Can Muslims and Christians both be right?

[lini...]

Muslims worship the God of Abraham but dont follow the commandments He gave to Moses because of what again...? No beef, just askin....

Muslims don't believe that the Bible contains the true commandments given to Moses. The Jewish Torah says that Israelites can kill those who try to convert them to another religion, even if it is your own child. It says Israelites are not to charge usury to other Israelites, but they can charge usury to non-Israelites. I don't believe God would reveal such a thing. And of 613 commandments, not one of them asked Israelites to invite others to their faith. I don't the believe the first 5 books of the Bible to be the actual Torah revealed to Moses (pbuh).

 

[IVS]

None of those others can save you or offer you salvation. There is something in each of us that looks for something greater than ourselves. It would be disservice to not follow the truth and only stay with something cause it gives us comfort.

Even Jesus was seen by over 500 people AFTER His resurrection. If it were not true Christianity would have imploded 2000 years ago cause they would have asked those who claimed to see Him.

LMAO! Sorry fella. Salvation for what? Don't need it. I know God. Don't need salvation, Jesus, prophet or any book to tell me about the one true god.

 

[lini...]

but how can you IGNORE that one claimed the only way to god was through him?

It is also recorded that he said, "I am not sent but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." How do you reconcile those 2 statements?

 

[Thsnnor]

Saying that Uthman (May ALLAH be pleased with him) as born 45 years after the prophet (PBUH) death is ridiculous and conflict entirely with the Hadith you showed

For a start, Hafsa (May ALLAH be pleased with her) was the daughter of Umar ibn al-Khattab (May ALLAH be pleased with him) and one of the prophet's (PBUH) wives. If
Uthman ibn Affan was the 3rd caliph succeeding Abu Bakr and Umar (May ALLAH be pleased with them) and reigned during 644 to 656 AD. 45 years after the prophet's (PBUH) death would make it 677 AD, at which point it was the Umayyad caliphate and Hafsa and much of the companions (May ALLAH be pleased with them) would be already dead Plus, it's a fact that he was one of our prophet's (PBUH) companions and present during his life. Those who were burned were the versions in which there were debates, so he did that in order to prevent division and separation like it happened with Ahl-al Kitab (people of the book). At that point there were several companions who have memorized and routinely teached the Quran and helped in making those copies who were sent to muslim provinces instead of those being burned.

And I believe as the Quran said about Jesus (PBUH) was not crucified. Feel free to disagree, but this is what I believe and I have strong conviction in it

History has shown Jesus died on the cross. Capihas (we have his bones) was in charge of it, Pilate gave the order for it, the Romans documented it, Josephus confirmed it. The only place where it is said Jesus did not die is in the Koran.

Even to this day you can see the tomb. It was originally for Joseph of Armithea who was around 5' 2" and Jesus was around 6ft. You can see how the tomb was extended out.

 

[lini...]

Everything I've written thus far can be backed up with the Bible (KJV), the Koran and the Hadidths.

There is only one way to salvation. This is the most important thing you can do in your live as it has consequences after you die. Eternity is a LONG time to be wrong. It was said if a bird could take a grain of sand from Earth to the Moon one by one by and bring them back one by one it would not be a drop in the bucket in Eternity.

One thing that i've heard recently that disturbed me was hearing about how soldiers were soaking the tips of their bullets in bacon fat and pigs blood before shooting. Some remarked even if people commited Jihad they would not see paradise because they were shot.

Jesus offers salvation as He is the only way. Anyone who calls on His name shall be saved. Nothing to earn, nothing to accumulate.

Just as we all have free will we can either choose to accept or reject. Search out the truth.

Thsnnor, I truly appreciate your sincere beckoning to me to come to what you perceive as Truth, but it is a exercise in futility. I have debated on these topics most of my life and I am certain that Christianity is not true!

I am certain that accountability and responsibility are the sole means of atoning for your actions. I am certain that if I can accumulate sin, that I can also accumulate righteous deeds.

My favorite verses of the Bible are these:

Eze 18:20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.
21 “But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 22 None of the transgressions which he has committed shall be remembered against him; because of the righteousness which he has done, he shall live. 23 Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?” says the Lord God, “and not that he should turn from his ways and live?


These verses are a means of fairness and justice and they are in total agreement with Al-Islam. Yet they are in direct opposition to the doctrine of Original Sin and Atonement in Christianity. I applaud your efforts, but I am too far gone.

 

[lini...]

History has shown Jesus died on the cross. Capihas (we have his bones) was in charge of it, Pilate gave the order for it, the Romans documented it, Josephus confirmed it. The only place where it is said Jesus did not die is in the Koran.

Even to this day you can see the tomb. It was originally for Joseph of Armithea who was around 5' 2" and Jesus was around 6ft. You can see how the tomb was extended out.

A few reasons why you should question the crucifixion of Jesus (pbuh):


-The Bible says none of his bones will be broken. It is impossible to be nailed to a cross with none of your bones broken.



-Jesus (pbuh) begged God for hours to be saved from the crucifixion and the Bible says a just man’s prayed are always heard by God. Jesus (pbuh) himself says that God always hears him and Hebrews 5:7 says that God heard his prayers to be saved him from the crucifixion. The Biblical connation of "God hears your prayers" is that God answers your prayers. Therefore God answered Jesus' (pbuh) pleas to be saved. The alternative is that God ignored his prayers to be saved.



-Jesus (pbuh) said that it is IMPOSSIBLE for him to die outside of Jerusalem. The crucifixion is said to have taken place at Golgotha, which is OUTSIDE OF JERUSALEM.



- Jesus (pbuh), Mary Magdalene, Paul and two angels said that Jesus (pbuh) was ALIVE, not resurrected. If one is resurrected, that means that you were actually dead and you came back as a spirit. When someone is said to be ALIVE, that means that they were presumed to be dead, but they are not.



- Jesus (pbuh) said that resurrected people are spirits. Jesus’ (pbuh) disciple thought that he was resurrected, but Jesus (pbuh) assures them that he was not a spirit, but his same physical self. He even ate food to demonstrate that he was not a resurrected spirit.



For a more concise explanation of these points and many more, see the book, “Jesus was not Crucified”

 

[Thsnnor]

Thsnnor, I truly appreciate your sincere beckoning to me to come to what you perceive as Truth, but it is a exercise in futility. I have debated on these topics most of my life and I am certain that Christianity is not true!

I am certain that accountability and responsibility are the sole means of atoning for your actions. I am certain that if I can accumulate sin, that I can also accumulate righteous deeds.

My favorite verses of the Bible are these:

Eze 18:20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.
21 “But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 22 None of the transgressions which he has committed shall be remembered against him; because of the righteousness which he has done, he shall live. 23 Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?” says the Lord God, “and not that he should turn from his ways and live?


These verses are a means of fairness and justice and they are in total agreement with Al-Islam. Yet they are in direct opposition to the doctrine of Original Sin and Atonement in Christianity. I applaud your efforts, but I am too far gone.

Correct me if I am wrong but that seems very close to "your good outweighing your bad". What happens if your bad outweighs your good when you die? and have you done enough thus far to go to paradise?

 

[IVS]

History has shown Jesus died on the cross. Capihas (we have his bones) was in charge of it, Pilate gave the order for it, the Romans documented it, Josephus confirmed it. The only place where it is said Jesus did not die is in the Koran.

Even to this day you can see the tomb. It was originally for Joseph of Armithea who was around 5' 2" and Jesus was around 6ft. You can see how the tomb was extended out.

Ok so?! He died on a cross...who cares? What does that have to do with you, me or us? He could not die for your or my sins according to his own religious law, which he came not to change. He was never anointed King of Israel, so how is he the messiah\christ of the Jews. And even if he had been anointed, I could care less that the TaNaKh claims the messiah to be the King of Jacob-iyya\Israel, but king of the world. GTFOH! You folks are some new fools believing in this nonsense.

 

[Thsnnor]

A few reasons why you should question the crucifixion of Jesus (pbuh):


-The Bible says none of his bones will be broken. It is impossible to be nailed to a cross with none of your bones broken.



-Jesus (pbuh) begged God for hours to be saved from the crucifixion and the Bible says a just man’s prayed are always heard by God. Jesus (pbuh) himself says that God always hears him and Hebrews 5:7 says that God heard his prayers to be saved him from the crucifixion. The Biblical connation of "God hears your prayers" is that God answers your prayers. Therefore God answered Jesus' (pbuh) pleas to be saved. The alternative is that God ignored his prayers to be saved.



-Jesus (pbuh) said that it is IMPOSSIBLE for him to die outside of Jerusalem. The crucifixion is said to have taken place at Golgotha, which is OUTSIDE OF JERUSALEM.



- Jesus (pbuh), Mary Magdalene, Paul and two angels said that Jesus (pbuh) was ALIVE, not resurrected. If one is resurrected, that means that you were actually dead and you came back as a spirit. When someone is said to be ALIVE, that means that they were presumed to be dead, but they are not.



- Jesus (pbuh) said that resurrected people are spirits. Jesus’ (pbuh) disciple thought that he was resurrected, but Jesus (pbuh) assures them that he was not a spirit, but his same physical self. He even ate food to demonstrate that he was not a resurrected spirit.



For a more concise explanation of these points and many more, see the book, “Jesus was not Crucified”

It is very possible to not have bones broken. Dr's have confirmed it and even shown it. The nails go through the tender meats of your hand and feet.

Jesus prayed in the garden to let the cup pass from him but let God's will be done and not his. If that prayer were true Jesus and God and by extension Allah would have ALL been liars due to the very scriptures we have in our hands.

Jesus had to die outside of the city as Jewish Law did not permit executions and burials INSIDE the city. During previous revolts against the Romans by Jews they were all killed and there were over 2000 cruficiations ALL outside the city.

Jesus was in a sealed tomb with Roman guards outside. No one got in or out. Even better they said they came and stole his body while they were sleeping. How do you know what is going on while sleeping??? Even double better a Roman guard sleeping on duty is the ONE absolute way to be found guilty of treason and killed.

Jesus ate and drank with them afterwards. Lets also not forget Thomas who put his fingers through the nail holes and the spear opening in his side.

None of these things were done in secret and multiple witnesses were present at every step. At any point in time over 2000 years ago if this were not true someone could have proven it and we would not have Christianity today.

 

[Thsnnor]

Ok so?! He died on a cross...who cares? What does that have to do with you, me or us? He could not die for your or my sins according to his own religious law, which he came not to change. He was never anointed King of Israel, so how is he the messiah\christ of the Jews. And even if he had been anointed, I could care less that the TaNaKh claims the messiah to be the King of Jacob-iyya\Israel, but king of the world. GTFOH! You folks are some new fools believing in this nonsense.

It is the central point for Christianity. Jesus died for our sins. He took the full wrath of God (which was written about over 1000 years before Jesus stepped foot on Earth) so we can be saved.

He did it cause He loves us. The greatest measure of love. Dying for people even if they don't care about you, deny you ever existed, reject you cause they can and He did it willingly.

Jesus did not change the Law, He fulfilled it.

 

[IVS]

It is the central point for Christianity. Jesus died for our sins. He took the full wrath of God (which was written about over 1000 years before Jesus stepped foot on Earth) so we can be saved.

He did it cause He loves us. The greatest measure of love. Dying for people even if they don't care about you, deny you ever existed, reject you cause they can and He did it willingly.

Jesus did not change the Law, He fulfilled it.

Huh! Regurgitating doctrinal babble. i don't argue with fools. You can feel however you please about Jesus, but I implore you to learn more about what it is you believe in. Jesus himself never said he was dying for our sins, and even asked God, his father, why he had forsaken him on the cross. John introduces him as the Lamb of God, and Paul concocts the doctrine in Jesus wake, and it is courtesy of Paul's letters (epistles) that you are led to believe that Jesus died for your sins...which he did not, and could not.

Don't allow some "theologian" to practice hermeneutics on the Old Testament and concoct a silly idea like original sin (which is not in the NT btw). Or dont allow them to anthropromorph God into a human being that can be killed. Maybe I just expect too much from humans, like rational thought, and some semblance of sense.

You're pseudo-jacobites partaking in the passover ritual with your eucharist. And the everlasting covenant with Abraham was circumcision which was specifically removed as a rite in the new testament doctrine because the Byzantines ("Greco-Romans") abhorred the practice. So you had "jewish" men undergoing epispasm to fit into the greco-roman society in order to partake in athletic games and use the bathhouses.

 

[Thsnnor]

Huh! You sound like an idiot who regurgitates doctrinal babble. i don't argue with fools. So you can feel however you please about Jesus, but implore you to learn more about what it is you believe in. Jesus himself never said he was dieing for our sins, and even asked God, his father, why he had forsaken him on the cross. John introduces him as the Lamb of God, and Paul concocts the doctrine in Jesus wake, and it is courtesy of Paul's letters (epistles) that you are led to believe that Jesus died for your sins...which he did not, and could not.

Don't allow some "theologian" to practice hermeneutics on the Old Testament and concoct a silly idea like original sin (which is not in the NT btw). Or dont allow them to anthropromorph God into a human being that can be killed. Maybe I just expect too much from humans, like rational thought, and some semblance of sense.

I have learned much. I've looked at claims about Islam, mormanism, catholicism and Christianity. I have done it without regard to feelings and emotions as they will interrupt the truth process.

The depravity of man is the most empirically verifiable fact and the most intellectually resistant. Every day we see people doing wrong. We are not capable of redeeming ourselves. It must come from without and not within.

 

[lini...]

I'll never care about what God gave to Abraham or Moses, because civilization and governance existed long before the Bible or any Jacobite\Israelite people came into existence as proven by the Bible. The Egyptians had a government, laws and a moral code, hence why Moses had to flee into the desert after killing two men. In Abraham's time he entered Egypt and other regions were ahead of the so called Jews. The Canaanites, Philistines etc had a cities, temples and their own religion in the time of Moses.

And there is no way anybody can say that Christianity is more right than Islam, because Christianity according to the its new testament doctrine is a false faith that completely contradicts the new testament and anthropomorphs the eternal god into Jesus of Nazareth. The whole story associated with Jesus is laughable...dude is born of a virgin, walks on waters, is assasinated and ascends into heaven. not to mention walking on water and sh!t like that. Sounds like the stories you'd manufacture around a cult leader.

I bet if a scientologist told you those same things about L. Ron Hubbard you'd look at them crazy, even is he had alleged eyewitness accounts of these events because the idea alone is absurd.

At least Islam does not even attempt to say that Muhammad was God incarnate, so from that alone you have to say Islam\Mohammedian-ism is more correct than Christianity-Catholicism. Islam at least knows there is no God, but God...he has no form and cannot be confined to a body or die. Islam has its share of non-sense though too like Muhammad's night journey.

And neither the Jacobites, Arabs, nor Christians were the first to introduce such a concept as throughout the east you will find Brahman as the concept of the eternal force and\or great mystery. In China you find Tien (the sky, heaven), chukwu, in the American Wakan Tanka etc. Man can believe in one God, but still have fetishes and practice ancestor and\or nature worship.

Correct me if I am wrong but that seems very close to "your good outweighing your bad". What happens if your bad outweighs your good when you die? and have you done enough thus far to go to paradise?

Yes, it is quite similar. If your bad outweighs your good then you have problems. But I have plenty of good. The Qur'an says that good deeds can erase bad deeds, but not vice versa. Just as in Ezekiel, if I eschew my bad deeds, repent and make amends if possible, God will forgive me (without blood).

 

[Thsnnor]

Yes, it is quite similar. If your bad outweighs your good then you have problems. But I have plenty of good. The Qur'an says that good deeds and erase bad deeds, but not vice versa. Just as in Ezekiel, if I eschew my bad deeds, repent and make amends if possible, God will forgive me (without blood).

That is something you have to work towards tho. If something were to happen to me (again) and I was taken out of here I know with 100% accuracy where I'm going. Mormonism, Hinduism, or any other can give that with certainty.

 

[lini...]

It is very possible to not have bones broken. Dr's have confirmed it and even shown it. The nails go through the tender meats of your hand and feet.

Jesus prayed in the garden to let the cup pass from him but let God's will be done and not his. If that prayer were true Jesus and God and by extension Allah would have ALL been liars due to the very scriptures we have in our hands.

Jesus had to die outside of the city as Jewish Law did not permit executions and burials INSIDE the city. During previous revolts against the Romans by Jews they were all killed and there were over 2000 cruficiations ALL outside the city.

Jesus was in a sealed tomb with Roman guards outside. No one got in or out. Even better they said they came and stole his body while they were sleeping. How do you know what is going on while sleeping??? Even double better a Roman guard sleeping on duty is the ONE absolute way to be found guilty of treason and killed.

Jesus ate and drank with them afterwards. Lets also not forget Thomas who put his fingers through the nail holes and the spear opening in his side.

None of these things were done in secret and multiple witnesses were present at every step. At any point in time over 2000 years ago if this were not true someone could have proven it and we would not have Christianity today.

1. You cannot put a nail large enough to hang a grown man on a cross that does not crack any bones. Just feel you hands and feet and think about that. Also the prophecy says that Jesus (pbuh) will be saved from ALL ills, that would include tendons and flesh and crucifixion altogether!

2.Jesus (pbuh) prayed to not be crucified. And it is reported while on the cross, he asked God, why did God forsake him? Quite strange for a martyr, who has supposedly prophesying his death all along, to say.

3.He said it was IMPOSSIBLE to die outside of Jerusalem and the crucifixion supposedly happened outside of Jerusalem. Either he was wrong,or he was not crucified.

4. There were several witnesses who said he was ALIVE! Not resurrected!

5. And he ate food to show that he was the same flesh in blood person that they knew. In fact, Thomas touching him actually helps my case. He wasnt a resurrected being, but a LIVE being.

6. And there were at least 3 different early christian groups that believe that he was not crucified. And the reason that they do not exist today is because Paul converted gentiles and it is obvious that there are more gentiles than Jews. They voted ALL other beliefs about Jesus (pbuh) to be heresy. THEY VOTED! That means that it is quite possible that those early Christians were right, yet the larger percentage got their votes heard and remembered forever.