The Coli Where we rank Kyle Lowry over Jason Kidd.. Scust @malta

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

Jason Kidd shot 34 % on roughly 5 attempts per game from 01-07.......you aren't sagging off him like a Rubio or Rondo. Not close.

While not to the same degree, teams still did give Kidd a shooting cushion on the regular. Teams still did treat him as if he wasn't going to score, but defended him as if he was going to pass. It was really 33.6% on 4.5 shots from behind the arc - I could easily say it was roughly 4 attempts per game [in jest]. It goes beyond his 3-pt attempts/%, it's about his reluctance to score and not being efficient on the low volume of shots he did take. Dude was scared to put pressure on the defense and drive becuse he was a bad FT shooter. How can y'all argue that he had played with terrible offensive players, yet not acknowledge he should've taken on more of a scoring role, not only to make their offense better, but to attract defensive attention so those 'terrible offensive players' on his team could have more room to work with when they did get the ball.

Kidd basically made his teammates worse on offense by not being a threat to score by not taking it upon himself to collapse defenses to give them open shots and easier scoring opportunities.

@No Homo

A question for you - do you think that the Nets role players during the early to mid 00s would've had more open shots if Kidd was a constant threat to score; forcing opposition defenders to leave their man more often to help on him?

 

[Malta]

@Malta you really say this?

What this thread is built around is me saying I'd rather have the Raptors roster than the Nets, I said I'd rather have Lowry than Kidd, Biyombo than MaCculloch, DeMar rather than Jefferson etc. The dude who made it was trying to say the 49-33 Nets were better than any team in the East last year


I don't like pass first PGs, never have and never will, only exception is Magic.

 

[Flywin Lannister]

@Malta said lowry > kidd


kidd is a top 10 point guard of all time with 3 finals appearances and 1 title

Can @Malta be banned for this?

I'm serious.

Kidd is a better coach than Kyle Lowry is a basketball player.

That is not hyperbole, that is fact.

Kidd is a better coach, than Lowry is a basketball player.

Player vs player.. come on..

 

[Malta]

Can @Malta be banned for this?

I'm serious.

Kidd is a better coach than Kyle Lowry is a basketball player.

That is not hyperbole, that is fact.

Kidd is a better coach, than Lowry is a basketball player.

Player vs player.. come on..

Fire up the permaban poll, if you don't get enough votes, you leave, if I get voted out I leave.


Deal?

 

[Poitier]

While not to the same degree, teams still did give Kidd a shooting cushion on the regular. Teams still did treat him as if he wasn't going to score, but defended him as if he was going to pass. It was really 33.6% on 4.5 shots from behind the arc - I could easily say it was roughly 4 attempts per game [in jest]. It goes beyond his 3-pt attempts/%, it's about his reluctance to score and not being efficient on the low volume of shots he did take. Dude was scared to put pressure on the defense and drive becuse he was a bad FT shooter. How can y'all argue that he had played with terrible offensive players, yet not acknowledge he should've taken on more of a scoring role, not only to make their offense better, but to attract defensive attention so those 'terrible offensive players' on his team could have more room to work with when they did get the ball.ers during the early to mid 00s would've had more open shots if Kidd was a constant threat to score; forcing opposition defenders to leave their man more often to help on him?

This is an argument against the Net's bad roster construction, not against Kidd.

Kidd's strength are apparent and his value on a poorly constructed roster are clear. I'm not docking him because he isn't superman.

Lowry has had the perfect rosters built around him that allow him to play to his strengths and still can't produce results. I'm done acknowledging this nonsense.

 

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

This is an argument against the Net's bad roster construction, not against Kidd..

This doesn't even make any sense whatsoever. You can't blame the roster for Kidd not being a threat to score. In fact it's quite the opposite, there's no excuses for him not to be scoring at a high rate. He didn't have players on the team who dominated the ball or who were chuckers. He had complete offensive freedom to do what he wanted on those squads. So answer me why didn't look to score/shoot more? What was stopping him? Those squads had terrible offenses, so why didn't he take it upon himself to score more to fix those issues?

Kidd's strength are apparent and his value on a poorly constructed roster are clear. I'm not docking him because he isn't superman.

Again, this doesn't make any sense. Horrible deflections that don't layer your argument at all.

Lowry has had the perfect rosters built around him that allow him to play to his strengths and still can't produce results. I'm done acknowledging this nonsense.

This is not true at all.

i) Lowry hasn't had the perfect rosters built around him. He plays with a SG who's incapable of catching and shooting. Lowry has to go out of his way to give up the ball to him and play off it. How many PGs in this league would be able to play next to a SG who needs the ball in his hands to be effective and is average at best on the defensive end? His team without him is perhaps the best 3-pt shooting team in the league. He plays with a soft ass, inconsistent 5 who has bad hands and can't guard the PnR.

The rosters he plays on have been far from perfect. It basically only works because of Lowry's versatility and offensive ability.
ii) Lowry can't produce results? He's averaged 22 ppg on 60 TS% (last two seasons) and led a top-5 offense for the last three seasons. How the fukk isn't that producing results? That's better than anything Kidd ever produced on the offensive end.

You're done acknowleding it because I keep poking holes in your argument.

 

[Poitier]

This doesn't even make any sense whatsoever. You can't blame the roster for Kidd not being a threat to score.

Sure I can.

A roster that requires Jason Kidd to be a primary scorer = poorly constructed.

Not reading the rest of your nonsense. Lowry has had the privilege of playing with shooters, rim protectors, post scorers, finishers, and other playmakers. Only a fool would argue otherwise.

 

[CantStop]

Is this seriously still a thing?

 

[I AM WARHOL]

What this thread is built around is me saying I'd rather have the Raptors roster than the Nets, I said I'd rather have Lowry than Kidd, Biyombo than MaCculloch, DeMar rather than Jefferson etc. The dude who made it was trying to say the 49-33 Nets were better than any team in the East last year


I don't like pass first PGs, never have and never will, only exception is Magic.

Fair enough. I don't like Lowry because of his playoff performances but otherwise I think Kidd and most pass first PGs are extremely overrated

 

[G-Zeus]

Once again, that's not how it works. Individual DRTG isn't based on how many points you cost your team. That's the inherent issue with generalized defensive metrics. It doesn't take it account the points you directly give up, like ORTG takes into account how many points you actually score.



Why the hell did you leave out the formula that details what a "Stop" is classified as, after I just specifically told you what it does?

The formula for Stops is:

• Stops = Stops1 + Stops2

where:

• Stops1 = STL + BLK * FMwt * (1 - 1.07 * DOR%) + DRB * (1 - FMwt)
• FMwt = (DFG% * (1 - DOR%)) / (DFG% * (1 - DOR%) + (1 - DFG%) * DOR%)
• DOR% = Opponent_ORB / (Opponent_ORB + Team_DRB)
• DFG% = Opponent_FGM / Opponent_FGA
• Stops2 = (((Opponent_FGA - Opponent_FGM - Team_BLK) / Team_MP) * FMwt * (1 - 1.07 * DOR%) + ((Opponent_TOV - Team_STL) / Team_MP)) * MP + (PF / Team_PF) * 0.4 * Opponent_FTA * (1 - (Opponent_FTM / Opponent_FTA))^2

Also necessary is the calculation of Stop%, which is the rate at which a player forces a defensive stop as a percentage of individual possessions faced (essentially the inverse of Floor%, but for defenders):

• Stop% = (Stops * Opponent_MP) / (Team_Possessions * MP)

With those numbers in hand, individual Defensive Rating can be computed:

• DRtg = Team_Defensive_Rating + 0.2 * (100 * D_Pts_per_ScPoss * (1 - Stop%) - Team_Defensive_Rating)

where:

• Team_Defensive_Rating = 100 * (Opponent_PTS / Team_Possessions)
• D_Pts_per_ScPoss = Opponent_PTS / (Opponent_FGM + (1 - (1 - (Opponent_FTM / Opponent_FTA))^2) * Opponent_FTA*0.4)

• Out of necessity (owing to a lack of defensive data in the basic boxscore), individual Defensive Ratings are heavily influenced by the team's defensive efficiency. They assume that all teammates are equally good (per minute) at forcing non-steal turnovers and non-block misses, as well as assuming that all teammates face the same number of total possessions per minute.

It basically only gathers an individual's box score stats (defensive rebounds, steals and blocks), than adds the team's defensive rebounds, steals and blocks and then add the opponents FG%, offensive rebounds and FTs. Things that aren't central to what the individual player is doing on defense, but just how many DREB, steals and blocks he has. It doesn't tell you how many points are scored on Kidd, or how many shots he contested/adjusted or directly forcing a player to give up the ball or force a tough shot.

fukk you saying? the formula has minus, divided multiplications and to the power of...

why pretend you understand????

there are formulas inside of formulas....

your missing about 200 lines of explanation to add up to what it adds..

to simplify all this.. the website itself tell you.. it all comes down to how much points are scored against you while you play....

and worse, the part you bolded means when no information are available .... Out of necessity (owing to a lack of defensive data in the basic boxscore),


your a funny guy... you think you can jedi mind trick your way out of this?

 

[Dwight Howard]

14/3/6

in the playoffs..

close this dumbass thread NOW

 

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

14/3/6

in the playoffs..

close this dumbass thread NOW

You didn't even post the right numbers you rockbrain.

 

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

Sure I can.

A roster that requires Jason Kidd to be a primary scorer = poorly constructed.

This doesn't answer my question. Why didn't Kidd take on more of a scoring role? You said (and I quote) he's a "steroid shot" to any offense, so why didn't he try to put his teams in a better position of winning on the offensive end by scoring more and on better efficiency, when they had such a "poorly contsructed" team?

 

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

fukk you saying? the formula has minus, divided multiplications and to the power of...

why pretend you understand????

there are formulas inside of formulas....

your missing about 200 lines of explanation to add up to what it adds..

to simplify all this.. the website itself tell you.. it all comes down to how much points are scored against you while you play....

Except it doesn't. Look at the formula. It only takes into account a player's DREB, steals and blocks - not how many points a player directly gives up on the defensive end. Because there isn't a metric that can tell how many points a player is directly/indidrectly responsible for giving up. How hard is this for you to understand? It even specifically tells you it only takes shyt from the box score -

• Out of necessity (owing to a lack of defensive data in the basic boxscore), individual Defensive Ratings are heavily influenced by the team's defensive efficiency. They assume that all teammates are equally good (per minute) at forcing non-steal turnovers and non-block misses, as well as assuming that all teammates face the same number of total possessions per minute.

Look at the formula, and then look at the explanation of what they're saying. They're only taking what happeneds a player's box score for their DRTG. You can't look at a box score and work out how many points are scored against that player. Do you realize how batshyt insane that sounds?

and worse, the part you bolded means when no information are available .... Out of necessity (owing to a lack of defensive data in the basic boxscore),


your a funny guy... you think you can jedi mind trick your way out of this?

Breh. Do you have a difficulty with learning or something? Serious question.

 

[Dwight Howard]

You didn't even post the right numbers you rockbrain.

oh im sorry 15/3/6