Can Muslims and Christians both be right?

[ellessij]

Jesus fulfilled over 300 prophecies and even the religious leaders could not catch him. If He did speak just one they could have trapped Him.

He was trapped. Nailed. Left for dead. Juuuust sayyyying.

 

[I.AM.PIFF]

I think thus far we have been civil. I've treated people with respect. These are hard but TRUE questions. I've dealt with questions for years but I have not lost patience when I'm asked the same question for the 3,000s time.

The issue still remains that in the Koran Allah said he gave the gospel. That is not in dispute.
Why then do people say the Bible has been corupted? I only use the KJV which is from the Textus Receptus which dates back to the 1st century. It is the most abundant document from that time period and back with over 5,000+ individual copies.

Even still by claiming the Bible is corrupted you are admitting that Allah can't keep his word preserved as he said it was revealed by himself.

The Koran CONFIRMS the Bible. This is not in dispute (as it is written in the Koran). Why do you then not believe the Bible?

I wasn't addressing you with my "civil" comment, but rather it was Quaterback who's been the only a$$hole so far.

By your own admission, you recognized that it has been writtedn and changed by men and the bible had many versions. So, how can it be the words of God as described in the Quran when it contradicts it?

The Quran confirm the teachings of Jesus (PBUH) which are continued in the Quran, and rejects the notion of him being God or God's son, or the trinity, the concept of original sin..etc.

I've already adressed the word of God in my previous post.

The Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke & John) were written within 18-60 years of Jesus' death by those who were witnesses to the events or, got their information from those who were witnesses to the events.

Muhammad died in 632 CE. The first biography (Siratul Rasu'allah) about him isn't written until 765 CE, 133 years later, by Ibn Ishaq. We don't have any of those writings and are dependent upon his student Ibn Isham's writings in 833 CE. 201 years later.

I believe that 18 - 60 years is less time than 133 - 201 years.
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But "Siratul Rasu'allah" isn't a holy text, nor does anyone consider it as God's word. You explicitely said that the Gospels were written by men and probaby isn't God's word. You also recognized that the bible contained a lot of changes and historians agree that it has been altered, by mistake or on purpose by scribes.

 

[Thsnnor]

He was trapped. Nailed. Left for dead. Juuuust sayyyying.

That is a great point you made. If God is real there must be a punishment for sin. Jesus was sinless and took the full punishment of sin that was not His.

 

[ellessij]

That is a great point you made. If God is real there must be a punishment for sin. Jesus was sinless and took the full punishment of sin that was not His.

How do you know Jesus was sinless? Because the Bible tells you so?

 

[Thsnnor]

I wasn't addressing you with my "civil" comment, but rather it was Quaterback who's been the only a$$hole so far.

By your own admission, you recognized that it has been writtedn and changed by men and the bible had many versions. So, how can it be the words of God as described in the Quran when it contradicts it?

The Quran confirm the teachings of Jesus (PBUH) which are continued in the Quran, and rejects the notion of him being God or God's son, or the trinity, the concept of original sin..etc.

I've already adressed the word of God in my previous post.



But "Siratul Rasu'allah" isn't a holy text, nor does anyone consider it as God's word. You explicitely said that the Gospels were written by men and probaby isn't God's word. You also recognized that the bible contained a lot of changes and historians agree that it has been altered, by mistake or on purpose by scribes.

The one thing I don't agree with is MEN changing God's word (mainly the vatican) with all these other bible versions. Did you know in the last ~150 years over 200+ bible versions have been made?

If that is true then why did Allah tell Mohammed if he had doubts to go to the Jews and Christians to confirm what Allah has previously revealed? If not the gospels then did Allah send him on a wild goose chase?

 

[Thsnnor]

How do you know Jesus was sinless? Because the Bible tells you so?

Actually no. There are non biblical sources that talks about the only reason Jesus was crucified was because Pilate wanted to appease Caphias and his people.

Pilate was on his last strike with Ceaser and a revolt instigated by the Jews would have Pilate being blamed and killed by Ceaser. In the end Pilate killed himself before Ceaser could kill him.

 

[ellessij]

Actually no. There are non biblical sources that talks about the only reason Jesus was crucified was because Pilate wanted to appease Caphias and his people.

Pilate was on his last strike with Ceaser and a revolt instigated by the Jews would have Pilate being blamed and killed by Ceaser. In the end Pilate killed himself before Ceaser could kill him.

I know my history lessons. You didn't answer my question, how do you know Jesus was sinless?

 

[Thsnnor]

I know my history lessons. You didn't answer my question, how do you know Jesus was sinless?

The Pharisees did not catch him in any sin. Who would have been in more of a position then them? Why did they keep trying to trap Him? All they needed was one.

 

[Dafunkdoc_Unlimited]

But "Siratul Rasu'allah" isn't a holy text, nor does anyone consider it as God's word. You explicitely said that the Gospels were written by men and probaby isn't God's word. You also recognized that the bible contained a lot of changes and historians agree that it has been altered, by mistake or on purpose by scribes.

I don't consider the Bible 'Holy', 'inspired', 'inerrant' or anything like that, so that point is moot. I consider all ancient texts historically by the same criteria. The Qu'ran was also explicitly written by men, no different than the Bible or the 'Siratul Rasu'allah'. I made no mention of whether or not it probably was/wasn't the word of some 'deity'. I did state that some believed it to be.

The fact that there are so many copies of Biblical texts makes those 'changes' stand out to the point historians/paleographers are reasonably assured of what was originally written, unlike any other text written in the same period.

Like I stated earlier, re-writing 'three-and-twenty' as 'twenty-three' =/= 'corruption'.

​

 

[I.AM.PIFF]

The one thing I don't agree with is MEN changing God's word (mainly the vatican) with all these other bible versions. Did you know in the last ~150 years over 200+ bible versions have been made?

If that is true then why did Allah tell Mohammed if he had doubts to go to the Jews and Christians to confirm what Allah has previously revealed? If not the gospels then did Allah send him on a wild goose chase?

So you agree that the bible has seen many versions in history. What's the proof that all these versions started recently and not since 1000s of years? The Quran also says that between the Jews and the Christians, there were those who denied God's message (like proclaiming Jesus (PBUH) being the son of God or the trinity) and those who beleived in the oneness of God and followed the teachings of the prophet.

Indeed, those who have believed [in Prophet Muhammad] and those [before Him] who were Jews or Sabeans or Christians - those [among them] who believed in Allah and the Last Day and did righteousness - no fear will there be concerning them, nor will they grieve.
http://quran.com/5/69

Indeed, those who believed and those who were Jews or Christians or Sabeans [before Prophet Muhammad] - those [among them] who believed in Allah and the Last Day and did righteousness - will have their reward with their Lord, and no fear will there be concerning them, nor will they grieve.
http://quran.com/2/62

It also says that Muhammad (PBUH) is ALLAH's (SWT) final messenger and those who believed in the revelations of God should follow him.

I've already addressed that last part in a previous post :

http://quran.com/10/94-95

10:94
So if you are in doubt, [O Muhammad], about that which We have revealed to you, then ask those who have been reading the Scripture before you. The truth has certainly come to you from your Lord, so never be among the doubters.
10:95
And never be of those who deny the signs of Allah and [thus] be among the losers.
This is a hypotehtical scenario that never happened since Muhammad (PBUH) never was in doubt of God's revelation. If he did, he'd have been among the losers. This is also similar to these verses:

6:86
And Ishmael and Elisha and Jonah and Lot - and all [of them] We preferred over the worlds.
6:87
And [some] among their fathers and their descendants and their brothers - and We chose them and We guided them to a straight path.
6:88
That is the guidance of Allah by which He guides whomever He wills of His servants. But if they had associated others with Allah , then worthless for them would be whatever they were doing.
http://quran.com/6/86-88

Did these righteous prophets ever falter from God's message and worship? Of course not, which is the same with our prophet Muhammad (PBUH), it's a conditional IF that has never happened. And onc again the scriptures refers to the original and true message of God, not the man-altered concept of trinity and Christian beliefs that will follow.

 

[I.AM.PIFF]

I don't consider the Bible 'Holy', 'inspired', 'inerrant' or anything like that, so that point is moot. I consider all ancient texts historically by the same criteria. The Qu'ran was also explicitly written by men, no different than the Bible or the 'Siratul Rasu'allah'. I made no mention of whether or not it probably was/wasn't the word of some 'deity'. I did state that some believed it to be.

The fact that there are so many copies of Biblical texts makes those 'changes' stand out to the point historians/paleographers are reasonably assured of what was originally written, unlike any other text written in the same period.

Like I stated earlier, re-writing 'three-and-twenty' as 'twenty-three' =/= 'corruption'.

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Whether you belive in the Quran being God's word or no, unbiased people can say that the Quran is far more authentic than the multiple versions and changes that the bible has seen. And I doubt there has been multiple revisions and changes just to rewrite 'three-and-twenty' as 'twenty-three'.

 

[Thsnnor]

So you agree that the bible has seen many versions in history. What's the proof that all these versions started recently and not since 1000s of years? The Quran also says that between the Jews and the Christians, there were those who denied God's message (like proclaiming Jesus (PBUH) being the son of God or the trinity) and those who beleived in the oneness of God and followed the teachings of the prophet.

Indeed, those who have believed [in Prophet Muhammad] and those [before Him] who were Jews or Sabeans or Christians - those [among them] who believed in Allah and the Last Day and did righteousness - no fear will there be concerning them, nor will they grieve.
http://quran.com/5/69

Indeed, those who believed and those who were Jews or Christians or Sabeans [before Prophet Muhammad] - those [among them] who believed in Allah and the Last Day and did righteousness - will have their reward with their Lord, and no fear will there be concerning them, nor will they grieve.
http://quran.com/2/62

It also says that Muhammad (PBUH) is ALLAH's (SWT) final messenger and those who believed in the revelations of God should follow him.

I've already addressed that last part in a previous post :

I agree not through out history only recently. There is a movement to get people away from the KJV (Textus Receptus).

If Allah gave Jesus and Mohammed the message why do they conflict? All the prophets up until Mohammed spoke the same message (the Koran confirms that).

The Koran also says the Christians would be uppermost till the day of resurrection but ISIS is ignoring that part.

Why did Allah allow two conflicting messages which he both confirmed?

 

[I.AM.PIFF]

I agree not through out history only recently. There is a movement to get people away from the KJV (Textus Receptus).

If Allah gave Jesus and Mohammed the message why do they conflict? All the prophets up until Mohammed spoke the same message (the Koran confirms that).

The Koran also says the Christians would be uppermost till the day of resurrection but ISIS is ignoring that part.

Why did Allah allow two conflicting messages which he both confirmed?

But the Quran says there is no conflict between the teaching of Jesus (PBUH) and Muhammad (PBUH). Those who claim that he's God or his son, or believe in the trinity or various beliefs conflicting with God's teachings are simply wrong, and those who believed the message of Jesus (PBUH) are correct and shall be rewarded by God.

ISIS is a terrorist and deviant organization, let's abstain from mentioning them. They've also mostly killed muslims, and muslims are BY FAR the largest victims of terrorism and these deviants dogs.

There's no conflict. I've talked about this so many times already. Why did God send various messengers and prophets throughout time? To guide those who were led astreay and chose the wrong path.

 

[Dafunkdoc_Unlimited]

Whether you belive in the Quran being God's word or no, unbiased people can say that the Quran is far more authentic than the multiple versions and changes that the bible has seen.

We don't have any original versions of the Qu'ran, so calling it 'more authentic' is a stretch. It's as 'authentic' as it can be considering all earlier iterations were destroyed and ALL the 'mus'hafs' (manuscripts) date from the 8th Century and contain thousands of variances in comparison to the Qu'ran we have today. In short, there is a period of at least 60-70 years after Muhammad died before the first versions of the Qu'ran appeared. There are no manuscripts/writings earlier.
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And I doubt there has been multiple revisions and changes just to rewrite 'three-and-twenty' as 'twenty-three'.

That's what about 99% of the 'changes' are along with spaces, punctuation, spelling and grammar. Also, there were no titles/chapter headings so, all-in-all, the changes amount to making the volumes easier to read which =/= 'corruption'.

I think you'd better define what you mean by that term since I don't comprehend what the issue is aside from the difference between the Bible and Qu'ran concerning Jesus.
​

 

[Thsnnor]

But the Quran says there is no conflict between the teaching of Jesus (PBUH) and Muhammad (PBUH). Those who claim that he's God or his son, or believe in the trinity or various beliefs conflicting with God's teachings are simply wrong, and those who believed the message of Jesus (PBUH) are correct and shall be rewarded by God.

ISIS is a terrorist and deviant organization, let's abstain from mentioning them. They've also mostly killed muslims, and muslims are BY FAR the largest victims of terrorism and these deviants dogs.

There's no conflict. I've talked about this so many times already. Why did God send various messengers and prophets throughout time? To guide those who were led astreay and chose the wrong path.

Before we go any further I want to say thank you and @lini... for chopping it up.

Allah said in the Koran
Surah 3:3-4
He has sent down upon you, [O Muhammad], the Book in truth, confirming what was before it. And He revealed the Torah and the Gospel. [4] Before, as guidance for the people. And He revealed the Qur'an. Indeed, those who disbelieve in the verses of Allah will have a severe punishment, and Allah is exalted in Might, the Owner of Retribution.

If Allah was refering to Jesus why don't Muslims read the Bible as Allah has said he gave the Torah and the Gospel (which conflicts with the Koran)?

I had no plans to mention ISIS any more.