Who was considered the Goat before MJ [edit : Poll Added]
- Thread starter bucks3115
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Nah, either beating shyt teams diminishes your legacy or it doesn’t. Which is it?
YoungMoneyCashMoneyBoy
Superstar
A team with hall of famer(s) that ran through other teams with hall of famers can't be a shyt team.Nah, either beating shyt teams diminishes your legacy or it doesn’t. Which is it?
A collegiate team with no future top draft picks or no draft picks at all, however, would be a shyt team. It's pretty simple if you're used to thinking. Difficult otherwise.
You're free to post the players kareem faced that made it to the nba. Or I can if all you're going to do is juelz. You can also post the HOFers MJ faced, but we already know how many he faced.
Let me break it down for you so you can understand
Your argument: Jordan’s better competition but winning less plus comparative stats/accolades >Kareem’s comparatively trash comp, similar stats and winning more titles
therefore when bron stans apply the exact same logic it should apply that
Lebrons comparatively much better opponents and similar stats but winning less titles> Jordan compratively trash opponents but winning more titles.
I’m literally just applying the exact precedent you set to a similar discussion. You’re arguing against yourself here.
YoungMoneyCashMoneyBoy
Superstar
Let me break it down for you so you can understand
Your argument: Jordan’s better competition but winning less plus comparative stats/accolades >Kareem’s comparatively trash comp, similar stats and winning more titles
therefore when bron stans apply the exact same logic it should apply that
Lebrons comparatively much better opponents and similar stats but winning less titles> Jordan compratively trash opponents but winning more titles.
I’m literally just applying the exact precedent you set to a similar discussion. You’re arguing against yourself here.
Folks get real quiet when you ask them who kareem faced. Here's who kareem faced:
Dayton
Don May
Bob Hooper
Dan Sadlier
Gene Klaus
Dan Obrovac
North Carolina
Larry Miller
Rusty Clark
Charlie Scott
dikk Gruber
Bill Bunting
Purdue
Rick Mount
Bill Keller
Herman Gilliam
Jerry Johnson
George Faerber
All-Plumber Teams
Now compare brons 3 teams he beat to Jordan’s from either 3 peat
Folks get real quiet when you ask them who kareem faced. Here's who kareem faced:
Dayton
Don May
Bob Hooper
Dan Sadlier
Gene Klaus
Dan Obrovac
North Carolina
Larry Miller
Rusty Clark
Charlie Scott
dikk Gruber
Bill Bunting
Purdue
Rick Mount
Bill Keller
Herman Gilliam
Jerry Johnson
George Faerber
All-Plumber Teams
YoungMoneyCashMoneyBoy
Superstar
Make another thread. This is a discussion about the GOAT and other GOATs, not bronNow compare brons 3 teams he beat to Jordan’s from either 3 peat
There’s nothing really to discuss. Any jordan Stan in here arguing jordan is the goat over Kareem collegiate wise is also conceding Bron has bested him NBA wise period.Make another thread. This is a discussion about the GOAT and other GOATs, not bron
YoungMoneyCashMoneyBoy
Superstar
Glad you've finally realized that.
Have I helped you finally realize how dumb you look in this thread?
Those stats can be put out of proportion a little bit because of how much easier those stats were to build back then. You're talking an era where guys like Kiki Vandewedghe and Kelly Tripucka could put up 25-30ppg for a season.
For me the knock against Bird was that he did everything with stacked teams against suspect opposition. His 3 titles came against two massively overmatched Houston teams (the 40-42 team that stumbled into the Finals and Hakeem's 2nd-year when he wasn't nearly ready) and then the "Tragic Johnson" series where the Lakers certainly would have won if Magic hadn't gift-wrapped the ending of multiple games in unprecedented collapses (and even then the Celts needed 50 free throws in each the last two to take it). His first title came with him only averaging 15ppg on 42% shooting and his next two were while playing with 3 other Hall of Famers in their prime (McHale, Parish, and DJ) plus filled out with solid help like Ainge and Walton.
Imagine being on a team so stacked that you could average 9ppg on 33% shooting over three straight Finals game and your team stills WINS 2 out of 3. And that was Bird's least stacked team.
People like to build up Bird's trash-talking and confidence, and him being the great white hope after a lack of prominent White stars might have helped "save" the NBA in a sense and made him to be more than he was. They don't want to talk about the fact that his great numbers tended to drop off in the playoffs. They don't want to talk about how for all the "clutch" talk, he has very few playoff game-winners or standout performances and used to consistently come up short in must-win games.
People want to put him over Magic, but I'm not sure if you don't put Dr. J in Bird's situation that he doesn't come out as good or better.
Bigblackted4
Superstar
Grandpa always said Wilt. Said Baylor was up there too.
GOAT
The bubble was fraudulent
How on Earth does the exact same logic not apply to Magic? He got drafted onto a team with the pre-MJ GOAT according to this poll. A rookie Bird turned a 20 win team to a 60 win team. Those other guys you mentioned weren't scoring as efficiently as Bird while also giving you 10 rebounds and 6-8 assists a night (and leading title contenders and champions).
Bird averaged 21/11/9 in the RS and 22/14/6 in the Playoffs on his first title team. 15 on 42% in the Finals, but also gave you 15 rebs, 7 asts, and 2 steals a night. I think that kinds makes up for an off shooting series.
Family Lives Matter
#FLM
Kobe
During his 1979-1988 prime before he got hurt:
Bird in regular season: 25ppg on 51% from the field and 38% from three
Bird in the playoffs: 24ppg on 47.5% from the field and 35% from three
That's a big dropoff from someone who is supposed to be in the GOAT conversation, and pretty mediocre scoring totals overall for the free-wheeling 1980s. When you add in the fact that he was on a stacked team that often had a distinct advantage over its competition....why such a drop?
If Bird wasn't a White guy with mad confidence/swagger/trash talking game who happened to be on one of the most stacked teams in history, he wouldn't have been pumped up the way he was cause there were a ton of Black players (George Gervin, David Thompson, Adrian Dantley, Julius Erving, Bernard King, Alex English, Mark Aguirre, Dominique Wilkins) who were putting up ridiculous offensive numbers in that era. Bird was a better all-around player but he wasn't the devastating scorer that he's made out to be.
1. When KAJ went out that first season, Magic pulled up with one of the all-time great Finals performances with his back against the wall. Bird doesn't have any similar all-time games from an underdog role.
2. Magic has 5 titles against 3 different strong teams - the Sixers, Celtics, and Pistons. He had multiple Finals wins in series where his team wasn't at a distinct advantage where he played up and won. Bird just has 2 titles against outmatched Rockets teams plus the Tragic Johnson series.
3. Magic doesn't have the significant dropoff in the playoffs that Bird has.
I do think Magic can be a bit overrated. For me he's top-5 all-time but not top-3. But he proved more than Bird.
I mean, if you argument is that Kelly Tripucka and Kiki Vandeweghe aren't as good all-around players as Bird, I agree. But if your argument is that Bird is an all-time GOAT because he averaged 28-10-6 in the regular season on good shooting numbers, then the fact that forgettable af players were in the same ballpark deserves to be mentioned.
Here are their 1983 numbers:
27-5-4 on 49-38-85 splits
27-5-3 on 55-29-88 splits
24-11-6 on 50-29-84 splits
Yep, that's Larry 3rd there. Bird manages more boards and slightly more assists, but actually has the inferior scoring and efficiency. And that was a career year for Tripucka but Kiki did basically the same shyt five years straight, including nearly 30ppg on 55% shooting the next year (something Bird never did).
I'm sorry, but pace was high and defenses were fukking weak in that era. Points, rebounds, and assists were easy to pile up (similar to the last 2 years but in fact pace was even HIGHER from 1979-1989 than it is today and defenses were weaker). Bird's regular season numbers look impressive today, but the fact that he was nowhere near the leaders in any of those categories and the fact that he fell off so much in the playoffs and rarely had a big stand-up win mean a lot to me.
So your argument is that Bird scoring just 15ppg on 42% shooting can be forgiven because he piled up defensive rebounds against skinny-ass Robert Reid who was more comfortable as a guard anyway?
Imagine if ANY other GOAT scored 8, 8, and 12 on 33% shooting in three consecutive Finals games and got a total pass for it without anyone ever mentioning it against him.
Bird in regular season: 25ppg on 51% from the field and 38% from three
Bird in the playoffs: 24ppg on 47.5% from the field and 35% from three
That's a big dropoff from someone who is supposed to be in the GOAT conversation, and pretty mediocre scoring totals overall for the free-wheeling 1980s. When you add in the fact that he was on a stacked team that often had a distinct advantage over its competition....why such a drop?
If Bird wasn't a White guy with mad confidence/swagger/trash talking game who happened to be on one of the most stacked teams in history, he wouldn't have been pumped up the way he was cause there were a ton of Black players (George Gervin, David Thompson, Adrian Dantley, Julius Erving, Bernard King, Alex English, Mark Aguirre, Dominique Wilkins) who were putting up ridiculous offensive numbers in that era. Bird was a better all-around player but he wasn't the devastating scorer that he's made out to be.
It does apply to Magic to a degree, but Magic has a number of caveats that help his case:
1. When KAJ went out that first season, Magic pulled up with one of the all-time great Finals performances with his back against the wall. Bird doesn't have any similar all-time games from an underdog role.
2. Magic has 5 titles against 3 different strong teams - the Sixers, Celtics, and Pistons. He had multiple Finals wins in series where his team wasn't at a distinct advantage where he played up and won. Bird just has 2 titles against outmatched Rockets teams plus the Tragic Johnson series.
3. Magic doesn't have the significant dropoff in the playoffs that Bird has.
I do think Magic can be a bit overrated. For me he's top-5 all-time but not top-3. But he proved more than Bird.
You're actually wrong that they weren't scoring as efficiently. And they did that without having McHale, Parish, DJ, Ainge, and Walton around them. You watch highlights from that era, the Celtics were often doubling and swarming against other team's stars, while Bird was generally played straight up all game cause all the other players were threats too.
I mean, if you argument is that Kelly Tripucka and Kiki Vandeweghe aren't as good all-around players as Bird, I agree. But if your argument is that Bird is an all-time GOAT because he averaged 28-10-6 in the regular season on good shooting numbers, then the fact that forgettable af players were in the same ballpark deserves to be mentioned.
Here are their 1983 numbers:
27-5-4 on 49-38-85 splits
27-5-3 on 55-29-88 splits
24-11-6 on 50-29-84 splits
Yep, that's Larry 3rd there. Bird manages more boards and slightly more assists, but actually has the inferior scoring and efficiency. And that was a career year for Tripucka but Kiki did basically the same shyt five years straight, including nearly 30ppg on 55% shooting the next year (something Bird never did).
I'm sorry, but pace was high and defenses were fukking weak in that era. Points, rebounds, and assists were easy to pile up (similar to the last 2 years but in fact pace was even HIGHER from 1979-1989 than it is today and defenses were weaker). Bird's regular season numbers look impressive today, but the fact that he was nowhere near the leaders in any of those categories and the fact that he fell off so much in the playoffs and rarely had a big stand-up win mean a lot to me.
Bird averaged just 2.6 offensive rebounds in 43 minutes a game. He wasn't even close to his teammate Cedric Maxwell (5 offensive boards a game) or his opponent Moses Malone (6.6 offensive boards/game), and Parish tied him despite playing 90 fewer minutes in the series than Bird did. Bird had barely more offensive boards than Billy Pautz or Bill Wliloughby.
So your argument is that Bird scoring just 15ppg on 42% shooting can be forgiven because he piled up defensive rebounds against skinny-ass Robert Reid who was more comfortable as a guard anyway?
Imagine if ANY other GOAT scored 8, 8, and 12 on 33% shooting in three consecutive Finals games and got a total pass for it without anyone ever mentioning it against him.