What Is The Coli's Thoughts On Voting For The Corrupt vs. Not Voting At All

[NoMayo15]

What are you doing? Nothing?
Oh you are doing something? You voting for corporate democrats? So you making shyt WORSE?

Please fall back & do nothing instead.

You seem to have this very odd, almost childlike, view of the world. It sounds like you believe that if any bit of a politician is bad (or corrupt as you put it), then no policy they enact can do good. Is the money influence in our political process a troubling reality? Yes, but electing individuals promoting affordable healthcare is BETTER. Electing those who defend the civil rights of minority groups is BETTER. If you aren't able to be even a bit pragmatic then I get why you have no use for voting. In a lot of ways life IS better than it was, say, 50 years ago, and the fact that corporate interests wield a lot of influence over both parties doesn't change that. For example, I want both, but I can concede campaign finance reform now if we can enact policies to de-militarize the police. But I don't just take my ball and go home, i.e. give up my right, if neither candidate agrees with me ... I'm an adult.

I look at voting as a tactic to help achieve an end ... preserving liberal principles. How does "doing nothing" help reach this goal?

 

[Prince.Skeletor]

You seem to have this very odd, almost childlike, view of the world. It sounds like you believe that if any bit of a politician is bad (or corrupt as you put it), then no policy they enact can do good. Is the money influence in our political process a troubling reality? Yes, but electing individuals promoting affordable healthcare is BETTER.

See it is your perception of reality that is childlike. I will explain how.
The democrats that you vote in that are "fighting" for healthcare, do they really want healthcare?
Let's talk about that, what do you need for affordable or even free healthcare? You need funding.
Do you agree with all the wars going on that America is spearheading?
Well let's see if these Dems really want what they are shouting for shall we? Okay so allow me to destroy you!

89% of Senate Democrats Help Pass The $696.5B Defense Bill
Much attention has focused on a new attempt to repeal the Affordable Care Act, otherwise known as Obamacare. The Graham-Cassidy bill is being pushed without hearings or a Congressional Budget Office score that would estimate how many would lose coverage and any budget impact.
But while eyes had turned to another attack on the current structure of healthcare, one that reportedly could heavily cut healthcare funding for low-income people, something else happened. The Senate took up the $696.5 billion defense bill that the House passed in July with support of 60% of Democrats.

And the Senate passed the measure with the support of 41 out of 46 Democratic senators. That was more than 89% of the Democrats; 90%, or 48, of the Republicans voted in favor of the bill.

Remember, please, that the Department of Defense is the only federal agency that is incapable of passing a financial audit. That should be the basic level of performance that is required of organization being entrusted with that much money. Last year, the Pentagon tried to hide $125 billion in wasted spending that took place over a five-year period.

89% of Senate Democrats Help Pass The $696.5B Defense Bill


So let's be clear here, your great benevolent democrats approved an insane amount of money to an unauditable entity that tried to hide billions in wasted spending before, and insane amount of money that will soon be covered in blood through illegal wars(illegal & unconstituational because not passed through house/senate) that could have gone towards your affordable or even free healthcare. Instead that money will be used to kill innocent civilians and further destabilize many countries.

Electing those who defend the civil rights of minority groups is BETTER. If you aren't able to be even a bit pragmatic then I get why you have no use for voting. In a lot of ways life IS better than it was, say, 50 years ago,

Life is better? For whom?
How many innocent civilians, women and kids died because of all these wars??? How much blood was spilled?
US share of world arms exports from 78 percent to 83 percent within the period of slightly over a decade, if you look at the UN Security Council check out the permanent members, then check who are largest arms dealers in the world. You may see that the two lists look very familiar. Those "in charge" of world peace are the world's biggest arms dealers.

The world is far from a better place, now you will have americans who from birth to death were alive when their country was at war during their entire lifetime, that was never the case before.
50 years ago America was the good guy in the wars and now they are the bad guys in war and the ones pushing for perpetual war.

You talk of corporate interests groups, well follow the money and you will see that the largests amount of money go to war profiteers, and that money is the biggest bucket of money that can help your free or affordable healthcare but Democrats's actions do not mimic their party platform.

So it is you who needs to grow up bud.

 

[NoMayo15]

@Baphomet I can't believe you typed so much to say so little. The only thing you've managed to demonstrate with the previous post is your lack of historical knowledge, and again, childlike view of the U.S. That couldn't be more perfectly demonstrated by your claim that "America was the good guy in wars, and now they are the bad guys". That's such a simplistic, black and white belief, I don't even know if it's worth really examining with you. You really think life was better during Jim Crow and we were "the good guys" in Vietnam? How?

Also, simple google search will show you that the U.S. has essentially been in a perpetual state of war, between one country or another, since it's inception. Many historians view 1968 as one of the most tumultuous years in American history, due to the civil rights protests, and wars in Vietnam/Indochina. And you're simply misinformed if you believe this is the only time in U.S. history where a person could be born and die while the U.S. was at war. If you want to look purely at body count, then that's a bit harder to say, but you clearly have no idea about the millions of civilians who were killed during 20th century wars.

But that entire point was completely irrelevant to what I argued. I never said the Democrats were benevolent rulers, or that I agree with every action they make. Rather, they are more helpful in enforcing policy I agree with. One, I don't have a problem with them passing a defense budget ... but that says nothing about their individual positions on the wars we're involved in now. If you think those two are related then... again, more evidence of your limited understanding of politics. You've still have yet to address how doing nothing would help reach my goals. Stay on topic, or don't respond unless you are directly going to address my main argument.

 

[Secure Da Bag]

You voting for corporate democrats?

That's the worst of it. Because YOU DON'T HAVE TO VOTE FOR THEM. These MFers take your vote for granted. As they have shown time and time again. We vote as a block. The only racial or ethnic group that does. There's power in that. Voting for someone because "they're not Republlican" is not only a waste of a vote but just fukking irresponsible. You might as well not vote if you're just gonna throw your vote away and hope for the best. There are other options. There are ways to force options. But people wanna Clinton cac-ride and stay with these boogeyman binary excuses for voting. The fukk is wrong is with you all.

 

[Secure Da Bag]

You've still have yet to address how doing nothing would help reach my goals.

Let Democrats lose every election for the next 4 or 8 years because black folk didn't bother voting for them and let black folk press them on why they haven't done better. And let those Dems know that they're losing because they're not doing the job they are supposed to do. Then see if you get any positive results then.

 

[Corndog]

Not voting "on principle" or "because neither candidate really expresses my viewpoint" or whatever is the most juvenile, pathetic, contemptible shyt in the world. The purpose of voting isn't to fukking grandstand on your moral purity, or to express yourself. The purpose of voting is to make choices that are going to shape the lives of millions not just in this country, but worldwide.

It's telling that I mostly heard that bullshyt from middle/upper class white dudes, who stood to loose basically nothing on the results of the last election. fukk that, and fukk anyone who tries to justify that egotistical, smug, elitist garbage.

 

[Secure Da Bag]

Not voting "on principle" or "because neither candidate really expresses my viewpoint" or whatever is the most juvenile, pathetic, contemptible shyt in the world. The purpose of voting isn't to fukking grandstand on your moral purity, or to express yourself. The purpose of voting is to make choices that are going to shape the lives of millions not just in this country, but worldwide.

Yeah... it's not. The purpose of voting is to make the voice of the citizen heard, remove those from power the voter feels have not done an adequate enough job, and have the elected government serve the needs of the people. Voting from fear, blind contempt, or blind loyalty is the most juvenile, pathetic, and contemptible shyt in the world. It's show you don't know how to vote, you're easily manipulated, and you're playing yourself.

Don't confuse cause with effect.

It's telling that I mostly heard that bullshyt from middle/upper class white dudes, who stood to loose basically nothing on the results of the last election. fukk that, and fukk anyone who tries to justify that egotistical, smug, elitist garbage.

Oddly enough, a few prominent upper black dudes (ex: Tariq Nasheed, Corey Holcomb) seem to feel the same way. You vote to make to make things better, not to keep things from getting worse.

And I'll say it again, there are other choices to vote from than Corporate Democrats.

 

[Corndog]

Yeah... it's not. The purpose of voting is to make the voice of the citizen heard, remove those from power the voter feels have not done an adequate enough job, and have the elected government serve the needs of the people. Voting from fear, blind contempt, or blind loyalty is the most juvenile, pathetic, and contemptible shyt in the world. It's show you don't know how to vote, you're easily manipulated, and you're playing yourself.

Don't confuse cause with effect.



Oddly enough, a few prominent upper black dudes (ex: Tariq Nasheed, Corey Holcomb) seem to feel the same way. You vote to make to make things better, not to keep things from getting worse.

And I'll say it again, there are other choices to vote from than Corporate Democrats.

How exactly do we disagree? Not voting isn't going to make anything better, nor is it going to remove anyone from power, and it most certainly, by definition, doesn't make anyone's voice heard or call the government to account vis-a-vis the desires of the people. These are all tangible effects of voting, actual decisions that get made. None of this can be accomplished by just abstaining from the process.

Am I missing something important here? I'm genuinely confused.

 

[Secure Da Bag]

How exactly do we disagree?

On voting we agree pretty much 90%. I only had a real issue with the "worldwide" part. That's more an effect not the cause of voting. And in some places, there's not worldwide effect at all.

Not voting isn't going to make anything better, nor is it going to remove anyone from power, and it most certainly, by definition, doesn't make anyone's voice heard or call the government to account vis-a-vis the desires of the people. These are all tangible effects of voting, actual decisions that get made. None of this can be accomplished by just abstaining from the process.

So this is where we disagree. Just speaking in terms of the Democrats and black voters. When black voters don't go to the polls, democrats tend to lose. This happens time and time again. As the Alabama special election showed, when black folk do go to the polls Democrats more often than not win. So our power is in fact in the use of our vote. As still the largest minority voting block in the US, we have to use that to our advantage. When we don't, we are taken for granted and/or dismissed. So if Democrats aren't doing good job and, IMO, more importantly aren't meeting the needs of our power, then we need to show them the price for that. Whether that's voting for a sub-party (Justice Democrats), another party (Green Party), a radical shift for someone who will take care of our core needs (Rand Paul), or not voting at all (make them lose seats and therefore power), we need to demonstrate to those we elect that our votes count, must be respected, and come at a real price. Not voting is the "break in case of emergency" option, but it should always be an option. In much the same way the US prefers diplomacy, but has no problem letting an adversary know that those hammers can drop if push comes to shove.

Am I missing something important here? I'm genuinely confused.

Is my position any clearer now?

 

[Corndog]

On voting we agree pretty much 90%. I only had a real issue with the "worldwide" part. That's more an effect not the cause of voting. And in some places, there's not worldwide effect at all.



So this is where we disagree. Just speaking in terms of the Democrats and black voters. When black voters don't go to the polls, democrats tend to lose. This happens time and time again. As the Alabama special election showed, when black folk do go to the polls Democrats more often than not win. So our power is in fact in the use of our vote. As still the largest minority voting block in the US, we have to use that to our advantage. When we don't, we are taken for granted and/or dismissed. So if Democrats aren't doing good job and, IMO, more importantly aren't meeting the needs of our power, then we need to show them the price for that. Whether that's voting for a sub-party (Justice Democrats), another party (Green Party), a radical shift for someone who will take care of our core needs (Rand Paul), or not voting at all (make them lose seats and therefore power), we need to demonstrate to those we elect that our votes count, must be respected, and come at a real price. Not voting is the "break in case of emergency" option, but it should always be an option. In much the same way the US prefers diplomacy, but has no problem letting an adversary know that those hammers can drop if push comes to shove.



Is my position any clearer now?

OK yeah I see what you're saying now. And yeah the worldwide thing frequently doesn't apply outside of the Presidential race. Nonetheless I disagree w you, because I think it's important to be pragmatic about the actual results of an election. Yes you can withhold your votes from Democratic candidates, either by not voting or by voting for various figures who will never occupy office. But thereby putting people into power who advocate nakedly racist policies and economic abuse by the ultra-rich seems to me to be too high a price to pay for "sending a message" to the Democratic establishment.

And my man you seriously think Rand Paul is going to address the needs of the black community? I mean he's not as bad as many but he pushes that "small govt. except for military spending" bullshyt. This is ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS a smokescreen for gutting social programs.

 

[Secure Da Bag]

OK yeah I see what you're saying now. And yeah the worldwide thing frequently doesn't apply outside of the Presidential race. Nonetheless I disagree w you, because I think it's important to be pragmatic about the actual results of an election. Yes you can withhold your votes from Democratic candidates, either by not voting or by voting for various figures who will never occupy office. But thereby putting people into power who advocate nakedly racist policies and economic abuse by the ultra-rich seems to me to be too high a price to pay for "sending a message" to the Democratic establishment.

So here's my problem with that, the pragmatism of the black vote has been, from what I've seen, to not let things get worse, but not necessarily have things get better. In some cases, we may even support bills that screw us over and we don't realize until it's too late. Clinton welfare bill, IIRC.

In the 50 years after the Civil Rights Bill, I honestly can't think of 3 bills specifically crafted for the benefit and betterment of black people in the US. I want to be wrong and definitely educated on this if I'm wrong. And to be clear, I don't mean bills that we just happen (basically by accident) to benefit. I mean actual bills and laws where the primarily recipient and beneficiary are black people.

And my man you seriously think Rand Paul is going to address the needs of the black community? I mean he's not as bad as many but he pushes that "small govt. except for military spending" bullshyt. This is ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS a smokescreen for gutting social programs.

I'm more concerned with the views on criminal justice, drug laws, and education. The things he has to say on the matter are encouraging and actually speak the ills of the community. And I believe he's the only Republican, that I can remember, that has made an effort to reach out to the black community during a non-election cycle. Of course, that stopped when he ran for President though.

Nina Turner for 2020. The only candidate I can trust.

 

[hashmander]

i always vote for the candidate that i feel will make the LEAST worst decisions. the real world isn't fantasy where every decision you make no one suffers. someone somewhere is hurt by every decision a president makes.

 

[Corndog]

I mean actual bills and laws where the primarily recipient and beneficiary are black people.

Until the demographics of the legislature shift drastically -- which is to say, until it isn't made up more or less entirely of old white men -- this just isn't going to happen, in my opinion. Sad, but it it is what it is. Until the baby boomers die off and a younger, less comprehensively racist, generation begins to take control of things, the best we can do is just hold off the tide of straight-up abuse and disenfranchisement.

But I feel you. Your position is at least considered and well expressed. Glad reasonable people who disagree can still have a conversation though in this day and age.

 

[NoMayo15]

Let Democrats lose every election for the next 4 or 8 years because black folk didn't bother voting for them and let black folk press them on why they haven't done better. And let those Dems know that they're losing because they're not doing the job they are supposed to do. Then see if you get any positive results then.

Okay, so your solution is to allow Republicans reign for nearly a decade... to the detriment of my people... whose policies will likely cause harm for at least a generation? If that's not the dumbest thing I've ever heard.

That's the worst of it. Because YOU DON'T HAVE TO VOTE FOR THEM. These MFers take your vote for granted. As they have shown time and time again. We vote as a block. The only racial or ethnic group that does. There's power in that. Voting for someone because "they're not Republlican" is not only a waste of a vote but just fukking irresponsible. You might as well not vote if you're just gonna throw your vote away and hope for the best. There are other options. There are ways to force options. But people wanna Clinton cac-ride and stay with these boogeyman binary excuses for voting. The fukk is wrong is with you all.

True, I don't have to vote for them. But the only way you throw your vote away is to STAY AT HOME. If you value liberal principals, the only thing more harmful is probably voting for Republicans. I don't even know if you're arguing against voting now.

 

[Secure Da Bag]

Okay, so your solution is to allow Republicans reign for nearly a decade... to the detriment of my people... whose policies will likely cause harm for at least a generation? If that's not the dumbest thing I've ever heard.

And yet it has already happened twice with you voting and getting nothing for it. And you wanna go for it a 3rd time! If that's not the dumbest thing ever done.