Who was considered the Goat before MJ [edit : Poll Added]

[Professor Emeritus]

Okay, and a single game sample size simply does not compare to an entire season/Playoff run. No matter how big the game.

How players play in the biggest games is MORE important than regular season statistics. Magic has those fantastic performances with the season on the line, Bird has more often than not come up lacking in those very moments.

I posted Bird's regular season and Playoff numbers in totality, there is little drop off.

Season by season there was definitely a drop-off. I already pointed out why your numbers were off - because they factored in his last 5 regular seasons when he was injured and played much worse. But when you look at 1979-1988, the seasons that actually matter for his legacy, he stepped back significantly in the playoffs.

When did Magic ever overcome a superior team in the West? There was nobody on the Lakers level out West during their run.

Why does it have to be in the West? You're created ridiculous goalposts. They beat the Sixers twice (once with Kareem on the bench in the deciding game), the Celtics twice, and the Pistons. They have a much more impressive run of big wins than the Celtics too.

The Celtics had to contend with Sixers and Pistons teams with championship pedigree. A crippled Celtics team beat an elite Bad Boys Pistons in '87 right before their run to three straight Finals and two titles.

"right before" is the key phrase. That Pistons team wasn't ready yet. Dumars was just 23, Salley was just 22, Rodman was just 25 and had only been playing serious basketball for a few years. Isaiah was already peaking at 25 but he'd only won 1 playoff series in his entire career before that point. That was the first time that Pistons lineup advanced past the 1st round, it's not surprising that they didn't overcome a bunch of championship vets. Going straight from a 1st-round exit to a Finals appearance in just 1 season would have been more surprising.

So now the Celtics won in '86 because the refs were on some white supremacy shyt?

If you're a Black American and you think white guys born in the 1930s were calling games straight in the 1980s....

The entire league was eager to see White players come to the forefront in the 1980s. There was the impression that the NBA had become "too Black" in the 1970s and turned off their fanbase. Favoring White players would have made sense as company policy (just like superstar calls and the big market edge that NY/LA teams get) even if the refs themselves weren't on any "White Supremacy shyt".

Regardless of theories, did you watch the game I posted or not? What do you think about the calls that were being called on Houston players? What did you think of Boston's physicality on rebounds and hacking of Hakeem that went uncalled? You don't find it the slightest bit odd that Houston's whole lineup was in foul trouble and they were at a significant ft disadvantage just one series after dominating the Lakers by 40 at the foul line?

 

[Joe Sixpack]

I always heard kareem

 

[Joe Sixpack]

This never really came up until MJ came around.

But I think the players I heard about the most was either Wilt Chamberlain or Kareem

 

[Hacksaw Jim Thuggin]

I'm 30 yrs
those who are older than me can y all answer this

I always thought
that its was bill rusell
then Kareem
and then Magic/Bird

what y'all think ?

no one was

i'll be 46 in June

nobody talked this way before social media

you know the 1st time i every heard or saw the term GOAT used? it was LL Cool J back in 2000....that nikka had an album named that

you young nikkas created this bull shyt with MJ...

 

[GOAT]

How players play in the biggest games is MORE important than regular season statistics. Magic has those fantastic performances with the season on the line, Bird has more often than not come up lacking in those very moments.




Season by season there was definitely a drop-off. I already pointed out why your numbers were off - because they factored in his last 5 regular seasons when he was injured and played much worse. But when you look at 1979-1988, the seasons that actually matter for his legacy, he stepped back significantly in the playoffs.




Why does it have to be in the West? You're created ridiculous goalposts. They beat the Sixers twice (once with Kareem on the bench in the deciding game), the Celtics twice, and the Pistons. They have a much more impressive run of big wins than the Celtics too.




"right before" is the key phrase. That Pistons team wasn't ready yet. Dumars was just 23, Salley was just 22, Rodman was just 25 and had only been playing serious basketball for a few years. Isaiah was already peaking at 25 but he'd only won 1 playoff series in his entire career before that point. That was the first time that Pistons lineup advanced past the 1st round, it's not surprising that they didn't overcome a bunch of championship vets. Going straight from a 1st-round exit to a Finals appearance in just 1 season would have been more surprising.




If you're a Black American and you think white guys born in the 1930s were calling games straight in the 1980s....

The entire league was eager to see White players come to the forefront in the 1980s. There was the impression that the NBA had become "too Black" in the 1970s and turned off their fanbase. Favoring White players would have made sense as company policy (just like superstar calls and the big market edge that NY/LA teams get) even if the refs themselves weren't on any "White Supremacy shyt".

Regardless of theories, did you watch the game I posted or not? What do you think about the calls that were being called on Houston players? What did you think of Boston's physicality on rebounds and hacking of Hakeem that went uncalled? You don't find it the slightest bit odd that Houston's whole lineup was in foul trouble and they were at a significant ft disadvantage just one series after dominating the Lakers by 40 at the foul line?

Coming through in big games is great, but you don't rank players on a handful of individual games. You rank them on their entire body of work. The numbers I posted factored in his late Playoff runs in those same years as well. That's the point. It's the TOTALITY of his career. Not making excuses for his worst periods where he was old injured, and not dismissing his best years with great teams. It's the whole picture.

Weren't you just dismissing the '80 Sixers team ("before they had Moses")? Now you want to prop them up because Magic beat them? You can't have it both ways. And Bird beat that same Sixers team in '81 and a Sixers team with Moses, Dr. J, Mo Cheeks, Andrew Toney, and a rookie Chuck in '85. The Celtics were not a superior team that the Lakers overcame. Both teams were stacked. The Lakers were favored in '84 when the C's won. The C's were hobbled in '87.

I did not watch that game within the last couple of hours we were arguing lol. I have seen it multiple times though, and I did not see a rigged game based on white supremacy. You clearly have a strong hate for those 80s Celtic teams.

 

[YoungMoneyCashMoneyBoy]

no one was

i'll be 46 in June

nobody talked this way before social media

you know the 1st time i every heard or saw the term GOAT used? it was LL Cool J back in 2000....that nikka had an album named that

you young nikkas created this bull shyt with MJ...

You cant be 46 and this clueless.

"Who's the greatest?" has been a topic of discussion across sports since time immemorial; from boxing to baseball to track and field. It pre-dates "Young nikkas" and "MJ".

It actually goes beyond sports - from actors to singers to kings to military leaders. Proclaiming someone as the greatest isn't new.

 

[Higher Tech]

Elgin Baylor was on some people’s list. Basketball was really regional before the Jordan era. People didnt watch outside of what was broadcast in their area and you didn’t have highlight shows, just newspaper articles and the little but of sports on the nightly news. With that said, I believe that’s why you get a wide range of answers to who the GOAT was before MJ.

 

[Professor Emeritus]

Coming through in big games is great, but you don't rank players on a handful of individual games. You rank them on their entire body of work. The numbers I posted factored in his late Playoff runs in those same years as well. That's the point. It's the TOTALITY of his career. Not making excuses for his worst periods where he was old injured, and not dismissing his best years with great teams. It's the whole picture.

You never see a player's peak potential in the regular season or in outmatched playoff wins. You only see it when the odds are against them and they're forced to come up with everything. Those games have an outweighed significance.

Weren't you just dismissing the '80 Sixers team ("before they had Moses")? Now you want to prop them up because Magic beat them? You can't have it both ways. And Bird beat that same Sixers team in '81

Magic beat them with no Kareem. An older Bird lost in 5 despite home court advantage and two HOFers alongside him. You seem to want to ignore context of every statement.

And Bird only came back and beat them after picking up Parish and McHale - that Celtics team had FOUR Hall of Famers plus the Finals MVP Cedric Maxwell. Of course they won. Again, you ignore the context.

and a Sixers team with Moses, Dr. J, Mo Cheeks, Andrew Toney, and a rookie Chuck in '85.

Please, you know full well the Celtics were the much better team. Those same Sixers lost in the 1st round the previous year and in the 2nd round the next year, they were still good but they had aged past the point of being legitimate title contenders. Mo Cheeks was the leading scorer in that series lol.

The Celtics were not a superior team that the Lakers overcame. Both teams were stacked. The Lakers were favored in '84 when the C's won. In 87 the C's were hobbled in '87.

As I pointed out multiple times, the 5 teams the Lakers beat in the Finals were all better than anyone Larry Bird ever beat outside of that one series where Tragic Johnson literally just gave the games away. Bird doesn't have those big wins against big opponents that Magic does.

I did not watch that game within the last couple of hours we were arguing lol. I have seen it multiple times though, and I did not see a rigged game based on white supremacy. You clearly have a strong hate for those 80s Celtic teams.

So you think that the NBA wasn't interested in White stars succeeding during that critical 80s period, that White refs born in the 1930s were always calling shyt straight in the 1980s, and that the whitest team in the league getting massive free throw advantages in its two most critical games was just a coincidence?

 

[GOAT]

You never see a player's peak potential in the regular season or in outmatched playoff wins. You only see it when the odds are against them and they're forced to come up with everything. Those games have an outweighed significance.




Magic beat them with no Kareem. An older Bird lost in 5 despite home court advantage and two HOFers alongside him. You seem to want to ignore context of every statement.

And Bird only came back and beat them after picking up Parish and McHale - that Celtics team had FOUR Hall of Famers plus the Finals MVP Cedric Maxwell. Of course they won. Again, you ignore the context.




Please, you know full well the Celtics were the much better team. Those same Sixers lost in the 1st round the previous year and in the 2nd round the next year, they were still good but they had aged past the point of being legitimate title contenders. Mo Cheeks was the leading scorer in that series lol.




As I pointed out multiple times, the 5 teams the Lakers beat in the Finals were all better than anyone Larry Bird ever beat outside of that one series where Tragic Johnson literally just gave the games away. Bird doesn't have those big wins against big opponents that Magic does.




So you think that the NBA wasn't interested in White stars succeeding during that critical 80s period, that White refs born in the 1930s were always calling shyt straight in the 1980s, and that the whitest team in the league getting massive free throw advantages in its two most critical games was just a coincidence?

They're important, but they do not outweigh an 82 game + 16 game sample size. That's nonsense. Magic won 1 game without Kareem. He didn't win the '80 title without Kareem. Kareem dominated that series, was the best player on the team, and was a GOAT contender in his prime.

McHale was a role player in '81 and Tiny was completely washed the entire time Bird played with him. Saying he had four HOFers is incredibly disingenuous. Even Parish was only a HOFer because he played on championship teams with Bird. He was on his way to having a Brad Daugherty caliber career before he got to Boston.

The '85 Sixers won 58 games and had TWO all star starters. On what planet is that not a title contender? They also had a great supporting cast with Cheeks, Jones, Toney, Chuck, etc.


The Celtics beat all the same teams Magic beat in the Finals (except themselves of course lol) in the East. He beat the exact Sixers team Magic beat in '80 and '82 (with his "four hall of famers", two of which were role players at the time) and beat the Pistons in '87 with an immobile McHale and back issues of his own.

I do not believe the Celtics beat the Houston Rockets in '86 because of white supremacy, no.

 

[Professor Emeritus]

McHale was a role player in '81 and Tiny was completely washed the entire time Bird played with him. Saying he had four HOFers is incredibly disingenuous. Even Parish was only a HOFer because he played on championship teams with Bird. He was on his way to having a Brad Daugherty caliber career before he got to Boston.

Tiny made 3 straight all-star games alongside Bird and was 2nd-team All-NBA during their championship season, but now you have him as "completely washed" lol. He got fukking MVP votes in 1980 and 1981. I swear you just looked at this regular season stats and made up a narrative without realizing that he was sharing the rock with a ton more players after Bird/Parish/McHale/Carr came in.

That reminds me of another thing you distorted - that year the Celtics only won 30 games was also the year Tiny was coming off his Achilles injury and wasn't nearly himself. He took a full year to get back like everyone does from an achilles. So the Celtics got 3 new rotation players including Bird AND got a healthier Tiny back, and you were trying to make it out like Bird was the only addition to the team.

And you're right that McHale was a role player at that point but lol at downplaying Parish. He was already putting up 17-12-3 before he ever played with Bird and would be a 9-time all-star.

The '85 Sixers won 58 games and had TWO all star starters. On what planet is that not a title contender? They also had a great supporting cast with Cheeks, Jones, Toney, Chuck, etc.

On the planet where both of those all-star starters were clearly beginning the downturn of their careers. On the planet where they had lost in the 1st round the previous year. On the planet where they were facing a team with 5 HOFs, 4 of which were in their prime or near-prime and the 5th who was 6th man of the year.

The Celtics beat all the same teams Magic beat in the Finals (except themselves of course lol) in the East. He beat the exact Sixers team Magic beat in '80 and '82 (with his "four hall of famers", two of which were role players at the time) and beat the Pistons in '87 with an immobile McHale and back issues of his own.

Again, you're just clueless about context. The 1988 Pistons were a better team than the 1987 Pistons just like the 1991 Bulls were a better team than the 1990 Bulls. The 1987 Pistons hadn't even won a playoff series as a team until that year, the were fresh as hell and you're trying to make it out like a year of experience and an additional deep playoff run doesn't change a team.

And lol at Tiny being a "role player" in a season where he was an All-star and 2nd-team All-NBA.

I do not believe the Celtics beat the Houston Rockets in '86 because of white supremacy, no.

I love how you keep throwing out that "White Supremacy" red herring because you're shook to answer any of the questions I actually asked.



I'm done. We're gonna have to agree to disagree.

 

[GOAT]

Tiny made 3 straight all-star games alongside Bird and was 2nd-team All-NBA during their championship season, but now you have him as "completely washed" lol. He got fukking MVP votes in 1980 and 1981. I swear you just looked at this regular season stats and made up a narrative without realizing that he was sharing the rock with a ton more players after Bird/Parish/McHale/Carr came in.

That reminds me of another thing you distorted - that year the Celtics only won 30 games was also the year Tiny was coming off his Achilles injury and wasn't nearly himself. He took a full year to get back like everyone does from an achilles. So the Celtics got 3 new rotation players including Bird AND got a healthier Tiny back, and you were trying to make it out like Bird was the only addition to the team.

And you're right that McHale was a role player at that point but lol at downplaying Parish. He was already putting up 17-12-3 before he ever played with Bird and would be a 9-time all-star.




On the planet where both of those all-star starters were clearly beginning the downturn of their careers. On the planet where they had lost in the 1st round the previous year. On the planet where they were facing a team with 5 HOFs, 4 of which were in their prime or near-prime and the 5th who was 6th man of the year.




Again, you're just clueless about context. The 1988 Pistons were a better team than the 1987 Pistons just like the 1991 Bulls were a better team than the 1990 Bulls. The 1987 Pistons hadn't even won a playoff series as a team until that year, the were fresh as hell and you're trying to make it out like a year of experience and an additional deep playoff run doesn't change a team.

And lol at Tiny being a "role player" in a season where he was an All-star and 2nd-team All-NBA.




I love how you keep throwing out that "White Supremacy" red herring because you're shook to answer any of the questions I actually asked.



I'm done. We're gonna have to agree to disagree.

Tiny was a negative defensively and inefficient offensively when he played with Bird. Who ever gave him MVP votes is a shockingly bad analyst and shouldn't have gotten the ability to vote. Tiny in his time in Boston was NOT CLOSE to HOF worthy and his peak was about a decade earlier. So we agree McHale was a role player in '81. Cool. You tried to categorize him as a HOFer at that point previously. Parish only has 2 all NBA appearances his whole career and none before Boston. He was an ordinary All Star reserve before he got to the C's. 17/12/3 is what you're hyping up? After the Bird numbers I posted that you tried to discredit?


Dr. J and Moses were all star starters in '85 on planet Earth. And if you disagree with the selections, who should have started over them? And they were both absolutely, unequivocally better than "HOFer" 1981 Tiny Archibald. Who the hell cares what happened the year before. We've seen teams win titles and then lose in the first round the next year. A 58 win team with two all star starters and a first team all-NBAer with a great supporting cast is a championship contender. Point blank.

The '86 Pistons didn't have Dantley, their leading fukking scorer. They didn't have Rodman, their elite perimeter defender. The had a rookie Dumars. They were not the same team at all. And I'M the one ignoring context? The '87 Pistons were MUCH closer to the '88 Pistons than the '86 Pistons, both personnel and record wise. Only two games separated the '87 and '88 team. And they lacked experience against the Lakers in the Finals too. And still got fukked out of a championship on a bad call.

Tiny in 4 seasons with Bird 14/8/2 on 56% TS. This is in the era where according to YOU, 28/10/7 on 60% TS in a four year stretch isn't impressive because of the pace of play. So how is that not role player status?

I'm not shook to answer anything. I already said I don't buy that nonsense that the refs were favoring the Celtics in that series because they were the whiter team.

 

[Lord_Chief_Rocka]

A lot of people thought Bird was the GOAT after 1986, then Magic started building his case with his play in the late 80s

Kareem was probably the real GOAT before Jordan but he used to get overlooked when he was still playing. Older people gravitated towards Wilt/Russell, younger people gravitated towards Magic/Bird

He got overlooked because Magic was better than him

 

[Lord_Chief_Rocka]

I swear this Kareem shyt is funny. Ninjas just saying it I guess. His dominance was when there was two leagues

And he wasn’t even the best player for most of his titles.

 

[Professor Emeritus]

Goddamn, I'm gonna have to reply one more time cause you distort the fukk out of everything.

Tiny was a negative defensively and inefficient offensively when he played with Bird. Who ever gave him MVP votes is a shockingly bad analyst and shouldn't have gotten the ability to vote. Tiny in his time in Boston was NOT CLOSE to HOF worthy and his peak was about a decade earlier.

Again, you completely ignored that he was 2nd-team All-NBA in the exact season we're talking about.

Tiny in 4 seasons with Bird 14/8/2 on 56% TS. This is in the era where according to YOU, 28/10/7 on 60% TS in a four year stretch isn't impressive because of the pace of play. So how is that not role player status?

You can't do context for shyt - no one is saying that Tiny was the GOAT in 1981 and no one said Bird was a role player in 1986.

Tiny only averaged 14 and 8 (on good shooting and keeping the turnovers low) because he was a point guard playing with Bird, Maxwell, Cowens, Ford, Carr, then Bird, Parish, McHale, Maxwell, and Ainge. His first year healthy again there were SEVEN guys on the Celtics averaging double-figures including 3 eventual HOFers and a Finals MVP, the next year there were 4 eventual HOFers, that Finals MVP, and then they added another future All-Star. On a team like that with Bird putting up 20+ and seven different guys averaging double figures, no real point guard is trying to get 20 points or dominate the ball. He played strong efficient basketball and spread the rock like he should, and was 2nd-team All-NBA and won a ring despite Bird playing like shyt, so obviously he was doing something right.

Parish only has 2 all NBA appearances his whole career and none before Boston. He was an ordinary All Star reserve before he got to the C's. 17/12/3 is what you're hyping up? After the Bird numbers I posted that you tried to discredit?

Wow, way to put yourself on blast.

You were hyping up 15-15-7 on 42% shooting (with only 2.6 of those rebounds being offensive) as if that was great all-around numbers worthy of a GOAT and not an extremely disappointing finals.

Now you're talking about 17-12 with 3 blocks on 50% shooting (with 3.5 of those rebounds being offensive) as if it's a bogus nothing statline.

I didn't call Parish a GOAT. But his line was better than Bird's in everything except assists - more points, more offensive boards, on better shooting. Even if you say the numbers are the same or similar, you've lost, because you're trying to call Bird a GOAT based on stats with no context while saying that Parish wasn't even Hall-worthy.

The '86 Pistons didn't have Dantley, their leading fukking scorer. They didn't have Rodman, their elite perimeter defender. The had a rookie Dumars. They were not the same team at all. And I'M the one ignoring context?

I didn't say the '86 Pistons were the same team, I didn't even talk about them. I said they '87 Pistons were INEXPERIENCED because they HADN'T WON ANYTHING yet. It doesn't matter who they added, most of their key players had never won a playoff series and it showed when going up against a far more experienced team.

Dr. J and Moses were all star starters in '85 on planet Earth. And if you disagree with the selections, who should have started over them? And they were both absolutely, unequivocally better than "HOFer" 1981 Tiny Archibald. Who the hell cares what happened the year before.

This has got to be the 34th time in this debate that you proved you are clueless to context. Moses and Dr. J (who did not make an All-NBA team that year, he lost out to Bernard King and Terry Cummings) were not going up against 1981 2nd-team All-NBA Tiny Archibald. They were going up against Bird, McHale, Parish, DJ and Ainge.

Parish outplayed Malone straight up and KEVIN MCHALE was the leading scorer that series. Bird only averaged 20ppg on 41.9% shooting and you're trying to make it like he deserves a cookie for winning on a stacked #1 seed against a #3 seed. In the deciding final game, Bird scored just 17 points on 6-18 shooting and the Celtics still won on the strength of 23 from DJ, 20 from Parish, and 17 from McHale along with interior defense holding Malone to just 13 points on 4-13 shooting.

Bird won because he had the better team, not because he played great. EVERY example you pull out exposes that further.

 

[GOAT]

Goddamn, I'm gonna have to reply one more time cause you distort the fukk out of everything.


Again, you completely ignored that he was 2nd-team All-NBA in the exact season we're talking about.




You can't do context for shyt - no one is saying that Tiny was the GOAT in 1981 and no one said Bird was a role player in 1986.

Tiny only averaged 14 and 8 (on good shooting and keeping the turnovers low) because he was a point guard playing with Bird, Maxwell, Cowens, Ford, Carr, then Bird, Parish, McHale, Maxwell, and Ainge. His first year healthy again there were SEVEN guys on the Celtics averaging double-figures including 3 eventual HOFers and a Finals MVP, the next year there were 4 eventual HOFers, that Finals MVP, and then they added another future All-Star. On a team like that with Bird putting up 20+ and seven different guys averaging double figures, no real point guard is trying to get 20 points or dominate the ball. He played strong efficient basketball and spread the rock like he should, and was 2nd-team All-NBA and won a ring despite Bird playing like shyt, so obviously he was doing something right.




Wow, way to put yourself on blast.

You were hyping up 15-15-7 on 42% shooting (with only 2.6 of those rebounds being offensive) as if that was great all-around numbers worthy of a GOAT and not an extremely disappointing finals.

Now you're talking about 17-12 with 3 blocks on 50% shooting (with 3.5 of those rebounds being offensive) as if it's a bogus nothing statline.

I didn't call Parish a GOAT. But his line was better than Bird's in everything except assists - more points, more offensive boards, on better shooting. Even if you say the numbers are the same or similar, you've lost, because you're trying to call Bird a GOAT based on stats with no context while saying that Parish wasn't even Hall-worthy.




I didn't say the '86 Pistons were the same team, I didn't even talk about them. I said they '87 Pistons were INEXPERIENCED because they HADN'T WON ANYTHING yet. It doesn't matter who they added, most of their key players had never won a playoff series and it showed when going up against a far more experienced team.




This has got to be the 34th time in this debate that you proved you are clueless to context. Moses and Dr. J (who did not make an All-NBA team that year, he lost out to Bernard King and Terry Cummings) were not going up against 1981 2nd-team All-NBA Tiny Archibald. They were going up against Bird, McHale, Parish, DJ and Ainge.

Parish outplayed Malone straight up and KEVIN MCHALE was the leading scorer that series. Bird only averaged 20ppg on 41.9% shooting and you're trying to make it like he deserves a cookie for winning on a stacked #1 seed against a #3 seed. In the deciding final game, Bird scored just 17 points on 6-18 shooting and the Celtics still won on the strength of 23 from DJ, 20 from Parish, and 17 from McHale along with interior defense holding Malone to just 13 points on 4-13 shooting.

Bird won because he had the better team, not because he played great. EVERY example you pull out exposes that further.

There's a HUGE gap between "doing something right" and making 2nd team all NBA at a weak position in the league at the time, and being a HOF level player. You CANNOT say with a straight fact that 1980-1983 Tiny Archibald was playing at a Hall of Fame level. That is just nonsense. He was a HOFer because of his career before Boston. Not a single thing he did in a C's uniform made him a HOFer

I didn't "hype up" Bird's '81 Finals series at all. Now you're making shyt up. Your main argument against him was "he averaged 15 on 42% in the Finals", all I did was give you the rest of the line.That was unquestionably an under performing series for Bird. And here you are comparing this single series line to Robert Parish's ENTIRE '79 season lol. That Parish season was worse than every Bird season of his entire career by a large margin.

You said the Pistons weren't the same in '87 as they were in '88 and you emphasized the fact that they lost in the first round previously. As if they had the same group of guys lol. The '87 season was the first year with Dantley and Rodman. What happened previous to that year is almost completely irrelevant. You can rely on that "inexperience" narrative all you want (that you conviently chose not to give the '80 Celtics when they lost to the Sixers in the ECF), the record and numbers show the teams were both great, championship contending teams. They were STILL inexperienced up against the Lakers in the Finals (who were also healthier than the '87 C's), but apparently that's a triumphant victory for Magic regardless. Oh, and go ahead and ignore the fact that a bad call literally robbed the Pistons of winning that series.

And they were going up against them with a great team in their own right. 58 wins, two all star starters, Andrew Toney, Bobby Jones, Chuck, etc. They were a title contender by every criteria. I'm not acting like Bird deserved shyt for winning that series. The whole reason I brought it up was because you acted like Magic went through a bunch of tough teams when he didn't face anybody with the championship pedigree out West that the Sixers and Pistons teams the C's faced had.