The Coli Where we rank Kyle Lowry over Jason Kidd.. Scust @malta

[Jplaya2023]

At their peaks, shyt ah you can make an argument for a # of them: Nash, Payton, Stockton, Hardaway, Billups, Parker.

lol the only one you can make an argument for peak to peak is stockton and GP. prime jason kidd is clearly better than nash, tim hardawat, billups and parker.

But my statement was who would you take over kidd in those years you were touting those stats for. Thats why we say some guys you can't begin to measure what they bring by arbitrary stats

 

[William F. Russell]

@Gil Scott-Heroin has singlehandedly destroyed whatever semblance of credibility he had with his posting in this thread.

Can't wait for the Warriors to catch that repeat fade and have this autistic phaggot go on another hiatus.

How has this clown not been banned yet? He had the WOAT posting in this subforum, which is saying quite a bit

 

[Ineedmoney504]

This is legit the worse thread in the coli

 

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

how about we take it from the horse's mouth huh?

according to them.. they are tracking the INDIVIDUAL PLAYER

so yeah... the NBA had it right when they gave him defensive all teams 9 times...

and all NBA 5 times.. he was impacting the game POSITIVELY... if you score more than your cost your team... your doing good.:

Once again, that's not how it works. Individual DRTG isn't based on how many points you cost your team. That's the inherent issue with generalized defensive metrics. It doesn't take it account the points you directly give up, like ORTG takes into account how many points you actually score.

Calculating Individual Offensive and Defensive Ratings | Basketball-Reference.com
Offensive Rating
In Dean's words, "Individual offensive rating is the number of points produced by a player per hundred total individual possessions. In other words, 'How many points is a player likely to generate when he tries?'"
The basic building blocks of the Offensive Rating calculation are Individual Total Possessions and Individual Points Produced. The formula for Total Possessions is broken down into four components: Scoring Possessions, Missed FG Possessions, Missed FT Possessions, and Turnovers.

Defensive Rating
Just as Oliver's Offensive Rating represents points produced by the player per 100 possessions consumed, his Defensive Rating estimates how many points the player allowed per 100 possessions he individually faced while on the court.

The core of the Defensive Rating calculation is the concept of the individual Defensive Stop. Stops take into account the instances of a player ending an opposing possession that are tracked in the boxscore (blocks, steals, and defensive rebounds), in addition to an estimate for the number of forced turnovers and forced misses by the player which aren't captured by steals and blocks.

The formula for Stops is:

Why the hell did you leave out the formula that details what a "Stop" is classified as, after I just specifically told you what it does?

The formula for Stops is:

• Stops = Stops1 + Stops2

where:

• Stops1 = STL + BLK * FMwt * (1 - 1.07 * DOR%) + DRB * (1 - FMwt)
• FMwt = (DFG% * (1 - DOR%)) / (DFG% * (1 - DOR%) + (1 - DFG%) * DOR%)
• DOR% = Opponent_ORB / (Opponent_ORB + Team_DRB)
• DFG% = Opponent_FGM / Opponent_FGA
• Stops2 = (((Opponent_FGA - Opponent_FGM - Team_BLK) / Team_MP) * FMwt * (1 - 1.07 * DOR%) + ((Opponent_TOV - Team_STL) / Team_MP)) * MP + (PF / Team_PF) * 0.4 * Opponent_FTA * (1 - (Opponent_FTM / Opponent_FTA))^2

Also necessary is the calculation of Stop%, which is the rate at which a player forces a defensive stop as a percentage of individual possessions faced (essentially the inverse of Floor%, but for defenders):

• Stop% = (Stops * Opponent_MP) / (Team_Possessions * MP)

With those numbers in hand, individual Defensive Rating can be computed:

• DRtg = Team_Defensive_Rating + 0.2 * (100 * D_Pts_per_ScPoss * (1 - Stop%) - Team_Defensive_Rating)

where:

• Team_Defensive_Rating = 100 * (Opponent_PTS / Team_Possessions)
• D_Pts_per_ScPoss = Opponent_PTS / (Opponent_FGM + (1 - (1 - (Opponent_FTM / Opponent_FTA))^2) * Opponent_FTA*0.4)

• Out of necessity (owing to a lack of defensive data in the basic boxscore), individual Defensive Ratings are heavily influenced by the team's defensive efficiency. They assume that all teammates are equally good (per minute) at forcing non-steal turnovers and non-block misses, as well as assuming that all teammates face the same number of total possessions per minute.

It basically only gathers an individual's box score stats (defensive rebounds, steals and blocks), than adds the team's defensive rebounds, steals and blocks and then add the opponents FG%, offensive rebounds and FTs. Things that aren't central to what the individual player is doing on defense, but just how many DREB, steals and blocks he has. It doesn't tell you how many points are scored on Kidd, or how many shots he contested/adjusted or directly forcing a player to give up the ball or force a tough shot.

 

[KRiLL (+)]

why yall get Gil started? Stat Gawd going ham...

 

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

lol the only one you can make an argument for peak to peak is stockton and GP. prime jason kidd is clearly better than nash, tim hardawat, billups and parker.

He's not clearly better than those players at their peaks at all.

But my statement was who would you take over kidd in those years you were touting those stats for. Thats why we say some guys you can't begin to measure what they bring by arbitrary stats

i) You say this like all stats aren't arbitrary.
ii) Just because a player has a better ORTG doesn't necessarily mean they're the better player, offensive player, or it could be a case where it's only one season where they did have a better ORTG
iii) The point of even referencing those ORTG is to show that Kidd wasn't this transcendent floor general/'someone who makes the players around him better' like he's made out to be. It shows that he wasn't more productive than his peers during that time, let alone compare him to PGs who actually ran all-time great offenses.

Folk refer to Kidd as being to run these great offenses, now how could that be when he wasn't even running better offenses than most of his peers during his prime?

 

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

Kidd wasn't a knockdown shooter from distance but he was far more respectable than Ricky Rubio or Rajon Rondo....this thread is getting ridiculous

Of course he was a better shooter/scorer than both Rubio and Rondo, but the principles remain the same. Why does this need spelling out?

 

[William F. Russell]

why yall get Gil started? Stat Gawd going ham...

This nikka ain't a stat gawd


This dude doesn't even know how to properly read and apply stats.


Word is that clown makes up his own stats/statistical categories and passes them off as facts for his convenience.

I really don't understand how anybody can take dude seriously

 

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

This nikka ain't a stat gawd


This dude doesn't even know how to properly read and apply stats.


Word is that clown makes up his own stats/statistical categories and passes them off as facts for his convenience.

I really don't understand how anybody can take dude seriously

Even got dudes logging into their alias throwin shots.

 

[William F. Russell]

Of course he was a better shooter/scorer than both Rubio and Rondo, but the principles remain the same. Why does this need spelling out?

Dude, almost EVERY fukkING POSTER IN THIS THREAD has proven you and that other joker to be incorrect in your position. nikkas been trying to offer you rope but you're clutching onto that shovel and are digging yourself into a deeper hole.

 

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

Dude, almost EVERY fukkING POSTER IN THIS THREAD has proven you and that other joker to be incorrect in your position. nikkas been trying to offer you rope but you're clutching onto that shovel and are digging yourself into a deeper hole.

Except nobody has posted a rebuttal. I don't know what the fukk you're reading in this thread. You clearly came into this thread with your mind already made up.

 

[KRiLL (+)]

Even got dudes logging into their alias throwin shots.

who's alias is it?

 

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

@Jplaya2023 the post with the rank/numbers of PGs ORTGs that you quoted is different to what is being argued over the last few pages. Those stats you quoted are "the amount of points a team scores per 100 possessions based on the player being on the floor" . It basically means those players who were ranked above Kidd were on teams whose offenses scored more points per 100 possessions while they were on the floor. It doesn't directly tell you how many points they contributed to the offense, just how many points the team scored when they were on the floor (per 100 p).

 

[Poitier]

Of course he was a better shooter/scorer than both Rubio and Rondo, but the principles remain the same. Why does this need spelling out?

Jason Kidd shot 34 % on roughly 5 attempts per game from 01-07.......you aren't sagging off him like a Rubio or Rondo. Not close.

 

[I AM WARHOL]

@Malta you really say this?