The case against Bernie Sanders

Julius Skrrvin

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Like Ive said before about redistributionists, goal one is to destroy the capitalist class and dole out their power and assets as redistributionists deem fit. Any avenue towards that forms the veneer of their ideology. If fighting terrorism were a way to attack the rich Bernie Sanders would be a war hawk. His motivation has nothing to do with helping the middle class. We are just the pawns being used to his end goal.

Thankfully his path has some tangential benefits for us. ACA was good but I think expanding Medicare would be better. Justice system needs big reform. Etc. He knows the right things to say and has latched on to some legitimate populist ideals. But his main motivation is the redistribution of capital and power.... more specifically, the confiscation of that capital and power from the capitalist class. It's transparent as fukk and I'm tired of people hiding behind his narrative of populist shame to help further that agenda.

Sanders wants to shatter the bourgeoisie and is using the presidential race as a proxy for a comrade takeover, huh? :pachaha:

:sas2:

a true commie believes in a stateless, classless society. Bernie's campaign is a patriotic one. Economic protectionism for Americans (read: at the cost of others) is one of the major foci of his campaign. No need to pearl clutch for billionaires, Bernie doesn't even believe in free trade and by association, reducing global inequalities/poverty.
 

Brown_Pride

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...if you're going into the argument accusing Sanders (or anyone) of being a "redistributionist" then the argument is too loaded to take seriously to be honest. The term is meaningless since every politician wants to redistribute wealth and resources in some way or other, in fact it's part of what a government does. The idea of an income tax (or taxationin general) is in and of itself a redistributionist system.

So that term means nothing. Only difference between politicians is how they'd like to see things redistributed.
capitalism is, at its core, all about redistribution. To win at capitalism the goal is to take have all the money, it's the same goal as in monopoly. The only way to have all the money is to redistribute money from people into your hands. As I can see it, Bernie simply wants to shift the direction that money has been flowing...and I can get behind that.
 

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I was talking about a specific brand of redistributionist but I will accept the L on this one for not being more clear from the jump :francis:

If he gets the nomination I am voting for him anyway which is all that matters in the end. But I laid out my gripes with him before. Sadly he is the best of the bunch IMO, but Im still not enthusiastic about him. W/e.
 

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Like Ive said before about redistributionists, goal one is to destroy the capitalist class and dole out their power and assets as redistributionists deem fit. Any avenue towards that forms the veneer of their ideology. If fighting terrorism were a way to attack the rich Bernie Sanders would be a war hawk. His motivation has nothing to do with helping the middle class. We are just the pawns being used to his end goal.

Thankfully his path has some tangential benefits for us. ACA was good but I think expanding Medicare would be better. Justice system needs big reform. Etc. He knows the right things to say and has latched on to some legitimate populist ideals. But his main motivation is the redistribution of capital and power.... more specifically, the confiscation of that capital and power from the capitalist class. It's transparent as fukk and I'm tired of people hiding behind his narrative of populist shame to help further that agenda.

:comeon:

You are usually such a rational poster until it comes to Bernie Sanders.
 

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I think Sanders' primary motivation is creating what he believes are better living conditions for the majority of the the middle class and poor (whether you agree or disagree with his methods), not destroying the capitalist class and seizing their power.
Serious question.

What could be "better" for the middle class?
 

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Sanders doesn't even have an issue with capitalism, as evidenced by him not saying anything about the exploitation of labor and the ruling class' control of the means of production... so he certainly has no desire to see the destruction of the capitalist class or smashing their power :pachaha:
Bernie doesn't quote Marx in his most extreme interpretation and you take that as a mark against him? :mjlol: :wow:

HL man :whew:
 

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...if you're going into the argument accusing Sanders (or anyone) of being a "redistributionist" then the argument is too loaded to take seriously to be honest. The term is meaningless since every politician wants to redistribute wealth and resources in some way or other, in fact it's part of what a government does. The idea of an income tax (or taxationin general) is in and of itself a redistributionist system.

So that term means nothing. Only difference between politicians is how they'd like to see things redistributed.
You're being a little obtuse here and @GinaThatAintNoDamnPuppy! was pretty clear about what he said.
 

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capitalism is, at its core, all about redistribution. To win at capitalism the goal is to take have all the money, it's the same goal as in monopoly. The only way to have all the money is to redistribute money from people into your hands. As I can see it, Bernie simply wants to shift the direction that money has been flowing...and I can get behind that.
The USA is the poster child for economic success. Hands down.

So talking about "redistribution" worries me because in a nation that has strived on letting people do what they want, why does he keep making it sound like people who have followed the law, done the right thing, and still made money deserve to lose money to a few hands who have bended rules to do so? Bernie lacks that nuance, and frankly its unsettling.
 

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The USA is the poster child for economic success. Hands down.

So talking about "redistribution" worries me because in a nation that has strived on letting people do what they want, why does he keep making it sound like people who have followed the law, done the right thing, and still made money deserve to lose money to a few hands who have bended rules to do so? Bernie lacks that nuance, and frankly its unsettling.

bgproductivityandcompensationchart3825.ashx


This chart says it all.

And because the wealthy can afford to lobby for their interests, we should support those who support our interests as well.

I know you like sucking off the powerful and maintaining the status quo so I'm not surprised Bernie is unsettling for you.
 

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i was writing up a big response to this post but once i saw the moron who wrote it i stopped :mjlol:

i did go to see if any other journalists had responded to this non sense :sas1:

In New York magazine this week, Jonathan Chait attempts to make “The Case Against Bernie Sanders.” Allow us to un-make it.

Let’s take Chait’s main points one by one:

  • Sanders doesn’t give the Affordable Care Act enough credit. Bernie Sanders advocates universal, single-payer government health care. To be clear, everyone who believes in health care as a human right knows that universal government health care is the system that we need. Even Hillary Clinton! The Affordable Care Act was one step down the road towards universal health care. Sanders advocates at least aiming to travel the whole road; Hillary Clinton’s position is not only that universal health care is impossible, but that a candidate in the Democratic primary should be attacked for supporting universal health care. This is the state of our Democratic Party in 2016.
  • We don’t need to break up Wall Street Banks. Bernie Sanders argues for breaking up “too big to fail” financial institutions to reduce systemic risk and prevent the need for another taxpayer bailout down the road. Chait argues that the existing provisions of the Dodd-Frank Act “may not have broken up the big banks, but they have, at the very least, deeply reduced systemic risk,” due in large part to new capital requirements that are causing some large institutions to, in effect, break themselves up to avoid certain regulations. In other words, Chait is trumpeting the incidental breakup of large, dangerous institutions due to a weaker set of regulations while arguing against the purposeful breakup of large, dangerous institutions as a result of stronger regulations. This is nonsense.
  • Economic inequality is not as bad as Sanders says. Chait argues that Bernie’s proposals to help the middle and lower classes and attack inequality are more or less unnecessary, because the post-recession economic recovery is doing the job well enough already. Unemployment is down and we are no longer mired in the worse economic crisis of a half-century, it’s true. But when Chait writes “the conclusion that Obama’s policies have failed to raise living standards for average people is premature. And the progress under Obama refutes Sanders’s corollary point, that meaningful change is impossible without a revolutionary transformation that eliminates corporate power,” what is he talking about? Has anyone outside of the Republican party actually argued that “Obama’s policies have failed to raise living standards for average people?” To the extent that you give any credit to Obama’s policies (rather than, say, the Fed) for the economic recovery, it is a simple and measurable matter to say that, yes, average people are doing better than they were in 2008, when we had just been hit with a global catastrophe. Big deal. Chait’s second sentence is also bizarre—are we to believe that the fact that quantitative easing and Keynesian economic assistance to the broad economy has, predictably, helped unemployment should somehow lead us to the conclusion that, uh, unstated progressive Obama policies were responsible for it and also disprove the assertion that corporations have too much political power? It is a non-sequitur based on a false premise. I have not heard any American politician argue that we need to “eliminate” corporate power, which would be impossible in a system of American capitalism (again, what does that even mean? Assassinate all CEOs?). Bernie Sanders quite reasonably wants to fix our campaign finance system to reign in the influence of corporations on politics, because that corporate influence naturally prevents political reforms that might benefit workers at the expense of corporations, because corporations are machines built for the sole purpose of making profits. If Chait would stop mischaracterizing Sanders’ positions, he might be forced to admit they make sense.
  • Sanders’ support for a $15 an hour minimum wage would cost jobs.The truth is that nobody really knows what a $15 an hour minimum wage would do to employment, and it is also a moot point, because the federal minimum wage, which currently stands at $7.25 per hour, will not be more than doubled by this Congress. More likely, state and local minimum wages will begin to rise up to the $15 per hour point, as they already have in several areas, and those areas will be viewed as test cases by economists. The significance of a president supporting a $15 minimum wage, as Bernie does, rather than a lower one, as Hillary Clinton does, is that by supporting a lower wage you concede ground to opponents before the negotiations even begin, and in all likelihood end up with a lower final number. Supporting a $15 an hour minimum wage sets that as the bar from which opponents need to pull you down. (The theme of conceding ground to opponents before they ask for it instead of espousing beliefs that you actually believe is a key one in Chait’s support of Hillary Clinton.)
  • Sanders is a socialist, and socialists can’t get elected. A self-fulfilling prophecy that has the effect of barring any progressive honest enough to accurately describe their political beliefs from running for president. Here we have a journalist arguing in favor of focus group-inspired dishonest political rhetoric, rather than honesty. Bernie Sanders polls better than Hillary Clinton in head to head matchups with the Republican candidates, which one would hope would end this line of attack once and for all. As in the case of universal health care “socialism” as advocated by Bernie Sanders consists mostly of ideals that Democrats believe in, but which Democrats like Jonathan Chait assume are impossible to achieve.
  • Sanders’ policy proposals will be impossible to enact with a Republican Congress. Here we get to the heart of why Chait and the many Democrats who view themselves as prudent support Hillary Clinton. The portray Bernie Sanders and his supporters as unrealistic—sure, we’d all like to vote for the candidate who advocates the ideals that we believe in, but of course he could never get elected, and even if he did, he could never pass anything, so we might as well support the more centrist candidate. This presupposes that our Republican Congress is more likely to support the proposals of Hillary Clinton—which is false! Republicans hate Hillary Clinton more than they hate almost anyone in this world. Our “prudent Democrats” are willing to tone down their own ideals to support a candidate that is less liberal on the insane supposition that this will somehow win comity from a Republican Party that despises the centrist candidate even more than they despise the socialist candidate. The Republican Congress did not work with President Obama, a centrist Democrat; they will not work with the next Democrat in the White House either, regardless of who it is. As for what the next president will be able to accomplish without Congressional support, Chait says “The president retains full command of foreign affairs; can use executive authority to drive social policy change in areas like criminal justice and gender; and can, at least in theory, staff the judiciary.” And so even if you buy the defeatist-masquerading-as-realist attitude that Democrats must give up on progressive ideals in order to maintain power, you simply narrow the question to: Do you like Hillary Clinton’s or Bernie Sanders’ positions on foreign policy and social justice and the judiciary better? Reasonable Democrats can certainly disagree on these issues, but that is a far different discussion than the one that Chait was trying to advance in his piece.
Which is a long way of saying: vote for the candidate whose positions you actually agree with. That’s what primary elections are fukking for.
the only thing i agree with chait on is that if sanders does get eleceted it's going to be hard as hell for him to get through meaningful reforms without the help of people on the ground :patrice:

but i do want to respond to this:

But Obama did organize passionate volunteers on a massive scale — far broader than anything Sanders has done — and tried to keep his volunteers engaged throughout his presidency. Why would Sanders’s grassroots campaign succeed where Obama’s far larger one failed?
the issue with obama's volunteers is that they needed OBAMA to keep them engaged when it should've been the VOLUNTEERS keeping OBAMA engaged on their issues. :camby:

the # of supports is not as important as making sure they're well informed and keep up sustained efforts throughout the presidency instead of sittin at home complaining :dame:
 
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BaggerofTea

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I see rich folks are getting nervous about Sanders, so here comes the hit pieces.

1. Bernie Sanders barely qualifies for a Socialist.

2. What it really comes down to for Bernie is more equal playing field for all Americans. Less money in politics, healthcare and quality education for all Americans, the wealthy paying their fair share in taxes......

This redistribution nonsense that is being pimped by right wing lackeys is hot term just like "socialist" and "commies"

Gets low information voters afraid.
 
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BaggerofTea

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Keep in mind, most wealthy individuals are fiscal conservatives with liberal social views.

First Hillary to a T
 

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bgproductivityandcompensationchart3825.ashx


This chart says it all.

And because the wealthy can afford to lobby for their interests, we should support those who support our interests as well.

I know you like sucking off the powerful and maintaining the status quo so I'm not surprised Bernie is unsettling for you.
why would wages go up with productivity?
 
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