The Coli Where we rank Kyle Lowry over Jason Kidd.. Scust @malta

[Gravity]

That's not what I said. I said the 90s Bulls and Magic were the only teams that were definitively better than this Raptors squad.

The Spurs, Cavs and OKC would all be title contenders in 1996, and the Raptors would only be slightly behind the Magic as a tier two squad.

Saying that this Raptors team would only be slightly behind that Shaq-Penny Magic team is just as absurd as saying Lowry>>>Kidd. Face it dude, you don't really know what you're talking about

 

[Houston911]

I forgot, sorry

You're good people

Likewise breh

 

[Walt]

Has @Walt weighed in on this yet

I'm not even sure I'd take Lowry over Charlie Ward and Chris Childs right now.

 

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

His logic is pretty much

"I don't like pass first point guards that can't shoot"

"I'd much rather have a shoot first point guard that can't shoot"

That's not my logic at all.

Why are you taking my argument completely out of context? Did you even read my posts at all?

 

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

I watched Kidd with the Suns, Nets, and Mavs. I saw things very differently.

Well since you think he ran "fluid" offenses, quite clearly you didn't see them correctly. Anybody that believes that, doesn't know what they're talking about.

Your post can be reduced to, "I am a basketball, Jkidd expert, you are not."

It's a case of you not willing to entertain another side because your mind has already been made up since the very beginning. Of course my posts are going to appear like that to you., you're not willing to reason, at all.

 

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

The problem here is that folk think how Lowry has been playing lately is how he's been performing all season before his injury (which has hampered him ever since). If you had been watching him play REGULARLY this season, y'all wouldn't think this was an absurd position to take.

 

[OG Talk]

That's not my logic at all.

Why are you taking my argument completely out of context? Did you even read my posts at all?

I wasn't talking about you..

 

[Damnshow]

Wait a minute,....
nikka Melo ain't never had no coach that could ever get him anywhere.
Even when that team did get somewhere they were doomed to fail.
All because standard x's and o's and actual bball pedigree and George Karl does not even really exist.

As Karl is just as and more dim witted than don nelson.
except nelson has a hardware to backup his ineptitude and style.

If Melo is coached by someone who knows what they are doing Melo is worth his weight in gold.


Art Barr

I agree with this post, george karl is one of the biggest coaching frauds in nba history. The fact that this dumbass was saving gary payton's energy not letting him to defend MJ till they got to 0-3 and karl was like fukk it do what you want....while gary payton winning defensive player of the year title that year....that fact alone should have sent karl coaching some shytty ass european team for the rest of his life.

shyt I would even take mike d'antoni over this fraud cause mike at least was effective on offense, he was just most of the time a victim to shytty ass team management aka coaching for jim buss, dolan, and bytchass sarver. Meanwhile karl couldnt get past 1st round with kemp and gary or melo and AI (who had his best career fg% while playing in denver)

 

[Damnshow]

The problem here is that folk think how Lowry has been playing lately is how he's been performing all season before his injury (which has hampered him ever since). If you had been watching him play REGULARLY this season, y'all wouldn't think this was an absurd position to take.

that's the problem of a lot of posters in here because it's hard to understand if they are serious or they are just trolling. kyle lowry carried his team to at least few wins in these playoffs, especially that game 3 when valanciunas got injured, but as usual the posters use a few game overreaction and turn this into a very big argument. I even saw some a$$hole saying mark jackson was a better player than lowry when mark jackson was always a role player caliber baller except two seasons when rick pittino was the knicks coach and he told players to shoot more threes, the tactics that almost beat MJ's bulls.

I got problem with lowry not giving enough looks for JV but god damn someone like mark jackson would never score that well like lowry.

 

[TrebleMan]

I respect Malta as a poster when it comes to basketball knowledge too. Dude is like thecoli's Haralabos.

But man, that comment was almost one of those: "It takes a lifetime to build a reputation, and 20 seconds to destroy one" moments.

Breh rarely slips like that.

 

[Gravity]

that's the problem of a lot of posters in here because it's hard to understand if they are serious or they are just trolling. kyle lowry carried his team to at least few wins in these playoffs, especially that game 3 when valanciunas got injured, but as usual the posters use a few game overreaction and turn this into a very big argument. I even saw some a$$hole saying mark jackson was a better player than lowry when mark jackson was always a role player caliber baller except two seasons when rick pittino was the knicks coach and he told players to shoot more threes, the tactics that almost beat MJ's bulls.

I got problem with lowry not giving enough looks for JV but god damn someone like mark jackson would never score that well like lowry.

He's not scoring well you stupid fukk. You talk about him carrying the team to a win or 2 this playoffs when he's shooting a garbage ass 36% for the playoffs which is his career playoff average. What about all the games that his teammates have carried his bum ass? What about all the games that he's shot them out of? Dude is a historically bad playoff performer and you're acting like cats are cherry picking games. Shut the fukk up.

 

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

Your assertion is not supported by your stated facts. The question is not whether inserting Kidd into the Nets caused them to be the greatest offense in the league, or top 5, the question can be broken down as follows:

1. How was the nets offense WITHOUT KIDD
2. Who, at that time, could you have plugged into the nets with better results.

I've just listed his teams' offensive rankings in each season he was in NJ - they were below average to near worst in the league - those are the facts. I've given evidence to show how his inefficiency and reluctance to score had an effect on those very offenses:

it shrinks the floor and gives his teammates less room to work with
teammates have heavier and regular defensive attention to deal with
less fluidity and less opportunities to develop rhythm and momentum - regular scoring droughts
one less constant scoring option - direct effect on how many points the team scores
less mismatchup opportunities to take advantage of because players aren't being forced to help on the ball-handler
less defensive breakdowns; giving the opposing defense more belief, power and momentum when defending the offense
team adopts identity of main ball-handler/option
teammates are forced to generate more points for themselves when main ball-handler isn't looking to score

These are all observations I took from going over the tape of Kidd's game years after the fact (and looking at PGs who aren't capable scorers in general), after I was truly cognizant of how the game works.

This is why someone like Chris Paul has always managed to run great, fluid offenses that were amongst the best in the league -- no matter the personnel. Because to go along with his passing ability he was a constant and efficent threat to score (all in a general sense); defenses didn't have the luxury of playing 5v4 like they did with Kidd. Working on an extremity here - take Curry and all the defensive attention he receives from being a threat to score and being efficent when doing so and how this opens up everything else on offense - now imagine what the Warriors offense would be like if all those things didn't exist and you'll start to see where I'm coming from with this.

Lowry's best scoring season (prior to injury last month) - 22.0 ppg on 59.8 TS% (15.6 shots per game), team had a 117 ORTG while on court
Kidd's best scoring season - 18.7 ppg on 52.6 TS% (15.6 shots per game), team had a 106 ORG while on court

The fact that Lowry proved himself to be a greater and more efficent scorer than Kidd ever did, should tell you that my position on this isn't an unreasonable one. Most of the things the Nets offense suffered from with Kidd not being a high-level scorer and threat, the Raptors didn't with Lowry.

Your comparison points are inapt. Focusing on comparing offensive rating overall for the team for that year or even comparing that nets team to this raptors team does not shed light on whether Lowry is better than Kidd.

Actually it does, because when you start digging deeper into why the Raptors had a top-5 offense this season and last, and the Nets had below average to one of the worst (season after season) you'll start to see why. The Raptors offense would be average if Lowry scored in similar vein and regularity as Kidd did. It was because he was aggressive in looking for his shot, a threat of being one and more efficent than Kidd that made the Raptors produce at a high level on the offensive end. That alone doesn't prove he performed better than Kidd, and of course like I've mentioned personnel, environmental, and style must be weighed into the equation when comparing how they compare to their respective oppositions during that season but it gives you a general idea of my position.

The only way you'll truly see where I'm coming from is if you watched those Nets games again (and more of them) and watched the Raptors play this season.

Aesthetics? Where in any of my comments in this thread did I focus on aesthetics?

It's been the basis of your counter argument. Saying Kidd ran fluid offenses, and believing the Raptors just run isos with a few pics thrown in, rather than looking at the results and how many pp100p each team scored. Reminds me of how dudes claim Melo was a better scorer than LeBron because of they way he scored, rather than looking at how many points each player averaged.

Also, you and malta are making a huge logical error by not adjusting for the fact offenses were run differently back then. Such anachronistic reasoning borders on disingenuous.

Not at all.

I'm looking at how Kidd generated offense for his team, and even if we take the lining of offenses being run different back then compared to today - Kidd the all-encompassing, he-makes-his-teammates-better, mensa BBIQ, all-time great PG still couldn't even manage to lead his offense to produce points that was above league average at the time.

This supposed all-time great floor general in his prime couldn't even lead his team to having an above average offense ONCE, in one of the worst offensive periods in the history of basketball.

Your main argument boils down to the following: Lowry is better because his team is better.

Nah, and I don't think you've been paying attention if you think it is.

Before you say this is an unfair reduction of your argument, this is your argument. You have failed to properly lay a foundation showing that Lowry is more valuable than Kidd to a team.

Perhaps you'll find clarity in my points above.

Your attempts to supporting your assertion boil down to showing that the nets offense was not very good compared to the rest of the league AT THAT TIME, and that it is not very good compared to today's Raptors. Once again, this is disingenuous because the question is the impact of taking Lowry off the Raptors and Kidd off the Nets.

It's less that and how their skillsets, mentalities, individual productivity/#s contributed and affected their team's offense and really dispelling this myth of how you think Kidd ran "fluid" offenses. Before you see my view on Lowry being better this season than Kidd ever was, I must knock your stance on Kidd back down to its true size. Not the one that you've seemed to carry with your since childhood.

 

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

He's not scoring well you stupid fukk. You talk about him carrying the team to a win or 2 this playoffs when he's shooting a garbage ass 36% for the playoffs which is his career playoff average. What about all the games that his teammates have carried his bum ass? What about all the games that he's shot them out of? Dude is a historically bad playoff performer and you're acting like cats are cherry picking games. Shut the fukk up.

Prior to his injury last month -

Lowry's best scoring season (prior to injury last month) - 22.0 ppg on 59.8 TS% (15.6 shots per game), team had a 117 ORTG while on court
Kidd's best scoring season - 18.7 ppg on 52.6 TS% (15.6 shots per game), team had a 106 ORG while on court

His injury has not only hampered his ability to remain efficent, but it's fukking with his confidence because he can't seem to get over it; leading him to going through all this other shyt because he doesn't know what to do.

 

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

@<<TheStandard>> (I know you said you'd stay outta this discussion) and @Consumed, interested to hear your thoughts on this - even if they are brief.

 

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

Saying that this Raptors team would only be slightly behind that Shaq-Penny Magic team is just as absurd as saying Lowry>>>Kidd. Face it dude, you don't really know what you're talking about

So you're basically admitting you lied about me saying they were just as good as the Magic?