Can Muslims and Christians both be right?

[lini...]

That is something you have to work towards tho. If something were to happen to me (again) and I was taken out of here I know with 100% accuracy where I'm going. Mormonism, Hinduism, or any other can give that with certainty.

I wouldn't be so sure of that guarantee. Just as no one sinned for you, no one can atone for your sins, but you. Personal accountability! No one goes to court, pleads guilty and someone else goes to jail. You do the crime, YOU do the time!

 

[Fervid]

It's all just a by-product of hard-wired human narcissism.

 

[Thsnnor]

I wouldn't be so sure of that guarantee. Just as no one sinned for you, no one can atone for your sins, but you. Personal accountability! No one goes to court, pleas guilty and someone else goes to jail. You do the crime, YOU do the time!

No one sins for me. I sin for myself. Since I have sinned there is nothing I can do to erase that. Its on the same level as taking away a memory. You may forget it happened but it doesn't erase that it happened.

When you die physically and your spirit remains then no one should go to paradise. Sin has caused everyone to fall short. Even the Koran said Jesus was righteous. He was the only one to fulfill the Law.

 

[Thsnnor]

1. You cannot put a nail large enough to hang a grown man on a cross that does not crack any bones. Just feel you hands and feet and think about that. Also the prophecy says that Jesus (pbuh) will be saved from ALL ills, that would include tendons and flesh and crucifixion altogether!

2.Jesus (pbuh) prayed to not be crucified. And it is reported while on the cross, he asked God, why did God forsake him? Quite strange for a martyr who has supposedly prophesying his death all along to say.

3.He said it was IMPOSSIBLE to die outside of Jerusalem and the crucifixion supposedly happened outside of Jerusalem. Either he was wrong,or he was not crucified.

4. There were several witnesses who said he was ALIVE! Not resurrected!

5. And he ate food to show that he was the same flesh in blood person that they knew. In fact, Thomas touching him actually helps my case. He wasnt a resurrected being, but a LIVE being.

6. And there were at least 3 different early christain groups that believe that he was not crucified. And the reason that they do not exist today is because the Paul converted gentiles and it is obvious that there are more gentiles than Jews. They voted ALL other beliefs about Jesus (pbuh) to be heresy. THEY VOTED! That means that it is quite possible that those early Christians were right, yet the larger percentage got their votes heard and remembered forever.

1.) The Bible said not a bone would be broken. That was fulfilled (they also didn't have to break His legs as He already was dead).

2.) God is fully righteous. Jesus was still God and He took the full cup of wrath.

3.) Going to need proof of said claim as even writings from that time period state burials and crufications are outside of the city.

4.) The Roman guard who pierced His side after having the blood and water fall upon him said truly this is the Son of God. They said he was alive AFTER being dead for three days in a sealed tomb (with guards). Only one person in history has survived a crucification. Happened to be a friend of a Roman General. The guy only got a partial crux and even still his recovery was months.

Josephus, for example, reports that he came upon three of his former colleagues among a large group of crucified captives. He went to Titus asking for mercy, begging that they might be taken down. Titus agreed, and the three men were brought down from the cross. Despite professional medical attention, two of them died, but the third survived.

5.) There were over 5 people that were involved with bring Jesus down from the cross. If He were alive at that time someone would have noticed. While Joseph of Armithea and Nicodemus along with Mary, Mary, John and whoever else was preparing Jesus with spices and linen one of them would have noticed if Jesus were still alive. Everyone knew He died and there is non-biblical testimony about it.

6.) No one is trying to debate if Jesus died and ressurected anymore. The move *cough by the vatican cough* is to try to deny weather Jesus was God or not. Trying to deny His Divinity is whats hot in these streets. They have been trying to do it now for 2000 years.

 

[Thsnnor]

Even throughout history Jesus has the greatest impact. One of the best summations about it is from Napoleon Bonaparte.

"I know men and I tell you that Jesus Christ is no mere man. Between Him and every other person in the world there is no possible term of comparison. Alexander, Caesar, Charlemagne, and I have founded empires. But on what did we rest the creation of our genius? Upon force. Jesus Christ founded His empire upon love; and at this hour millions of men would die for Him."
--Napoleon

"I know men, and I tell you that Jesus is not a man. Superficial minds see a resemblance between Christ and the founders of empires, and the gods of other religions, that resemblance does not exist. There is between Christianity and other religions, the distance of infinity."
--Napoleon

"I marvel that whereas the ambitious dreams of my self, Caesar, and Alexander should have vanished into thin air, a Judean peasant—Jesus—should be able to stretch His hands across the centuries and control the destinies of men and nations."
--Napoleon

"The nature of Christ’s existence is mysterious, I admit; but this mystery meets the wants of man. Reject it and the world is an explicable riddle; believe it, and the history of our race is satisfactorily explained."
--Napoleon

 

[IVS]

1.) The Bible said not a bone would be broken. That was fulfilled (they also didn't have to break His legs as He already was dead).

2.) God is fully righteous. Jesus was still God and He took the full cup of wrath.

3.) Going to need proof of said claim as even writings from that time period state burials and crufications are outside of the city.

4.) The Roman guard who pierced His side after having the blood and water fall upon him said truly this is the Son of God. They said he was alive AFTER being dead for three days in a sealed tomb (with guards). Only one person in history has survived a crucification. Happened to be a friend of a Roman General. The guy only got a partial crux and even still his recovery was months.

Josephus, for example, reports that he came upon three of his former colleagues among a large group of crucified captives. He went to Titus asking for mercy, begging that they might be taken down. Titus agreed, and the three men were brought down from the cross. Despite professional medical attention, two of them died, but the third survived.

5.) There were over 5 people that were involved with bring Jesus down from the cross. If He were alive at that time someone would have noticed. While Joseph of Armithea and Nicodemus along with Mary, Mary, John and whoever else was preparing Jesus with spices and linen one of them would have noticed if Jesus were still alive. Everyone knew He died and there is non-biblical testimony about it.

6.) No one is trying to debate if Jesus died and ressurected anymore. The move *cough by the vatican cough* is to try to deny weather Jesus was God or not. Trying to deny His Divinity is whats hot in these streets. They have been trying to do it now for 2000 years.

I am sorry buddy, but its incredible you don't see they are using typology from the Exodus passover lamb and infusing it into the Jesus of Nazareth mythos then you are a blind fool. The whole unblemished lamb and no bone may be broken stipulations come right out of Exodus. And the whole God's only begotten son, an God revealing himself in the for of a ram\lamb comes right out of Genesis.

Its too clear that someone is "playing" on the OT and incorporating parts of stories into Jesus life. It is painfully obvious. Meanwhile the law explicits states no man can die for the sins of another. Im not saying a "Jesus" like character didn't exist or that there was not a man crucified for rebelling against the Pharisees, but elements of his life are being purported by the very men he hated like Saul of Tarsus aka Paul the Roman citizen and Pharisee (Hellenized Jews), or the Pharisee Simon of Samaria aka Peter.

 

[Thsnnor]

I am sorry buddy, but its incredible you don't see they are using typology from the Exodus passover lamb and infusing it into the Jesus of Nazareth mythos then you are a blind fool. The whole unblemished lamb and no bone may be broken stipulations come right out of Exodus. And the whole God's only begotten son, an God revealing himself in the for of a ram\lamb comes right out of Genesis.

Its too clear that someone is "playing" on the OT and incorporating parts of stories into Jesus life. It is painfully obvious. Meanwhile the law explicits states no man can die for the sins of another. Im not saying a "Jesus" like character didn't exist or that there was not a man crucified for rebelling against the Pharisees, but elements of his life are being purported by the very men he hated like Saul of Tarsus aka Paul the Roman citizen and Pharisee (Hellenized Jews), or the Pharisee Simon of Samaria aka Peter.

So we are back to the name calling I see..... Jesus fulfilled the Law from the O.T. Even when Moses struck the rock it was the tribe of Benjamin. Who had the cup stashed in his sack... Benjamin. Which tribe was responsible for the crucification of Jesus.... Benjamin.

Which is the nice thing about it. The Bible was written by over 40 authors over the span of 1500 years. There was no monopoly on the text. If something were out of place people would know. If you put the KJV against the Textus Receptus they will match. How could they "play" on the OT? The last book was written CENTURIES before.

Which is why I say if ANY part were able to be caught by them Christianity would have fallen. No one was able to disprove any of it.

 

[Thsnnor]

Even if you take 10 names out of Genesis and translate them it still will lead you to Jesus.

• Let’s take the first name, Adam, comes from adomah, and means “man.” As the first man, that is fairly simple Adam means…..MAN
• Seth…Adam’s son was named Seth, which means “appointed.” When he was born Eve said, “For God hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew.” Seth’s name means…APPOINTED
• Enosh….Seth’s son was called Enosh, which means “mortal,” “frail,” or “miserable.” It is from the root anash: Which is translated literally…….MORTAL
• Kenan…….Enosh’s son was named Kenan, from which can mean “sorrow,” dirge,” or “elegy….Literally translated….SORROW
• Mahalalel……..Kenan’s son was Mahalalel, from mahalal, which means “blessed”, or “praise”; and El, the name for God. Thus, Mahalalel means literally…. THE BLESSED GOD
• Jared…Mahalalel’s son was named Jared, from the verb yaradh, Literal meaning …SHALL COME DOWN
• Enoch……Jared’s son was named Enoch, which means “teaching,” or “commencement.” He was the first of four generations of preachers. Literal translation……TEACHING
• Methuselah …….The name Methuselah comes from two roots: muth, a root that means “death”; and from shalach, which means “to bring,” or “to send forth.” Thus, the name Methuselah literally translated means….HIS DEATH SHALL BRING
• Lamech……Methuselah’s son was named Lamech, a root still evident today in our own English word, “lament” or “lamentation.” Lamech literally translated means DESPARRING
• Noah…….Lamech, of course, is the father of Noah, which is derived from nacham . Noah literally translated means ……COMFORT

Now let’s put them all in order into a sentence……

Man (has) Appointed Mortal Sorrow ;( but) The Blessed God Shall Come Down Teaching, (and) His Death Shall Bring the Despairing Comfort.

 

[Type Username Here]

This person posting above me is mentally ill. I'm dead serious too.

 

[Dafunkdoc_Unlimited]

6. And there were at least 3 different early christian groups that believe that he was not crucified. And the reason that they do not exist today is because Paul converted gentiles and it is obvious that there are more gentiles than Jews. They voted ALL other beliefs about Jesus (pbuh) to be heresy. THEY VOTED! That means that it is quite possible that those early Christians were right, yet the larger percentage got their votes heard and remembered forever.

Hebrews declared Christianity a heresy in the 2nd Century, but the idea existed centuries before and was part of Orthodox Judaism. The early groups that didn't believe Jesus was executed were the Basilidians, Carpocrations, and Paulicians, iirc. I may have forgotten if there were any more. It wasn't just their beliefs about Jesus that were objectionable. They were all Gnostic Christians who believed that YHWH was subordinate to another 'power', that there were two 'deities'; one good and one evil, that the world was created by 'angels', that all human beings could become equal to 'deities', that all matter was 'evil', that 'magic' actually worked, that they were not bound by Mosaic Law, and a few other things.

​

 

[lini...]

Hebrews declared Christianity a heresy in the 2nd Century, but the idea existed centuries before and was part of Orthodox Judaism. The early groups that didn't believe Jesus was executed were the Basilidians, Carpocrations, and Paulicians, iirc. I may have forgotten if there were any more. It wasn't just their beliefs about Jesus that were objectionable. They were all Gnostic Christians who believed that YHWH was subordinate to another 'power', that there were two 'deities'; one good and one evil, that the world was created by 'angels', that all human beings could become equal to 'deities', that all matter was 'evil', that 'magic' actually worked, that they were not bound by Mosaic Law, and a few other things.

​

This does not refute a word that I said.

 

[Dafunkdoc_Unlimited]

This does not refute a word that I said.

Their views were considered heretical due to their stance on the nature of YHWH, not their views on Jesus.​

 

[Everythingg]

Muslims don't believe that the Bible contains the true commandments given to Moses. The Jewish Torah says that Israelites can kill those who try to convert them to another religion, even if it is your own child. It says Israelites are not to charge usury to other Israelites, but they can charge usury to non-Israelites. I don't believe God would reveal such a thing. And of 613 commandments, not one of them asked Israelites to invite others to their faith. I don't the believe the first 5 books of the Bible to be the actual Torah revealed to Moses (pbuh).

So your God (who should be the God of Abraham) gave His Torah to Moses who then subsequently gave it to Israel? And yet God didnt seek to preserve this Torah? But waited until Mohammed to attempt to preserve His word? While allowing the Hebrews to make up laws,commandments and COVENANTS in His name all the way up until Mohammed? You can see why this makes little to no sense right?

 

[lini...]

Their views were considered heretical due to their stance on the nature of YHWH, not their views on Jesus.​

My points were that early Christians believed that he was not crucified. ----True
And they are generally forgotten because they were voted out------Also True

You added superfluous information for no reason at all.

 

[Dafunkdoc_Unlimited]

My points were that early Christians believed that he was not crucified. ----True
And they are generally forgotten because they were voted out------Also True

Your point was that it was ONLY due to Jesus' status when that wasn't the case.​