The Coli Where we rank Kyle Lowry over Jason Kidd.. Scust @malta

[Goatpoacher]

Here's the thing, a team's offensive ranking is mainly based through its main ball-handler/scorer (like you can attribute a team's defensive ranking to the defensive anchor), and yes while environmental, personnel and style factors need to be weighed into the equation - it gives you a general idea of what impact they had. If Kidd was as great of a playmaker and difference maker as you seem to think he was, his team wouldn't have offenses that were below average to the worst in a league in arguably the worst ever offensive era. Especially since Kidd was allowed to basically freelance his way through games.

Your assertion is not supported by your stated facts. The question is not whether inserting Kidd into the Nets caused them to be the greatest offense in the league, or top 5, the question can be broken down as follows:

1. How was the nets offense WITHOUT KIDD
2. Who, at that time, could you have plugged into the nets with better results.

Your comparison points are inapt. Focusing on comparing offensive rating overall for the team for that year or even comparing that nets team to this raptors team does not shed light on whether Lowry is better than Kidd.

Just to put this into perspective -

Even despite the Nets playing at the 9th fastest pace during 2002, they still had a comparable offense to the Rockets who played at the second to slowest pace - with players like Mobley, Cato, Kenny Thomas and Moochie (comparable personnel to the Nets) playing heavy minutes with Francis as the main-ballhandler.

That Kidd ran "fluid" offenses - that right there tells me you aren't qualified to speak on his game because you're just regurgitating casual fan talking points.

This is pure assertion backed up with self-absorbed insistence on your expertise. Also, please read above.

Nah I just rank/value players accurately and reasonably as I possibly can.

This same argument can be made for the offensively-inept PGs of today. This doesn't tell me anything other than you don't know how to properly evaluate talent and impact. When it comes to main ball-handlers/option scorers is their ability to generate offense for their team in an efficent manner - not how good of a passer they are, how smart they are or how good they are at finding players in the post/on the break/off-screens.

This is the problem with this board, they look too much at aesthetics of how the game is suppose to be played and not the results.

Aesthetics? Where in any of my comments in this thread did I focus on aesthetics?

Also, you and malta are making a huge logical error by not adjusting for the fact offenses were run differently back then. Such anachronistic reasoning borders on disingenuous.

Lowry was more of an offensive threat this season, than Kidd ever was (greater scorer and more efficent - this version of Lowry averaged 3.3 more points on the same amount of shots at Kidd's peak as a scorer) to go with playmaking that had his team generating 117 per 100 posessions while he was on court (prior to his injury last month).

Your main argument boils down to the following: Lowry is better because his team is better. Before you say this is an unfair reduction of your argument, this is your argument. You have failed to properly lay a foundation showing that Lowry is more valuable than Kidd to a team. Your attempts to supporting your assertion boil down to showing that the nets offense was not very good compared to the rest of the league AT THAT TIME, and that it is not very good compared to today's Raptors. Once again, this is disingenuous because the question is the impact of taking Lowry off the Raptors and Kidd off the Nets. .

A proper basis for comparison would be to weigh their individual numbers (mostly efficiency), team role/possession rate and how they influenced/impacted their team's offense against the tape; which would mean to go over a generous amount of early 00s Nets games and Raptors' games from this season.

You seem to have the time, go ahead :jjjjj:

 

[Houston911]

I don't understand this twilight zone bullshyt going on in this thread. I'm in here agreeing with @canstop and @houston911 and disagreeing with @Malta and @zbo's deep thoughts.

I can understand Malta hates JKIDD type point guards. But taking Lowry over Kidd is saying, "I hate SUV's so I'd rather drive a prius than a range rover".

Whats the beef with me?

I dont name call with you and @Bilz for like the last 2 years

 

[OG Talk]

I don't understand this twilight zone bullshyt going on in this thread. I'm in here agreeing with @canstop and @houston911 and disagreeing with @Malta and @zbo's deep thoughts.

I can understand Malta hates JKIDD type point guards. But taking Lowry over Kidd is saying, "I hate SUV's so I'd rather drive a prius than a range rover".

His logic is pretty much

"I don't like pass first point guards that can't shoot"

"I'd much rather have a shoot first point guard that can't shoot"

 

[Art Barr]

You're saying a bunch of nothing in this post. You keep talking about "facts" but so far I've seen none; just long winded posts that don't shed any light on either player.

Oh I can post the timeline comparison to fully clown you, easy

I just don't have to cause you and Malta so offbrand and wrong with this shyt I don't have to.
As Lowry has no dominating fact in his career to questik Kidd or his legacy as a player.
You are the only egghead software analytic lame in here.
Trying to quote bullshyt regular season analytics for j Kidd who has regular season, college, prep and NBA post season fscrs that shyt all over Lowry.

nikka egghead software failed as a business.
just like you and your analytics in this thread.


Art Barr

 

[waltthizzney]

act like kyle didnt get run outta of memphis and houston for being a snake brahs

 

[Art Barr]

One of the worst threads I've seen here (and that's saying something).
This forum is full of idiotic shyt now... I joined SOHH in 2000.
Millennials

Is this thread supposed to be a troll job of the old shyt on j Kidd, his child and woman beating past.

All I know it was done in poor comparative taste.

Malta, zbo, whomever else take yo l, breh.

Art Barr

 

[Deafheaven]

If this a real thread

I've read every post and still am not sure

 

[cKondomsucK6]

Y'all seeing this shyt on ESPN ..

Lowry texted Tyron lue to watch the okc Warriors game with him

 

[Goatpoacher]

Whats the beef with me?

I dont name call with you and @Bilz for like the last 2 years

I forgot, sorry

You're good people

 

[Black Ball]

This thread has me flabbergasted. You have to believe that a player that's proven to be great throughout his career in most circumstances, will figure out a way to impact the game in a greater fashion than a here today gone tomorrow marginal all-star player.

I respect @Malta opinion on B-Ball almost unanimously, but I can't get with this at all. Sub in Kidd for Lowry, and he finds a way to improve this Raptors team. Cleveland still gonna whoop on them in the end though.

Has @Walt weighed in on this yet

 

[Gravity]

Prior to his injury last month, he was averaging 22 points on 15 shots and had Toronto as a top-5 offense for pretty much the entire season. He was arguably the best guard in the East. He performed better this season than Kidd did at any point during his prime seasons. At no point of Kidd's career did he prove himself to be more of an offensive threat.

That stat boy geek shyt doesn't fly. You can't judge players just on stats and you certainly can't compare players from different eras using stats without putting them in context. I don't care what his reg season stats are, we can see how good he is(isn't) watching him play. Dude's reg season numbers are inflated and the proof of this is how they fall off dramatically come playoffs time. They goes for him and that entire team. at them being a top 5 offense when they feature 2 volume shooting guards that can't shoot.

Save the excuses too. Dude has repeatedly said that he's not injured and he hasn't shown any signs of injury. He hasn't favored that elbow one bit out there on the court.

That's not what I said. I said the 90s Bulls and Magic were the only teams that were definitively better than this Raptors squad. Perhaps you're mistaking me for saying they were better than the other teams (Pistons, Cavs etc etc) as if that meant they were up there with the Magic because they were better than those teams.

Nope, you said that they were just as good or better than that Magic team. The only reason that I remember is that it was such an outrageous comment. You're lucky that this site is shyt and I can't pull the thread.

00000000000000000000000000000022


He said,...whut?!?!?!?!!!!
I can't believe anyone capes for this pickup ball era over the old guard even in kidd's new Gen mix with the old guard.

Kidd is one of the last high IQ era players from the exact draft where the low IQ era exactly began.

Yet, you have posters, @Malta to zbo's wack thoughts saying bullshyt and then overprocessing a player from an even more inept lower IQ era.
Where we watch college basketball and international play continued on the pro level with players with lower iq's and more soft rules to enable them to actually put the ball in the basket.
Of which we saw Lowry not ever do on even kidd's level and kidd was not known as having a robust offensive game.
Which was dwarfed by kidd's highest prodigy like IQ ij the low ball era and a one of a kind player for that era off just sheer excellence in bball IQ for just starters.

Then, in a lesser era Lowry does not have nearly any hardware on any level or accolades like kidd also garnered immediately as a collegiate to pro player.

Yeah, we talk about kidd being a drunk, his ex wife, his child has heinously been talked about on here dating back now to the .
Yet and still in that,...
Kidd is above Lowry period.

This is one of those if you ain't got ring arguments stfu type situations for real.
All cause kidd shyt's on Lowry by pure facts, in timeline comparison alone.

Not to mention, we just seen this nikka, lowry be immature less than sixteen hours ago.

At least we know kidd acted a fool over toni braxton and was like nineteen or so,....lowry is acting like this and we don't know and won't give him the benefit of the doubt for his behavior.
When he been in the league a decade.

This comparison is like saying you would rather have Chris Childs over j kidd and nobody is taking Childs globally over kidd, ever.
There is no fact to validate taking Lowry over kidd, period.





Art Barr

This shyt is bizarro world Art. Cats are actually doubling down on the dumb shyt even after being thoroughly checked. Can't respect that.

 

[Kobes Two Jerseys]

@Malta tell me you didn't say this. Not my Malta.

Dumbcans last series got dude going mental.

 

[Goatpoacher]

This thread has me flabbergasted. You have to believe that a player that's proven to be great throughout his career in most circumstances, will figure out a way to impact the game in a greater fashion than a here today gone tomorrow marginal all-star player.

I respect @Malta opinion on B-Ball almost unanimous, but I can't get with this at all. Sub in Kidd for Lowry, and he finds a way to improve this Raptors team. Cleveland still gonna whoop on them in the end though.

Has @Walt weighed in on this yet

That's what I don't get. These are two usually excellent posters who are sharing an opinion that's completely incomprehensible Even if Kidd were half as good as most people think, he's still twice as good as Lowry.

 

[cKondomsucK6]

Yes they would be worse today, not as bad as the Nets of course, but they wouldn't win the amount of games they did back then in today's league. And keep in mind the Spurs offenses gradually got better and better as the seasons went on (minus 04), whereas the Nets went backwards.

Just to put it into perspective -

That 2002 Spurs team was Duncan, a 36yo D-Rob (who could barely average double digits), Steve Smith, Antonio Daniels, Malik Rose, and a 19yo Parker and they won 58 games - the Thunder won 55 games this season and knocked out a superior Spurs team out of the playoffs.

okc has been a bad matchup for the spurs for years now,
playoffs and regular season

 

[Fani Willis fan]

DeRozan is a legitimate star IMO. But Lowry?
Solid player? Yes.Star??? Nah