The Coli Where we rank Kyle Lowry over Jason Kidd.. Scust @malta

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Miami316 said:
He averaged 8 points on that team while averaging less than 30 minutes per game. He shot 36% from the field and 34% from deep, which is nothing special considering what that team had on it's roster. A team with six other players who could shoot from distance at an effective rate (Terry, Butler, Peja, Stevenson, Barea, Nowitzki). More importantly, this discussion is about what Kidd was at his peak, and he didn't develop a jumper until late in his career once his peak was over.
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Kidd took the most 3's on the team in the playoffs and shot 37%. While being 8th in the RS in assists, and fourth in the playoffs. He was instrumental to their offense:manny:
 
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houston911 said:
What I mean is if you told Kyle Lowry he was better than Kidd he would think he was on an episode of pinked my brother
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If I explained to him that I was merely comparing them at their respective peaks (not their careers), and I backed it up with the fact he was on another level as a scorer (avg 22 ppg on 60 TS% across two seasons), that he was arguably the best periemter defender on Team USA in the '16 Olympics and still one of the better defensive PGs in the league, that he led a top-5 offense for two seasons straight and I used tape of him scoring efficiently in every full-court and half-court situation against all types of defenders, which I then compared to Kidd's best season(s), he would walk out the room like.......

:ohhh::ohhh::ohhh::ohhh::ohhh:
 
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Gil Scott-Heroin said:
If I explained to him that I was merely comparing them at their respective peaks (not their careers), and I backed it up with the fact he was on another level as a scorer (avg 22 ppg on 60 TS% across two seasons), that he was arguably the best periemter defender on Team USA in the '16 Olympics and still one of the better defensive PGs in the league, that he led a top-5 offense for two seasons straight and I used tape of him scoring efficiently in every full-court and half-court situation against all types of defenders, which I then compared to Kidd's best season(s), he would walk out the room like.......

:ohhh::ohhh::ohhh::ohhh::ohhh:
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You could talk the panties off a nun :wow:













































But I stopped going to church after I read "roots" in 6th grade :sas2:

If prime Kidd played in this era he'd be a better scorer though

Better spacing
More emphasis on being able to shoot the 3 so he would have worked on that more

Kidd was a better defender and playmaker also
 
<<TheStandard>>

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Gil Scott-Heroin said:
I went to Nets/Knicks games regularly when I was young'n (Kidd was one of my favorite players growing up), and I watched the league religiously back then too. Futhermore when I first identified that Rondo was a fraud (roughly about 8-9 years ago) - I thought to myself, hang on a minute - his play is strangely familiar. Then I went over a ton of tape of old Nets games and some Suns games when Kidd was playing, and much to my surprise the very thing I criticized Rondo for, Kidd was guilty of too. Now obviously Kidd was a better player than Rondo ever was, but the principles of why I saw Rondo's game for what it was, applied to Kidd. That started a chain of events where I started looking at all my childhood sporting heroes in a different light. One that wasn't of nostalgia and revisionism, but one that was drenched completely in reality.

It was at the point, I realized I really didn't know the game like I thought I did. And ever since I've been trying to look for the answers - I don't always have them but it doesn't stop me from looking. I don't like to generalize but most of the folk on this board are still stuck where I was a decade ago in terms of viewing the game. Still at square one.
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I can definitely relate to this.

I no longer see Kobe and A.I. the same way I used to. :mjcry:
 
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Gil Scott-Heroin said:
:laff:

Except it doesn't. Look at the formula. It only takes into account a player's DREB, steals and blocks - not how many points a player directly gives up on the defensive end. Because there isn't a metric that can tell how many points a player is directly/indidrectly responsible for giving up. How hard is this for you to understand? It even specifically tells you it only takes shyt from the box score -

  • Out of necessity (owing to a lack of defensive data in the basic boxscore), individual Defensive Ratings are heavily influenced by the team's defensive efficiency. They assume that all teammates are equally good (per minute) at forcing non-steal turnovers and non-block misses, as well as assuming that all teammates face the same number of total possessions per minute.
Look at the formula, and then look at the explanation of what they're saying. They're only taking what happeneds a player's box score for their DRTG. You can't look at a box score and work out how many points are scored against that player. Do you realize how batshyt insane that sounds?

:dead:

:snoop:

Breh. Do you have a difficulty with learning or something? Serious question.
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is it really hard to go to the website and put your mouse over the DRTG field???? all you have to do is go to the website... hover your mouse over any player's DRTG and they will give you a simple definition

its their fukkin website
 
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G-Zeus said:
is it really hard to go to the website and put your mouse over the DRTG field???? all you have to do is go to the website... hover your mouse over any player's DRTG and they will give you a simple definition

its their fukkin website
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I advise you to go back and read every single word detailing DRTG (explanation/formula/notes) on that site. And then come back to me.
 
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Gil Scott-Heroin said:
I advise you to go back and read every single word detailing DRTG (explanation/formula/notes) on that site. And then come back to me.
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Glossary | Basketball-Reference.com



Duckers gone duck
U prolly signed to buckshot..
 
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G-Zeus said:
Glossary | Basketball-Reference.com



Duckers gone duck
U prolly signed to buckshot..
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Corny.

Stop playing dumb, you know very well I'm talking about the individual DRTG. The irony of you claiming that I'm ducking when you go and purposefully post something else, something that we weren't even arguing about.


Defensive Rating
Just as Oliver's Offensive Rating represents points produced by the player per 100 possessions consumed, his Defensive Rating estimates how many points the player allowed per 100 possessions he individually faced while on the court.

The core of the Defensive Rating calculation is the concept of the individual Defensive Stop. Stops take into account the instances of a player ending an opposing possession that are tracked in the boxscore (blocks, steals, and defensive rebounds), in addition to an estimate for the number of forced turnovers and forced misses by the player which aren't captured by steals and blocks.

The formula for Stops is:

  • Stops = Stops1 + Stops2
where:

  • Stops1 = STL + BLK * FMwt * (1 - 1.07 * DOR%) + DRB * (1 - FMwt)
  • FMwt = (DFG% * (1 - DOR%)) / (DFG% * (1 - DOR%) + (1 - DFG%) * DOR%)
  • DOR% = Opponent_ORB / (Opponent_ORB + Team_DRB)
  • DFG% = Opponent_FGM / Opponent_FGA
  • Stops2 = (((Opponent_FGA - Opponent_FGM - Team_BLK) / Team_MP) * FMwt * (1 - 1.07 * DOR%) + ((Opponent_TOV - Team_STL) / Team_MP)) * MP + (PF / Team_PF) * 0.4 * Opponent_FTA * (1 - (Opponent_FTM / Opponent_FTA))^2
Also necessary is the calculation of Stop%, which is the rate at which a player forces a defensive stop as a percentage of individual possessions faced (essentially the inverse of Floor%, but for defenders):

  • Stop% = (Stops * Opponent_MP) / (Team_Possessions * MP)
With those numbers in hand, individual Defensive Rating can be computed:

  • DRtg = Team_Defensive_Rating + 0.2 * (100 * D_Pts_per_ScPoss * (1 - Stop%) - Team_Defensive_Rating)
where:

  • Team_Defensive_Rating = 100 * (Opponent_PTS / Team_Possessions)
  • D_Pts_per_ScPoss = Opponent_PTS / (Opponent_FGM + (1 - (1 - (Opponent_FTM / Opponent_FTA))^2) * Opponent_FTA*0.4)
Notes:

  • In a later chapter of Basketball on Paper, Oliver emphasized that Offensive Ratings shouldn't be viewed in a vacuum. Introducing a concept he called "Skill Curves", he acknowledged that a player's ORtg needed to be judged in conjunction with his Usage Rate, a measure of how big a role the player fills in his team's offense. The bigger the role, the more difficult it is to maintain a high ORtg; the smaller the role, the easier it is to be highly efficient. Because of this, Oliver stressed that a player's ORtg should primarily be compared to those of other players in a similar role.
  • Out of necessity (owing to a lack of defensive data in the basic boxscore), individual Defensive Ratings are heavily influenced by the team's defensive efficiency. They assume that all teammates are equally good (per minute) at forcing non-steal turnovers and non-block misses, as well as assuming that all teammates face the same number of total possessions per minute.
  • Perhaps as a byproduct, big men tend to have the best Defensive Ratings (although Oliver notes that history's best defensive teams were generally anchored by dominant defensive big men, suggesting that those types of players are the most important to a team's defensive success). A corollary to this is that excellent perimeter defenders who don't steal the ball a lot — for instance, Joe Dumars or Doug Christie — are underrated defensively by DRtg, and are prone to look only as good as their team's overall defense performs.

Can your dumbass not see that a stop in this formula is through an individual's box score? Defensive rebounds, steals and blocks. It doens't take into acount "how much points are scored against you while you play...." like you think it does.

Individual ORTG = is basically how many points you score
Individual DRTG = is basically how many steals, blocks and defensive rebounds you get + your team's contributions through the box score on defense

You can't use Bball Ref's individual DRTG in the manner that you did, because the formula is heavily weighted by the contributions of the team (not just the individual), and it only takes into account the individual's blocks, steals and rebounds - not many points that individual stops the opposition team from scoring and/or how many points are scored against that individual.

This is all just simple shyt. And it shouldn't need this breakdown if you actually read it properly.
 
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Gil Scott-Heroin said:
Corny.

Stop playing dumb, you know very well I'm talking about the individual DRTG. The irony of you claiming that I'm ducking when you go and purposefully post something else, something that we weren't even arguing about.


Defensive Rating
Just as Oliver's Offensive Rating represents points produced by the player per 100 possessions consumed, his Defensive Rating estimates how many points the player allowed per 100 possessions he individually faced while on the court.

The core of the Defensive Rating calculation is the concept of the individual Defensive Stop. Stops take into account the instances of a player ending an opposing possession that are tracked in the boxscore (blocks, steals, and defensive rebounds), in addition to an estimate for the number of forced turnovers and forced misses by the player which aren't captured by steals and blocks.

The formula for Stops is:

  • Stops = Stops1 + Stops2
where:

  • Stops1 = STL + BLK * FMwt * (1 - 1.07 * DOR%) + DRB * (1 - FMwt)
  • FMwt = (DFG% * (1 - DOR%)) / (DFG% * (1 - DOR%) + (1 - DFG%) * DOR%)
  • DOR% = Opponent_ORB / (Opponent_ORB + Team_DRB)
  • DFG% = Opponent_FGM / Opponent_FGA
  • Stops2 = (((Opponent_FGA - Opponent_FGM - Team_BLK) / Team_MP) * FMwt * (1 - 1.07 * DOR%) + ((Opponent_TOV - Team_STL) / Team_MP)) * MP + (PF / Team_PF) * 0.4 * Opponent_FTA * (1 - (Opponent_FTM / Opponent_FTA))^2
Also necessary is the calculation of Stop%, which is the rate at which a player forces a defensive stop as a percentage of individual possessions faced (essentially the inverse of Floor%, but for defenders):

  • Stop% = (Stops * Opponent_MP) / (Team_Possessions * MP)
With those numbers in hand, individual Defensive Rating can be computed:

  • DRtg = Team_Defensive_Rating + 0.2 * (100 * D_Pts_per_ScPoss * (1 - Stop%) - Team_Defensive_Rating)
where:

  • Team_Defensive_Rating = 100 * (Opponent_PTS / Team_Possessions)
  • D_Pts_per_ScPoss = Opponent_PTS / (Opponent_FGM + (1 - (1 - (Opponent_FTM / Opponent_FTA))^2) * Opponent_FTA*0.4)
Notes:

  • In a later chapter of Basketball on Paper, Oliver emphasized that Offensive Ratings shouldn't be viewed in a vacuum. Introducing a concept he called "Skill Curves", he acknowledged that a player's ORtg needed to be judged in conjunction with his Usage Rate, a measure of how big a role the player fills in his team's offense. The bigger the role, the more difficult it is to maintain a high ORtg; the smaller the role, the easier it is to be highly efficient. Because of this, Oliver stressed that a player's ORtg should primarily be compared to those of other players in a similar role.
  • Out of necessity (owing to a lack of defensive data in the basic boxscore), individual Defensive Ratings are heavily influenced by the team's defensive efficiency. They assume that all teammates are equally good (per minute) at forcing non-steal turnovers and non-block misses, as well as assuming that all teammates face the same number of total possessions per minute.
  • Perhaps as a byproduct, big men tend to have the best Defensive Ratings (although Oliver notes that history's best defensive teams were generally anchored by dominant defensive big men, suggesting that those types of players are the most important to a team's defensive success). A corollary to this is that excellent perimeter defenders who don't steal the ball a lot — for instance, Joe Dumars or Doug Christie — are underrated defensively by DRtg, and are prone to look only as good as their team's overall defense performs.

Can your dumbass not see that a stop in this formula is through an individual's box score? Defensive rebounds, steals and blocks. It doens't take into acount "how much points are scored against you while you play...." like you think it does.

Individual ORTG = is basically how many points you score
Individual DRTG = is basically how many steals, blocks and defensive rebounds you get + your team's contributions through the box score on defense

You can't use Bball Ref's individual DRTG in the manner that you did, because the formula is heavily weighted by the contributions of the team (not just the individual), and it only takes into account the individual's blocks, steals and rebounds - not many points that individual stops the opposition team from scoring and/or how many points are scored against that individual.

This is all just simple shyt. And it shouldn't need this breakdown if you actually read it properly.
Click to expand...
:Juelz gif:

Disregard black on white texts breh..
 
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