Who was considered the Goat before MJ [edit : Poll Added]

[GOAT]

During his 1979-1988 prime before he got hurt:

Bird in regular season: 25ppg on 51% from the field and 38% from three
Bird in the playoffs: 24ppg on 47.5% from the field and 35% from three

That's a big dropoff from someone who is supposed to be in the GOAT conversation, and pretty mediocre scoring totals overall for the free-wheeling 1980s. When you add in the fact that he was on a stacked team that often had a distinct advantage over its competition....why such a drop?

If Bird wasn't a White guy with mad confidence/swagger/trash talking game who happened to be on one of the most stacked teams in history, he wouldn't have been pumped up the way he was cause there were a ton of Black players (George Gervin, David Thompson, Adrian Dantley, Julius Erving, Bernard King, Alex English, Mark Aguirre, Dominique Wilkins) who were putting up ridiculous offensive numbers in that era. Bird was a better all-around player but he wasn't the devastating scorer that he's made out to be.




It does apply to Magic to a degree, but Magic has a number of caveats that help his case:

1. When KAJ went out that first season, Magic pulled up with one of the all-time great Finals performances with his back against the wall. Bird doesn't have any similar all-time games from an underdog role.

2. Magic has 5 titles against 3 different strong teams - the Sixers, Celtics, and Pistons. He had multiple Finals wins in series where his team wasn't at a distinct advantage where he played up and won. Bird just has 2 titles against outmatched Rockets teams plus the Tragic Johnson series.

3. Magic doesn't have the significant dropoff in the playoffs that Bird has.

I do think Magic can be a bit overrated. For me he's top-5 all-time but not top-3. But he proved more than Bird.





You're actually wrong that they weren't scoring as efficiently. And they did that without having McHale, Parish, DJ, Ainge, and Walton around them. You watch highlights from that era, the Celtics were often doubling and swarming against other team's stars, while Bird was generally played straight up all game cause all the other players were threats too.

I mean, if you argument is that Kelly Tripucka and Kiki Vandeweghe aren't as good all-around players as Bird, I agree. But if your argument is that Bird is an all-time GOAT because he averaged 28-10-6 in the regular season on good shooting numbers, then the fact that forgettable af players were in the same ballpark deserves to be mentioned.

Here are their 1983 numbers:

27-5-4 on 49-38-85 splits
27-5-3 on 55-29-88 splits
24-11-6 on 50-29-84 splits

Yep, that's Larry 3rd there. Bird manages more boards and slightly more assists, but actually has the inferior scoring and efficiency. And that was a career year for Tripucka but Kiki did basically the same shyt five years straight, including nearly 30ppg on 55% shooting the next year (something Bird never did).

I'm sorry, but pace was high and defenses were fukking weak in that era. Points, rebounds, and assists were easy to pile up (similar to the last 2 years but in fact pace was even HIGHER from 1979-1989 than it is today and defenses were weaker). Bird's regular season numbers look impressive today, but the fact that he was nowhere near the leaders in any of those categories and the fact that he fell off so much in the playoffs and rarely had a big stand-up win mean a lot to me.





Bird averaged just 2.6 offensive rebounds in 43 minutes a game. He wasn't even close to his teammate Cedric Maxwell (5 offensive boards a game) or his opponent Moses Malone (6.6 offensive boards/game), and Parish tied him despite playing 90 fewer minutes in the series than Bird did. Bird had barely more offensive boards than Billy Pautz or Bill Wliloughby.

So your argument is that Bird scoring just 15ppg on 42% shooting can be forgiven because he piled up defensive rebounds against skinny-ass Robert Reid who was more comfortable as a guard anyway?

Imagine if ANY other GOAT scored 8, 8, and 12 on 33% shooting in three consecutive Finals games and got a total pass for it without anyone ever mentioning it against him.

Bird is s career 24/10/6 on 56% TS in the regular season and a career 24/10/6 on 55% TS in the Playoffs. I don’t see where there’s a huge drop off there. My argument was that Bird averaged 28/10/7 on 50/40/90 for a four year stretch. Nobody else came close to doing that. And you’re yet to address A rookie Bird turning a 20 win team to a 60 win team. That’s kind of a significant point in this argument if you’re gonna say Bird was lucky to play on stacked teams.

 

[Reggie]

It's the two extra titles and the fact that he beat Bird twice in the Finals is what put him over Larry in people's eyes.

 

[steph_harden]

As others have said there wasn’t a unanimous GOAT. The older heads thought for so sure it was Russell because of his rings... Some argued Wilt’s numbers and the younger heads argued Kareem because he was historically dominant on every single level he played at..

 

[Professor Emeritus]

Bird is s career 24/10/6 on 56% TS in the regular season and a career 24/10/6 on 55% TS in the Playoffs. I don’t see where there’s a huge drop off there. My argument was that Bird averaged 28/10/7 on 50/40/90 for a four year stretch. Nobody else came close to doing that. And you’re yet to address A rookie Bird turning a 20 win team to a 60 win team. That’s kind of a significant point in this argument if you’re gonna say Bird was lucky to play on stacked teams.

Those career stats don't look too different because after Bird's injury he put up shytty regular season #'s for three years which pulled his averages down, but his playoff numbers weren't affected as much because he didn't go anywhere in the playoffs. I already showed you how big the dropoff was in those 1979-1988 years that his legacy is actually built on. A drop in scoring, nearly 4% drop in FG% and 3% drop in 3pt%. That's a big difference for a guy with a manufactured reputation of being "clutch".

You keep bragging about that four-year stretch where he averaged 28ppg on 50/40/90. Do you know what his playoff numbers for that same stretch were? Just 26ppg on 47% shooting and 36.6% from three and despite having one of the most stacked teams in history with 5 HOFers, only won one title (against a way overmatched Houston team that had 2nd-year Hakeem as their only star player).


The highest scoring season of Bird's career was 1988 with 29.9ppg on 53% shooting (one of only 3 times he scored 26ppg despite playing in a high-scoring era).

You know what he did in the postseason that year? Just 24.5ppg on 45% shooting.

How about in the ECF against the Pistons? 19.8ppg on 35% shooting.

Game 6 when they were down 3-2 and the season was on the line? 16 points on 4-17 shooting.

How do you explain that?



Also, that 1979 squad had won 30 games the previous year, not 20, and they had a BUNCH of talent.

HOF Larry Bird was already 23 in his rookie year, he was a well-developed player
HOF Tiny Archibald made the all-star game for the 5th time in Bird's rookie year
HOF Dave Cowens made the all-star game for the 8th time in Bird's rookie year
Cedric Maxwell was just 2 years from winning Finals MVP
Chris Ford was a solid guard
M.L. Carr was a solid forward who as added in the offseason.
Rick Robey was a solid backup center who had been added just a couple months before the previous season ended

That's THREE Hall of Famers playing at All-Star level and a future Finals MVP just for kicks with a deep supporting crew. They had a bad year in 1978 and switched coaches mid-season but were just were one piece from putting it together. Bird was 23 years old and already formed as a player, it wasn't like some 19yo walking in looking to develop. Adding 30 wins is huge but you talking like he was carrying scrubs when there was already a great lineup in place and they got to add an all-star to it without losing anyone.

What did they do in the playoffs though? Got wiped out by Dr. J and the Sixers (before they had even added Moses) 4-1 despite having home court advantage. Dr. J took Larry's lunch all series. Story of his career.

 

[GOAT]

Those career stats don't look too different because after Bird's injury he put up shytty regular season #'s for three years which pulled his averages down, but his playoff numbers weren't affected as much because he didn't go anywhere in the playoffs. I already showed you how big the dropoff was in those 1979-1988 years that his legacy is actually built on. A drop in scoring, nearly 4% drop in FG% and 3% drop in 3pt%. That's a big difference for a guy with a manufactured reputation of being "clutch".

You keep bragging about that four-year stretch where he averaged 28ppg on 50/40/90. Do you know what his playoff numbers for that same stretch were? Just 26ppg on 47% shooting and 36.6% from three and despite having one of the most stacked teams in history with 5 HOFers, only won one title (against a way overmatched Houston team that had 2nd-year Hakeem as their only star player).


The highest scoring season of Bird's career was 1988 with 29.9ppg on 53% shooting (one of only 3 times he scored 26ppg despite playing in a high-scoring era).

You know what he did in the postseason that year? Just 24.5ppg on 45% shooting.

How about in the ECF against the Pistons? 19.8ppg on 35% shooting.

Game 6 when they were down 3-2 and the season was on the line? 16 points on 4-17 shooting.

How do you explain that?



Also, that 1979 squad had won 30 games the previous year, not 20, and they had a BUNCH of talent.

HOF Larry Bird was already 23 in his rookie year, he was a well-developed player
HOF Tiny Archibald made the all-star game for the 5th time in Bird's rookie year
HOF Dave Cowens made the all-star game for the 8th time in Bird's rookie year
Cedric Maxwell was just 2 years from winning Finals MVP
Chris Ford was a solid guard
M.L. Carr was a solid forward who as added in the offseason.
Rick Robey was a solid backup center who had been added just a couple months before the previous season ended

That's THREE Hall of Famers playing at All-Star level and a future Finals MVP just for kicks with a deep supporting crew. They had a bad year in 1978 and switched coaches mid-season but were just were one piece from putting it together. Bird was 23 years old and already formed as a player, it wasn't like some 19yo walking in looking to develop. Adding 30 wins is huge but you talking like he was carrying scrubs when there was already a great lineup in place and they got to add an all-star to it without losing anyone.

What did they do in the playoffs though? Got wiped out by Dr. J and the Sixers (before they had even added Moses) 4-1 despite having home court advantage. Dr. J took Larry's lunch all series. Story of his career.

Again, I'm "bragging" about a 4 year stretch where he averaged 28/10/7 on 50/40/90. Something nobody else came close to doing. In the faster paced, "bad defense" era. Discrediting it as if its easy to do when nobody else came close is ridiculous. You're posting those Playoff numbers as if they're bad lol. Another way to frame it is 26/9/7 on 57% TS. Those are fantastic numbers.

only won one title (against a way overmatched Houston team that had 2nd-year Hakeem as their only star player).

That beat a Magic/Kareem led Lakers without HCA....in 5 games.

Again, you cannot bring up Bird's stacked teams in arguments against Magic Johnson, who played with stacked teams along with a GOAT candidate. Magic wasn't the best player on those early Laker teams. Larry Bird was never not the best player on his team.

Okay, they won 30 games instead of 20. Cool. They had one of the greatest turnarounds in NBA history with the addition of a single player. That completely shuts down your argument that Bird coasted on stacked teams. They were trash before he got there, and were an instant title contender afterwards. Enough said.

What did they do in the playoffs though? Got wiped out by Dr. J and the Sixers (before they had even added Moses) 4-1 despite having home court advantage. Dr. J took Larry's lunch all series. Story of his career.

Oh...you mean like the lowly 1986 Houston Rockets did to a prime Magic Johnson led Laker team?

 

[Big Mel]

Kareem had the crown but Bird & Magic made the league what it was. Set the stage for MJ.

 

[Raw Sauce]

When I was young I heard Kareem was the best but Dr. J was the dopest.

 

[Professor Emeritus]

In the faster paced, "bad defense" era. Discrediting it as if its easy to do when nobody else came close is ridiculous. You're posting those Playoff numbers as if they're bad lol. Another way to frame it is 26/9/7 on 57% TS. Those are fantastic numbers.

Those are BIrd's best four seasons and they're still inferior to LeBron's average playoff numbers from his entire 17-year career (29-9-7 on 58% TS), despite him playing in a slower era with superior defenses. LeBron has 6 different postseasons with 30+ppg (twice over 34), 5 different postseasons 60%+ TS% (twice 65% or higher), 7 times with 9+ rebounds (high 11.2) and 8 times 7+ assists (high 9). Yet you're talking like 26-9-7 on 57% TS is some amazing stat line for cherry-picking someone's four best seasons. It ain't if they're a GOAT, and that's even BEFORE we get to how much easier racking up stats was in the 1980s.

Perhaps you want to argue that Bird transcended his stats. But you're the one who tried to make it a stats argument. And for a GOAT in the playoffs, his stats aren't that impressive.

And you're skipping the part where Bird did that on absolutely stacked teams and yet only one 1 title in those 4 years.

That beat a Magic/Kareem led Lakers without HCA....in 5 games.

If you want to compare Bird's absolute best year on his most stacked team with one of the Lakers' worst years during Magic's reign, you've already lost the argument.

Celtics had 5 HOFers - Bird and McHale in their prime plus Parish and DJ near-prime and Walton 6th Man of the Year. Many people call it the most stacked team in history.
Magic only had a 39yo Kareem and Worthy in his very 1st All-Star season. Their #4 was a 24yo Byron Scott.

The Lakers were transitioning that year, it was a clear down year for them.

Again, you cannot bring up Bird's stacked teams in arguments against Magic Johnson, who played with stacked teams along with a GOAT candidate. Magic wasn't the best player on those early Laker teams. Larry Bird was never not the best player on his team.

Except Magic won Finals MVP in his very first championship and Bird lost it to Cedric Maxwell.

Magic won his first title with a legendary performance after Kareem got knocked out. Bird won his first title averaging 15ppg on 42% shooting and getting bailed out by teammates while facing a the worst Finals opponent in NBA history (a 40-42 squad).

You ain't helping your case.

Oh...you mean like the lowly 1986 Houston Rockets did to a prime Magic Johnson led Laker team?

Again, that was a down year for the Lakers, if you're comparing a Lakers' down year to one of the Celtics' best years, you've lost.

Have you even watched those games? This is Game 6 of the 1986 Finals, you should see it.



Things to notice:

1. Bird fades into the background. He's not the focus of the offense, he's rarely doubled. On a squad that stacked he's the leading scorer but they play him straight up as if he was just another player. Watch this game with the sound off and you'd never guess that it was a GOAT in one of his greatest moments.

2. Hakeem, meanwhile, is double-teamed and triple-teamed damn near every time he touches the ball. The Celtics defense respects Hakeem FAR more than the Rockets respect Bird.

3. The refs do love them some Celtics - being the White team in 1980s America had its advantages. Watch the ridiculous touch fouls they call on Hakeem and others right from the beginning. Hakeem, Sampson, Lloyd and Peterson all saw serious foul trouble this game (Hakeem had 5 fouls in just 37 minutes) while no one on the Celtics picked up more than 3 fouls in the game even though they hack the shyt out of Houston's rebounders and post men every time. All three players in Boston's frontcourt went to the line as much or more than Hakeem did. This was a tradition - the '84 Celtics won on the strength of massive free throw advantages (including 51 to 28 in the deciding game) and the refs putting the entire opposing team in foul trouble in that one as well.


Remember, this is one of Bird's greatest playoff games ever. He's playing with one of the most stacked teams ever against an outmatched opponent. He fills up the stat sheet. And yet....does that really look like a GOAT in his greatest moment to you?

 

[GOAT]

Those are BIrd's best four seasons and they're still inferior to LeBron's average playoff numbers from his entire 17-year career (29-9-7 on 58% TS), despite him playing in a slower era with superior defenses. LeBron has 6 different postseasons with 30+ppg (twice over 34), 5 different postseasons 60%+ TS% (twice 65% or higher), 7 times with 9+ rebounds (high 11.2) and 8 times 7+ assists (high 9). Yet you're talking like 26-9-7 on 57% TS is some amazing stat line for cherry-picking someone's four best seasons. It ain't if they're a GOAT, and that's even BEFORE we get to how much easier racking up stats was in the 1980s.

Perhaps you want to argue that Bird transcended his stats. But you're the one who tried to make it a stats argument. And for a GOAT in the playoffs, his stats aren't that impressive.

And you're skipping the part where Bird did that on absolutely stacked teams and yet only one 1 title in those 4 years.




If you want to compare Bird's absolute best year on his most stacked team with one of the Lakers' worst years during Magic's reign, you've already lost the argument.

Celtics had 5 HOFers - Bird and McHale in their prime plus Parish and DJ near-prime and Walton 6th Man of the Year. Many people call it the most stacked team in history.
Magic only had a 39yo Kareem and Worthy in his very 1st All-Star season. Their #4 was a 24yo Byron Scott.

The Lakers were transitioning that year, it was a clear down year for them.




Except Magic won Finals MVP in his very first championship and Bird lost it to Cedric Maxwell.

Magic won his first title with a legendary performance after Kareem got knocked out. Bird won his first title averaging 15ppg on 42% shooting and getting bailed out by teammates while facing a the worst Finals opponent in NBA history (a 40-42 squad).

You ain't helping your case.




Again, that was a down year for the Lakers, if you're comparing a Lakers' down year to one of the Celtics' best years, you've lost.

Have you even watched those games? This is Game 6 of the 1986 Finals, you should see it.



Things to notice:

1. Bird fades into the background. He's not the focus of the offense, he's rarely doubled. On a squad that stacked he's the leading scorer but they play him straight up as if he was just another player. Watch this game with the sound off and you'd never guess that it was a GOAT in one of his greatest moments.

2. Hakeem, meanwhile, is double-teamed and triple-teamed damn near every time he touches the ball. The Celtics defense respects Hakeem FAR more than the Rockets respect Bird.

3. The refs do love them some Celtics - being the White team in 1980s America had its advantages. Watch the ridiculous touch fouls they call on Hakeem and others right from the beginning. Hakeem, Sampson, Lloyd and Peterson all saw serious foul trouble this game (Hakeem had 5 fouls in just 37 minutes) while no one on the Celtics picked up more than 3 fouls in the game even though they hack the shyt out of Houston's rebounders and post men every time. All three players in Boston's frontcourt went to the line as much or more than Hakeem did. This was a tradition - the '84 Celtics won on the strength of massive free throw advantages (including 51 to 28 in the deciding game) and the refs putting the entire opposing team in foul trouble in that one as well.


Remember, this is one of Bird's greatest playoff games ever. He's playing with one of the most stacked teams ever against an outmatched opponent. He fills up the stat sheet. And yet....does that really look like a GOAT in his greatest moment to you?

We're not talking about Lebron. The discussion is Bird vs Magic. I'm not talking like that's an "amazing statline" at all. You brought it up as he shyt the bed in the Playoffs, when those are elite numbers on very good efficiency. When your main argument is in the Playoffs he "only" put up that statline, you don't have much of an argument.

Magic played on an "absolutely" stacked team, in a worse conference, with a GOAT contender, and wasn't the best player on his team in his early career.

Except Magic won Finals MVP in his very first championship and Bird lost it to Cedric Maxwell.

Magic won his first title with a legendary performance after Kareem got knocked out. Bird won his first title averaging 15ppg on 42% shooting and getting bailed out by teammates while facing a the worst Finals opponent in NBA history (a 40-42 squad).

You ain't helping your case.

Wait, so are you suggesting Bird wasn't the best player on the '81 Celtics while Magic WAS the best player on the '80 Lakers? No double talk or Juelzing, I want a yes or no answer to this. Because that will tell me all I need to know about your agenda here.

Can you stop being intentionally disingenuous here. Bird averaged 15/15/7 in the FINALS. Those were not his numbers for the '81 season OR the '81 Playoffs. You realize Iggy won a FMVP, right? Was he better than Steph on the 2015 Warriors?




You cannot dismiss things by saying "Oh that was a down year, that doesn't count". It absolutely counts lol. Your argument is so unbelievably hollow. You're nitpicking every bad Bird performance while making excuses for every bad Magic performance lol. I gave you the totality of his career regular season AND Playoff numbers and illustrated there was little to no drop off and you still wanna nitpick individual games and series for Bird while ignoring everything but the final results for Magic.

 

[Professor Emeritus]

Wait, so are you suggesting Bird wasn't the best player on the '81 Celtics while Magic WAS the best player on the '80 Lakers? No double talk or Juelzing, I want a yes or no answer to this. Because that will tell me all I need to know about your agenda here.

Bird was the best player when he joined the Celtics, yet underperformed so poorly in the Finals that he looked worse than the other players.

Magic was not the best player when he joined the Lakers, yet rose up to the occasion and looked like the best player when the season was on the line.

What is unclear or inaccurate about that?

Can you stop being intentionally disingenuous here. Bird averaged 15/15/7 in the FINALS. Those were not his numbers for the '81 season OR the '81 Playoffs. You realize Iggy won a FMVP, right? Was he better than Steph on the 2015 Warriors?

Yeah, there's no logical connection there and nothing you wrote disproves that Bird's performance in the Finals sucked compared to his regular seasons numbers.

You cannot dismiss things by saying "Oh that was a down year, that doesn't count". It absolutely counts lol. Your argument is so unbelievably hollow. You're nitpicking every bad Bird performance while making excuses for every bad Magic performance lol. I gave you the totality of his career regular season AND Playoff numbers and illustrated there was little to no drop off and you still wanna nitpick individual games and series for Bird while ignoring everything but the final results for Magic.

I didn't say it "didn't count". But if you want to claim that Bird struggling to beat an inferior Houston team while playing with one of the most stacked lineups of all time is a great achievement just because Magic lost to that team with a 39-year-old Kareem beside him, you've already lost the argument.

 

[Cadillac]

It's crazy how Wilt & Oscar have been completely written out of the argument without even doing anything.

that has to do with the addition of Kobe, Lebron, and duncan. And specifically Kobe and Lebron due to both of them being athletic wings used for click bait purposes by ESPN to make articles, convo segments, etc. to being compared to Jordan

its more lucrative for corporations to make those comparisons and discussions than with Jordan vs Wilt and Oscar.

especially with the obsession of rings, outside of old nikkas. Not many are gonna argue in favor with wilt or oscar because they will just see they have only 2 and 1 rings respectively and that only equals up to Jordan up to his first 3 peat.

whereas Kobe and Bron have tons of fans obviously and gonna cause for more discussion.

It's the two extra titles and the fact that he beat Bird twice in the Finals is what put him over Larry in people's eyes.

Yep, you can def argue and say Bird is more skilled given his ability to shoot, rebound, pass.

but thats not the end all be all to ATG and who is GOAT. Part of it is career accomplishments and winning. Magic being 2-1 in Finals and even 3-1 if you count that College championship game. Helped set the narrative of him being better.

It also helps that, he was part of leading his team to the Finals all the way into 1991, whereas Larry and Celts stopped going after 87 which is where they lost to the Lakers and Magic.

So magic, going to the finals for almost a entire decade(exception is the 81, and 86 finals) and into the 90s helps give the impression he was more dominant.

personally to me, They are very close. Only reason I give Magic the nod, is because of his catalog, and being able to help lead his teams to finals longer(people do this for Lebron so why not)

 

[GOAT]

Bird was the best player when he joined the Celtics, yet underperformed so poorly in the Finals that he looked worse than the other players.

Magic was not the best player when he joined the Lakers, yet rose up to the occasion and looked like the best player when the season was on the line.

What is unclear or inaccurate about that?




Yeah, there's no logical connection there and nothing you wrote disproves that Bird's performance in the Finals sucked compared to his regular seasons numbers.




I didn't say it "didn't count". But if you want to claim that Bird struggling to beat an inferior Houston team while playing with one of the most stacked lineups of all time is a great achievement just because Magic lost to that team with a 39-year-old Kareem beside him, you've already lost the argument.

Kareem averaged 33/13 with 5 blocks in the '80 Finals. Magic was not better than him. He won because Kareem got hurt and missed the Final game.

Yeah, there's no logical connection there and nothing you wrote disproves that Bird's performance in the Finals sucked compared to his regular seasons numbers.

Okay, and Magic was trash in the '84 Finals. I can nitpick individual series out of successful career while ignoring the totality too, but I choose not to because I don't have an agenda.

I didn't say it "didn't count". But if you want to claim that Bird struggling to beat an inferior Houston team while playing with one of the most stacked lineups of all time is a great achievement just because Magic lost to that team with a 39-year-old Kareem beside him, you've already lost the argument.

Bird didn't struggle to beat the Rockets. They won in 6 games in a series they led 2-0 and 3-1 in. Were in no danger of losing that series at any point. A 39 year old Kareem and a 24 year old Worthy. Both of which averaged over 20 in that Rockets series (with Kareem giving them 27/7/2). They still lost in 5 to that lowly Rockets team.

 

[Professor Emeritus]

Kareem averaged 33/13 with 5 blocks in the '80 Finals. Magic was not better than him. He won because Kareem got hurt and missed the Final game.

I said that Magic looked like the best player when the season was on the line. He put up 42-15-7 against the team that beat the Celtics easily, and he did it in a deciding game with Kareem out and his season on the line. Bird has never had a moment that nice.

Okay, and Magic was trash in the '84 Finals. I can nitpick individual series out of successful career while ignoring the totality too, but I choose not to because I don't have an agenda.

Magic looked like shyt in 1981 too. He definitely had his ups and downs. The difference is that he has fantastic moments with the odds against him to overcome the bad ones, repeatedly overcoming evenly matched or better teams. You've spent all this time talking and you haven't brought up anything on Bird's behalf except loading up regular season stats on a stacked team or putting up good-not-GOAT playoff numbers in losing efforts.

Bird didn't struggle to beat the Rockets. They won in 6 games in a series they led 2-0 and 3-1 in. Were in no danger of losing that series at any point.

Did you watch Game 6 that I just posted or not? Refs had to get the entire Rockets team in foul trouble to keep it from going 7. Rockets had better interior defense and yet the Celtics were allowed to be as physical as they wanted on the boards and lived on the line while Hakeem and company were getting called for ridiculous touch fouls.

A 39 year old Kareem and a 24 year old Worthy. Both of which averaged over 20 in that Rockets series (with Kareem giving them 27/7/2). They still lost in 5 to that lowly Rockets team.

They lost in 5 because Hakeem/Sampson combined for 51-20-6 and 6 blocks a game on average that series. In the deciding game they put up 59 points on 20-32 shooting in a two-point win. It was a joke to think that 39yo Kareem and 6'8" Kurt Rambis were going to be able to hang with them. Kareem got his offensively but at that age he couldn't defend Hakeem or Sampson and was constantly getting his pockets picked too (averaged 4 turnovers/game for the series including 7 in the decisive game).

Not to mention that the Rockets went to the line 40 times more than the Lakers did that series....but then get to the Finals against the Great White Celtics and they're going to the line 20 times LESS than their opponent, including a 44 to 28 deficit with serious foul trouble across the board in the deciding game. Hmmm.....

 

[murksiderock]

@GOAT @Rhakim @Cadillac all dropping some strong knowledge in here. For a fan that just loves talking about the sport, this is appreciated from all of you...

I guess I've settled on Magic and Bird being equals more or less, but I get why people favor Magic, given his head to head success on Bird. Still not sure if he was better player for player, but I understand the argument that can be made in Magic's favor, and the subtractions for Bird...

 

[GOAT]

I said that Magic looked like the best player when the season was on the line. He put up 42-15-7 against the team that beat the Celtics easily, and he did it in a deciding game with Kareem out and his season on the line. Bird has never had a moment that nice.




Magic looked like shyt in 1981 too. He definitely had his ups and downs. The difference is that he has fantastic moments with the odds against him to overcome the bad ones, repeatedly overcoming evenly matched or better teams. You've spent all this time talking and you haven't brought up anything on Bird's behalf except loading up regular season stats on a stacked team or putting up good-not-GOAT playoff numbers in losing efforts.




Did you watch Game 6 that I just posted or not? Refs had to get the entire Rockets team in foul trouble to keep it from going 7. Rockets had better interior defense and yet the Celtics were allowed to be as physical as they wanted on the boards and lived on the line while Hakeem and company were getting called for ridiculous touch fouls.




They lost in 5 because Hakeem/Sampson combined for 51-20-6 and 6 blocks a game on average that series. In the deciding game they put up 59 points on 20-32 shooting in a two-point win. It was a joke to think that 39yo Kareem and 6'8" Kurt Rambis were going to be able to hang with them. Kareem got his offensively but at that age he couldn't defend Hakeem or Sampson and was constantly getting his pockets picked too (averaged 4 turnovers/game for the series including 7 in the decisive game).

Not to mention that the Rockets went to the line 40 times more than the Lakers did that series....but then get to the Finals against the Great White Celtics and they're going to the line 20 times LESS than their opponent, including a 44 to 28 deficit with serious foul trouble across the board in the deciding game. Hmmm.....

Okay, and a single game sample size simply does not compare to an entire season/Playoff run. No matter how big the game. I posted Bird's regular season and Playoff numbers in totality, there is little drop off.

When did Magic ever overcome a superior team in the West? There was nobody on the Lakers level out West during their run. The Celtics had to contend with Sixers and Pistons teams with championship pedigree. A crippled Celtics team beat an elite Bad Boys Pistons in '87 right before their run to three straight Finals and two titles.

So now the Celtics won in '86 because the refs were on some white supremacy shyt?