We are living in a world of illusion

DoubleClutch

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It astonishes me that anyone can think that, with our reputation for logical and analytical thinking, we would oppose such ideas so vehemently if they were in any way supported by the Tanach.

how could anyone believe what?

the Jesus being sinless part?

millions of Muslims believe it and they don’t even need to considering they have Muhammad and their own way to Gods “mercy”.

The only people on earth that can read the gospels and conclude Jesus was a “bad man” (regardless if he’s son of God/God in flesh or not) are religious Jewish people today



5:42 Says Jesus is a “heretic” :manny:

But at least he’s not as bad as they see Paul :banderas:

Do you consider Paul as a more instrumental figure in the creation of “Christianity”?

are Christians today more followers of Paul than Jesus to you?
 

Koichos

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K'lal Yisraʾel
both the Talmud and the Quran mention Jesus
Wrong. The individual whose NAME was used for the half-human, half-divine hybrid man-god you worship lived in the time of the Hashmonoʾim (in the second half of the Second Century BCE) but there is not a lot else about him that bears much resemblance to Yushke. It is clear from the context in both of the principal passages that this 'Yeshu' lived much too early to have been your 'Yeshu'—on daf mem-gimmal ʿammud ʾalaf of Tractate Sanhadrin it is recorded that he was executed (by s'qiloh 'stoning', and not by crucifixion) by order of the Synhedrion, which could not have happened during the Roman occupation because the Romans denied the Jewish courts jurisdiction in capital cases (b. Sabb. טו,א; b. ʿAvod. Zar. ח,ב); and on daf quf-zayin ʿammud ʾalaf he is said to have been a contemporary of the Hashmonaʾi king Alexander Yannai (reigned 102-76 BCE) and a talmid of R' Y'hoshuʿa ban P'rahyoh. This was more than a century before the Roman prefect Pontius Pilatus during the early years of Shimʿon ban Shatah (who enacted compulsory Jewish education).
The two Talmudim contain a number of references to numerous different men called 'Yeshu', the Judaean diminutive of Y'hoshuʿa (a common name in ancient Yisroʾel, supplanting the earlier Babylonian form Yeshuʿa), but the details are completely at odds with Yushke.
 

MMS

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Wrong. The individual whose NAME was used for the half-human, half-divine hybrid man-god you worship lived in the time of the Hashmonoʾim (in the second half of the Second Century BCE) but there is not a lot else about him that bears much resemblance to Yushke. It is clear from the context in both of the principal passages that this 'Yeshu' lived much too early to have been your 'Yeshu'—on daf mem-gimmal ʿammud ʾalaf of Tractate Sanhadrin it is recorded that he was executed (by s'qiloh 'stoning', and not by crucifixion) by order of the Synhedrion, which could not have happened during the Roman occupation because the Romans denied the Jewish courts jurisdiction in capital cases (b. Sabb. טו,א; b. ʿAvod. Zar. ח,ב); and on daf quf-zayin ʿammud ʾalaf he is said to have been a contemporary of the Hashmonaʾi king Alexander Yannai (reigned 102-76 BCE) and a talmid of R' Y'hoshuʿa ban P'rahyoh. This was more than a century before the Roman prefect Pontius Pilatus during the early years of Shimʿon ban Shatah (who enacted compulsory Jewish education).
The two Talmudim contain a number of references to numerous different men called 'Yeshu', the Judaean diminutive of Y'hoshuʿa (a common name in ancient Yisroʾel, supplanting the earlier Babylonian form Yeshuʿa), but the details are completely at odds with Yushke.
truly its a mystery :smugfavre:

Why did Aaron form the Golden Calf from the Gold the Hebrews kept :jbhmm::jbhmm::jbhmm:

The devotion of Israel to this worship of the calf was partly explained by a circumstance at passing through the Red Sea, when they beheld the most distinct creature about the Celestial Throne which is the resemblance of ox, then they thought it was an ox who had helped God in their journey from Egypt.[8] After seeing Hur son of Miriam who was carelessly murdered by the people following his rebuke of their ingratitude action to God, Aaron was willing rather to take a sin upon himself to make an idol than to cast the burden of an evil deed upon the people if they commit so terrible sin of killing a priest and prophet among them.[

they believed Moses was God and the Calf...and the Ark itself

Exodus 32:20
20 And he took the calf which they had made, and burnt it in the fire, and ground it to powder, and strawed it upon the water, and made the children of Israel drink of it.

In Legends of the Jews, the Conservative rabbi and scholar Louis Ginzberg wrote that the worship of the golden calf was the disastrous consequence for Israel who took a mixed multitude in their exodus from Egypt. Had not the mixed multitude joined them, Israel would not have been misled to worship this molten idol. The form of the calf itself came from a magical virtue of an ornament leaf with the image of the bull which is made by Aaron.[8]

s_5f049b7c6e284684ab95774a.jpg

images

Quote by Genghis Khan: “I am the punishment of God...If you had not com...”
 
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DoubleClutch

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truly its a mystery :smugfavre:

Why did Aaron form the Golden Calf from the Gold the Hebrews kept :jbhmm::jbhmm::jbhmm:



they believed Moses was God and the Calf...and the Ark itself

Exodus 32:20


In Legends of the Jews, the Conservative rabbi and scholar Louis Ginzberg wrote that the worship of the golden calf was the disastrous consequence for Israel who took a mixed multitude in their exodus from Egypt. Had not the mixed multitude joined them, Israel would not have been misled to worship this molten idol. The form of the calf itself came from a magical virtue of an ornament leaf with the image of the bull which is made by Aaron.[8]

s_5f049b7c6e284684ab95774a.jpg

images

Quote by Genghis Khan: “I am the punishment of God...If you had not com...”

wow with all that knowledge you and koichos can’t even agree. :wow:Seems like I’m the only one who can bring both viewpoints together :banderas:
 
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Koichos

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K'lal Yisraʾel
truly its a mystery :smugfavre:

Why did Aaron form the Golden Calf from the Gold the Hebrews kept :jbhmm::jbhmm::jbhmm:



they believed Moses was God and the Calf...and the Ark itself

Exodus 32:20


In Legends of the Jews, the Conservative rabbi and scholar Louis Ginzberg wrote that the worship of the golden calf was the disastrous consequence for Israel who took a mixed multitude in their exodus from Egypt. Had not the mixed multitude joined them, Israel would not have been misled to worship this molten idol. The form of the calf itself came from a magical virtue of an ornament leaf with the image of the bull which is made by Aaron.[8]

s_5f049b7c6e284684ab95774a.jpg

images

Quote by Genghis Khan: “I am the punishment of God...If you had not com...”
You are probably under the impression (which is encouraged by twisted xian 'translations') that the people who were responsible for the calf atrocity were from Yisroʾel, but actually that is not the case. First of all, look at the chant of the worshippers: "Hey, Yisroʾel, these are YOUR gods that brought YOU out of Egypt" (Sh'moth 32:4, 32:8); and then look carefully at what Hashem said to Moshah: "...YOUR people that YOU brought from Egypt have become corrupt..." (Sh'moth 32:7, D'vorim 9:12). Nowhere does Hashem refer to Yisroʾel as "Moshah's people that Moshah brought from Egypt"—He always calls us "My people that I brought from Egypt". Nevertheless, when the FEW Hebrews who had joined in with the unclean idolaters (the עֵרֶב רַב ʿerav rav or "great rabble" that Moshah allowed to escape from Egypt with Yisroʾel, see Sh'moth 12:38) had to be punished, the Torah records in Sh'moth 32:28 that the number of those killed that day amounted to "about three thousand men" (out of a total adult male population of more than 600,000—i.e., less than half of 1%).

The Torah says (Sh'moth 32:4) that it was ʾAharon who made it, but when he was later telling his brother Moshah what had happened, he said:
:וָאֹמַר לָהֶם לְמִי זָהָב הִתְפָּרָקוּ וַיִּתְּנוּ־לִי וָאַשְׁלִכֵהוּ בָאֵשׁ וַיֵּצֵא הָעֵגֶל הַזֶּה​
I said to them, 'Who has any gold? Break it off [yourselves]!' So they gave it to me and I threw it into the fire, and this calf just came out! (Sh'moth 32:24).

The total population (males AND females) who were present is immaterial because the 3,000 who were killed were only the men:
:וַיִּפֹּל מִן־הָעָם בַּיּוֹם הַהוּא כִּשְׁלֹשֶׁת אַלְפֵי אִישׁ...​
...and there fell on that day about three thousands of men (ʾish) of the people. (Sh'moth 32:28)

We also know that in the first census (which, according to B'midbor 1:1 et seq., was held just eleven months after the calf incident) there were found to be 603,550 adult men (this figure is stated on three separate occasions—Sh'moth 38:26, B'midbor 1:46 and B'midbor 2:32), so that the men who were killed for taking part in the calf-idolatry were 3,000 out of 603,550 = 0.497% of the total adult male population. The 'people' who were 'struck with a plague' were the 'mixed rabble' of slaves—the ones primarily responsible for the outrage.

Take a look at Sh'moth 32:7-8
וַיְדַבֵּר יְיָ אֶל־מֹשֶׁה
לֶךְ־רֵד
:כִּי שִׁחֵת עַמְּךָ אֲשֶׁר הֶעֱלֵיתָ מֵאֶרֶץ מִצְרָיִם
סָרוּ מַהֵר מִן־הַדֶּרֶךְ אֲשֶׁר צִוִּיתִם עָשׂוּ לָהֶם עֵגֶל מַסֵּכָה
וַיִּשְׁתַּחֲווּ־לוֹ וַיִּזְבְּחוּ־לוֹ וַיֹּאמְרוּ
אֵלֶּה אֱלֹהֶיךָ יִשְׂרָאֵל
:אֲשֶׁר הֶעֱלוּךָ מֵאֶרֶץ מִצְרָיִם​
Then Hashem said to Moshah,
"Go, descend—
your people that you have brought up from Egypt have acted corruptly;
they have quickly left the way that they were commanded and have made for themselves a melted [gold] calf...
they have worshipped it and made offerings to it, and they have proclaimed:
'Hey, Yisroʾel, these are your gods
that have brought you up from Egypt'."
The text reads אֵלֶּה אֱלֹהֶיךָ ʾellah ʾalohacho ('THESE ARE your gods') and even the verb that follows, הֶעֱלוּךָ haʿalucho, is plural (הֶעֱלוּךָ haʿalucho is the 3rd person plural, past tense hifʿil paradigm הֶעֱלוּ haʿalu 'they brought up' with the 2nd person object-case suffix ךָ־ 'you' added to it); from which the reason for the plural forms is now obvious (the 'mixed rabble' of gentile slaves that Moshah, in a humanitarian gesture, had allowed to leave Egypt together with the escaping Hebrews, had no understanding of a single G-d and so they would naturally have spoken about 'gods' in the plural). Indeed, when spoken by gentiles, אֱלֹהִים ʾalohim is occasionally used in the Tanach in the plural sense of 'the gods' but still referring to G-d Himself: there is an example of this in Sh'muʾel ʾAlaf 4:6-8 vis-à-vis the P'lishtim.
 
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MMS

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You are probably under the impression (which is encouraged by twisted xian 'translations') that the people who were responsible for the calf atrocity were from Yisroʾel, but actually that is not the case. First of all, look at the chant of the worshippers: "Hey, Yisroʾel, these are YOUR gods that brought YOU out of Egypt" (Sh'moth 32:4, 32:8); and then look carefully at what Hashem said to Moshah: "...YOUR people that YOU brought from Egypt have become corrupt..." (Sh'moth 32:7, D'vorim 9:12). Nowhere does Hashem refer to Yisroʾel as "Moshah's people that Moshah brought from Egypt"—He always calls us "My people that I brought from Egypt". Nevertheless, when the FEW Hebrews who had joined in with the unclean idolaters (the עֵרֶב רַב ʿerav rav or "great rabble" that Moshah allowed to escape from Egypt with Yisroʾel, see Sh'moth 12:38) had to be punished, the Torah records in Sh'moth 32:28 that the number of those killed that day amounted to "about three thousand men" (out of a total adult male population of more than 600,000—i.e., less than half of 1%).

The Torah says (Sh'moth 32:4) that it was ʾAharon who made it, but when he was later telling his brother Moshah what had happened, he said:


The total population (males AND females) who were present is immaterial because the 3,000 who were killed were only the men:


We also know that in the first census (which, according to B'midbor 1:1 et seq., was held just eleven months after the calf incident) there were found to be 603,550 adult men (this figure is stated on three separate occasions—Sh'moth 38:26, B'midbor 1:46 and B'midbor 2:32), so that the men who were killed for taking part in the calf-idolatry were 3,000 out of 603,550 = 0.497% of the total adult male population. The 'people' who were 'struck with a plague' were the 'mixed rabble' of slaves—the ones primarily responsible for the outrage.

Take a look at Sh'moth 32:7-8

The text reads אֵלֶּה אֱלֹהֶיךָ ʾellah ʾalohacho ('THESE ARE your gods') and even the verb that follows, הֶעֱלוּךָ haʿalucho, is plural (הֶעֱלוּךָ haʿalucho is the 3rd person plural, past tense hifʿil paradigm הֶעֱלוּ haʿalu 'they brought up' with the 2nd person object-case suffix ךָ־ 'you' added to it); from which the reason for the plural forms is now obvious (the 'mixed rabble' of gentile slaves that Moshah, in a humanitarian gesture, had allowed to leave Egypt together with the escaping Hebrews, had no understanding of a single G-d and so they would naturally have spoken about 'gods' in the plural). Indeed, when spoken by gentiles, אֱלֹהִים ʾalohim is occasionally used in the Tanach in the plural sense of 'the gods' but still referring to G-d Himself: there is an example of this in Sh'muʾel ʾAlaf 4:6-8 vis-à-vis the P'lishtim.

Exodus 7:1-6
1 And the Lord said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.

2 Thou shalt speak all that I command thee: and Aaron thy brother shall speak unto Pharaoh, that he send the children of Israel out of his land.

3 And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt.

4 But Pharaoh shall not hearken unto you, that I may lay my hand upon Egypt, and bring forth mine armies, and my people the children of Israel, out of the land of Egypt by great judgments.

5 And the Egyptians shall know that I am the Lord, when I stretch forth mine hand upon Egypt, and bring out the children of Israel from among them.

6 And Moses and Aaron did as the Lord commanded them, so did they.

something still doesnt add up in regards to this statement :jbhmm: either this is true or false :unimpressed::leostare:

Heh (god) - Wikipedia



Babi (mythology) - Wikipedia
Lot's wife - Wikipedia
 
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DoubleClutch

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I didn't.

Seems long.

Does he refute my two facts?

No writing about Jesus outside the Bible

The writing about Jesus occurring after any witnesses were alive

yea you gotta watch it. It’s pretty informative. And you can obviously google and fact check what he saying

Plus all his other videos seem legit as for as the topics/content he covers
 

MMS

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DoubleClutch

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It’s book knowledge yes :umad:

I’m just saying you and him together are probably most knowledgeable on religion in this entire forum

but despite this you don’t agree on a major issue like Moses and what god the children of Israel worshiped. Shows understanding > knowledge :whew:

I agree with Koichos regarding pretty much all things Torah and Judaism (which you disagree with) but he doesn’t agree with me on Jesus (and you claim to believe in Jesus)

so I’m basically the missing link between you two :banderas:
 
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MMS

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It’s book knowledge yes :umad:

I’m just saying you and him together are probably most knowledgeable on religion in this entire forum

but despite this you don’t agree on a major issue like Moses and what god the children of Israel worshiped. Shows understanding > knowledge :whew:

I agree with Koichos regarding pretty much all things Torah and Judaism (which you disagree with) but he doesn’t agree with me on Jesus (and you claim to believe in Jesus)

so I’m basically the missing link between you two :banderas:
i would say "not understanding" >>> both

in a sense, the more you look into something...the more you idolize it

but if you worship ink and paper, or letters on a screen...you might forget what you're truly looking at

btw OP @Ghost Utmost , why didnt you title the thread "Are we living in a world of illusion?" instead of "We are living in a world of illusion." :jbhmm:

Cyclopes - Wikipedia
In Greek mythology and later Roman mythology, the Cyclopes (/saɪˈkloʊpiːz/ sy-KLOH-peez; Greek: Κύκλωπες, Kýklōpes, "Circle-eyes" or "Round-eyes";[1] singular Cyclops /ˈsaɪklɒps/ SY-klops; Κύκλωψ, Kýklōps) are giant one-eyed creatures.[2] Three groups of Cyclopes can be distinguished. In Hesiod's Theogony, the Cyclopes are the three brothers Brontes, Steropes, and Arges, who made for Zeus his weapon the thunderbolt. In Homer's Odyssey, they are an uncivilized group of shepherds, the brethren of Polyphemus encountered by Odysseus. Cyclopes were also famous as the builders of the Cyclopean walls of Mycenae and Tiryns.



Koppa (letter) - Wikipedia
Koppa or qoppa (Ϙ, ϙ; as a modern numeral sign: ϟ) is a letter that was used in early forms of the Greek alphabet, derived from Phoenician qoph (). It was originally used to denote the /k/ sound, but dropped out of use as an alphabetic character in favor of Kappa (Κ). It has remained in use as a numeral symbol (90) in the system of Greek numerals, although with a modified shape. Koppa is the source of Latin Q, as well as the Cyrillic numeral sign of the same name (Koppa).

Gematria value of thunderbolt is 609 - English, Hebrew and Simple Gematria Calculator Values

Kaph - Wikipedia



Kaph is thought to be derived from a pictogram of a hand (in both modern Arabic and modern Hebrew, kaph כף means palm/grip) though in Arabic the a in the name of the letter (كاف) is pronounced longer than the a in the word meaning palm (كَف).

hiero_D46.png

Min (god) - Wikipedia

Egyptian women would touch the penises of statues of Min in hopes of pregnancy, a practice still continued today.[8]

:mjlol::dwillhuh::gucci::mjtf:
 
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