launched in embargo against Cuba that stifled the economic growth to a halt.

The social democratic Scandinavian nations do rather well for themselves.

Despite the USSR being an authoritarian regime they had a decent standard of living for a decade or two

Typical right wing surface level thinker

 

[TLR Is Mental Poison]

Redistributing the means of production to the people

This is not at all an expansion breh

Why should the means, which were paid for fair and square, be taken and given to someone else? Why does private property have to work that way, but personal property doesn't?

If I buy a sewing machine and sew myself, I get to keep it. But if I buy a sewing machine and hire somebody else to sew, I have to give them the sewing machine? I don't see how that makes sense.

 

[BaggerofTea]

This is not at all an expansion breh

Why should the means, which were paid for fair and square, be taken and given to someone else? Why does private property have to work that way, but personal property doesn't?

If I buy a sewing machine and sew myself, I get to keep it. But if I buy a sewing machine and hire somebody else to sew, I have to give them the sewing machine? I don't see how that makes sense.

Redistribution doesn't necessarily mean "physical" redistribution

Its means that the worker has a fair and equitable stake in the profits of your company

 

[☑︎#VoteDemocrat]

You are a surface level thinker. You see a bunch of worlds come together and for a sentence and that is your final conclusion

You'd rather not look deeper into the Hows, Whys, Whats etc etc.

Cuba had an excellent chance of being a functioning socialist society but the US would have rather had their old fascist buddy, Batista so they launched in embargo against Cuba that stifled the economic growth to a halt.

The social democratic Scandinavian nations do rather well for themselves.

Despite the USSR being an authoritarian regime they had a decent standard of living for a decade or two

Typical right wing surface level thinker

The nordic countries have faced crippling stagnation in growth. You all keep ignoring this.

 

[☑︎#VoteDemocrat]

Redistribution doesn't necessarily mean "physical" redistribution

Its means that the worker has a fair and equitable stake in the profits of your company

Sorry bro. Just because you lift boxes doesn't mean you get the same compensation as someone who builds the networks that facilitate information exchange or create strategic visions

 

[BaggerofTea]

Sorry bro. Just because you lift boxes doesn't mean you get the same compensation as someone who builds the networks that facilitate information exchange or create strategic visions

Without the lifting the boxes the fulfillment of visions and facilitating of information exchange are just words on a piece of paper

 

[TLR Is Mental Poison]

Redistribution doesn't necessarily mean "physical" redistribution

Its means that the worker has a fair and equitable stake in the profits of your company

This is really, seemingly intentionally vague. I agree that a higher ownership stake for employees is mutually beneficial but who should get to decide what exactly is or isn't fair? From what I have seen socialists want to completely block the owners from the negotiating table.

 

[BaggerofTea]

The nordic countries have faced crippling stagnation in growth. You all keep ignoring this.

There stagnation in growth in recent years has been due to the refugee crisis that America engineered through facilitating the Arab Spring and the Iraq War invasion.