Does the Talmud ACTUALLY say that?

[DoubleClutch]

never forget, his name means "powers of the soul"

so secretly it be feeling like @Koichos warps in out the ether to correct my bad interpretations

but look at the hebrew first

Psalm 110:1 Hebrew Text Analysis

The LORD (explicit name) said "to my master"

sit at my right hand...etc etc

Hebrew Concordance: la·ḏō·nî -- 24 Occurrences

the english translation makes little mistakes here and there that can completely flip the interpretation wrong

so the implication is where it means generic "ruler" not necessarily God

Right but aside from the linguistics. What’s the basic context of the scriptures.

Like what’s the meaning to be taken from it?

What’s happening in the chapter?

People (Christians mostly) always quote that verse to make a point but I never really looked into it on a basic level without reading into the text.

 

[Koichos]

Let’s keep it going…..

So once again, I need the assistance of @Koichos

Can you explain to me your perspective on Psalm 110:1

For he stands at the right hand of the needy, to save their lives from those who would condemn them.

Of David. A psalm. The LORD says to my lord: “Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet.”

The LORD will extend your mighty scepter from Zion, saying, “Rule in the midst of your enemies!”

I need the Jewish perspective. I think we covered this before but I forgot your response

@MMS can also chime in as usual because I know he will

Brother DC is back!

לְדָֿוִ֗דֿ מִ֫זְמ֥וֹר
נְאֻ֤ם יְיָ֨ ׀ לַֽאֿדֹֿנִ֗י
שֵׁ֥בֿ לִימִינִ֑י עַדֿ־אָשִׁ֥יתֿ אֹֽ֝יְבֶ֗יךָֿ הֲדֹֿ֣ם לְרַגְֿלֶֽיךָֿ׃​

About David, a hymn.
Adοnaі’s declaration to my master—
‘wait at my right [side], until I make for you a footrest of your enemies.’

The word used here is אֲדֹנִי adοnі (‘my [human] master’, not to be confused with God’s title אֲדֹנָי adοnaі) with the preposition לַ־ la- (‘to..’), a direct reference to Avraham Avіnu whom the people called אֲדֹנִי adοnі (‘my master’; B'reshіt 23:6,11,15). The text set the precedent for this title of his in B'reshіt 18:12 during Sarah’s internal dialogue.

But because the T'hіllah begins לְדָוִד l'davіd (‘About Davіd..’), and the central purpose of the T'hіllіm were for the choir of L'vіyyіm in the Temple, there are also Hebrew sources for which Davіd is the subject as the L'vіyyіm who were accompanied by an orchestra would have sung about Davіd ‘Adοnaі’s declaration to my master [=Davіd]’.

Either works, and we have who to cite for both: on the side of Davіd (hymn for Davіd) - Targum Yοnatan, Ib'n `Ezra, R'daḳ, Malbi"m; and on the side of Avraham (hymn by Davіd) - Talmud Bavlі, Mіdrash T'hіllіm, Rash"і. In his notes on T'hіllіm 110:4, Rash"і offers some insight into the relevance of כֹּהן kοhen and מַלְכִּי־צֶדֶק Malkі-Tzeddeḳ.

אתה כהן לעולם על דברתי מלכי צדק—ממך תצא הכהונה ומלכות להיות בניך יורשין את שם אבי אביך הכהונה והמלכות שנתנו לו׃
אתה כהן—יש במשמע "כהן" כהונה ושררה, כמו "ובני דוד כהנים היו" (שמואל ב' ח' י"ח)׃​

You will be a kοhen forever, Malkі-Tzeddeḳ—[In other words,] priesthood and royalty will both emerge from you [Avraham], in that your descendants will inherit from your grandfather Shem [who is called Malkі-Tzeddeḳ] both the priesthood and the royalty which were granted to him [i.e., some of your descendants will inherit one and some the other].
You will be a kοhen—the word kοhen can denote both priesthood and also rulership—as, for example, in the verse ‘Davіd’s sons were government ministers [kοhanіm] (Sh'muël Part II 8:18)’.

Verse 4 mentions Malki-Tzeddeḳ (‘king of righteousness’), not a personal name but a title borne by all the Y'rushalmі kings beginning with Shem ben Nο'ah (B'reshіt 14:18).

.כׇּל מַלְכֵי יְרוּשָׁלִַם הָיוּ נִקְרָאִים בַּזְּמַן הַהוּא מַלְכִּי־צֶדֶק אוֹ אֲדֹנִי־צֶדֶק​

All the kings of Y'rushalayіm at that time were called [by the title] Malkі-Tzeddeḳ or Adοnі-Tzeddeḳ. (R'daḳ on Y'hοshu`a 10:1)

Put simply, T'hіllіm 110 evokes God’s hand in Avra(ha)m’s miraculous victory at Sіddіm (B'reshіt ch.14) where Malki-Tzeddeḳ brought him gifts and blessed him (vv.18-19).

 

[DoubleClutch]

Brother DC is back!

The word used here is אֲדֹנִי adοnі (‘my [human] master’, not to be confused with God’s title אֲדֹנָי adοnaі) with the preposition לַ־ la- (‘to..’), a direct reference to Avraham Avіnu whom the people called אֲדֹנִי adοnі (‘my master’; B'reshіt 23:6,11,15). The text set the precedent for this title of his in B'reshіt 18:12 during Sarah’s internal dialogue.

But because the T'hіllah begins לְדָוִד l'davіd (‘About Davіd..’), and the central purpose of the T'hіllіm were for the choir of L'vіyyіm in the Temple, there are also Hebrew sources for which Davіd is the subject as the L'vіyyіm who were accompanied by an orchestra would have sung about Davіd ‘Adοnaі’s declaration to my master [=Davіd]’.

Either works, and we have who to cite for both: on the side of Davіd (hymn for Davіd) - Targum Yοnatan, Ib'n `Ezra, R'daḳ, Malbi"m; and on the side of Avraham (hymn by Davіd) - Talmud Bavlі, Mіdrash T'hіllіm, Rash"і. In his notes on T'hіllіm 110:4, Rash"і offers some insight into the relevance of כֹּהן kοhen and מַלְכִּי־צֶדֶק Malkі-Tzeddeḳ.

Verse 4 mentions Malki-Tzeddeḳ (‘king of righteousness’), not a personal name but a title borne by all the Y'rushalmі kings beginning with Shem ben Nο'ah (B'reshіt 14:18).

Put simply, T'hіllіm 110 evokes God’s hand in Avra(ha)m’s miraculous victory at Sіddіm (B'reshіt ch.14) where Malki-Tzeddeḳ brought him gifts and blessed him (vv.18-19).

Ok so I never really read psalms all the way But you’re saying it’s a performance/play in script form?

And someone is telling the story of how their lord (human master on earth) Adoni (David) is victorious by evoking the power of (God) Adonai which is a reference to Avra(ha)m from an earlier story

But all this is written by David originally?

Did I get it right?

 

[Koichos]

Ok so I never really read psalms all the way But you’re saying it’s a performance/play in script form?

And someone is telling the story of how their lord (human master on earth) Adoni (David) is victorious by evoking the power of (God) Adonai which is a reference to Avra(ha)m from an earlier story

Yep. T'hіllіm (‘Psalms’) are poems, composed in poetic language, for the central purpose of the L'vіyyіm to sing in the Temple every day including shabbat.

But all this is written by David originally?

Did I get it right?

Davіd authored most (but not all!) of the T'hіllіm:

• some of them (chapters 72 and 127) were composed by Sh'lοmοh;
• others (chapters 42, 44-49, 84-85, 87-88) are attributed to ‘Ḳοrah’s sons [descendants]’;
• at least one (chapter 110) is anonymous and is headed merely ‘About Davіd’;
• and another (chapter 137) was written - again anonymously - during the Babylonian exile, long after Davіd was dead.

They’re wonderful I’m sure you’d enjoy the read.

 

[DoubleClutch]

Yep. T'hіllіm (‘Psalms’) are poems, composed in poetic language, for the central purpose of the L'vіyyіm to sing in the Temple every day including shabbat.


Davіd authored most (but not all!) of the T'hіllіm:

• some of them (chapters 72 and 127) were composed by Sh'lοmοh;
• others (chapters 42, 44-49, 84-85, 87-88) are attributed to ‘Ḳοrah’s sons [descendants]’;
• at least one (chapter 110) is anonymous and is headed merely ‘About Davіd’;
• and another (chapter 137) was written - again anonymously - during the Babylonian exile, long after Davіd was dead.

They’re wonderful I’m sure you’d enjoy the read.

does it still get performed these days?

So tradition says David is the writer of the play or did people just write about him

I feel like the story of David has basically become 100% literature for the reader

Also do you watch the new movies and tv series?

I think there’s like 3-4 David related films to come out this year alone

 

[Koichos]

does it still get performed these days?

As part of our formal prayer-liturgy, yes. T'hіllіm are considered so important that they were incorporated into the פְּסוּקֵי דְּזִמְרָה that precede the morning t'fіllοt (prayers).

So tradition says David is the writer of the play or did people just write about him

Both. Even though the T'hіllіm are associated with Davіd he didn’t actually compose all of them, just the majority.

I feel like the story of David has basically become 100% literature for the reader

Also do you watch the new movies and tv series?

I think there’s like 3-4 David related films to come out this year alone

I don’t really watch television or movies.

 

[DoubleClutch]

As part of our formal prayer-liturgy, yes. T'hіllіm are considered so important that they were incorporated into the פְּסוּקֵי דְּזִמְרָה that precede the morning t'fіllοt (prayers).


Both. Even though the T'hіllіm are associated with Davіd he didn’t actually compose all of them, just the majority.


I don’t really watch television or movies.

In your opinion what’s the best/most important psalms chapter or verses to read?

What’s the overall message for us to take from it?

 

[Koichos]

In your opinion what’s the best/most important psalms chapter or verses to read?

1-150

What’s the overall message for us to take from it?

As the prayer book of the Bible, the original sіddur—praise.

 

[DoubleClutch]

@Koichos can you confirm what he says about the Midrash and the traditions in it about the “evil eye Rabbinic legend and stories?

 

[Koichos]

@DoubleClutch

עַיִן הָרַע `ayіn hara`.. іt’s found throughout ancient Hebrew texts from the Mіshnah, Talmud (G'mara) to the Mіdrashim and the concept is very much a part of Jewish culture. There are also entire ethical principles in the Ḳur´an (e.g., Surah Al-Ma´іdah 5:32) taken directly from the Mіshnah (Treatise Sanhedrіn, ch.4, para. 5 and g'mara ad loc. 37a).

 

[MMS]

Right but aside from the linguistics. What’s the basic context of the scriptures.

Like what’s the meaning to be taken from it?

What’s happening in the chapter?

People (Christians mostly) always quote that verse to make a point but I never really looked into it on a basic level without reading into the text.

well never forget, the psalms are "songs" first

thats why cherry picking them for one line isnt really doing any psalm justice

same with proverbs

but thats why those texts are not necessarily "holy" but the books of Moses are

IE in church there is alot of time using hymnals but are the "hymns" holy? who decides what is "holy"?

the first usage of the term holy is here:

Genesis 2:3 Hebrew Text Analysis

so God set aside a day as holy, but the next time you see the term is in Exodus

and if you dont know, Egypt used a 10 day calendar not a 7 day calendar (which is a Lunar basis)

thats why Jericho is a confusing story...

Bible Gateway passage: 2 Samuel 11 - King James Version

And it came to pass, after the year was expired, at the time when kings go forth to battle, that David sent Joab, and his servants with him, and all Israel; and they destroyed the children of Ammon, and besieged Rabbah. But David tarried still at Jerusalem. And it came to pass in an eveningtide...

www.biblegateway.com

remember the meaning of Uriahs name is "Light of Jah" and in the bronze age Jah was the Moon

Bible Gateway passage: Joshua 6 - King James Version

Now Jericho was straitly shut up because of the children of Israel: none went out, and none came in. And the LORD said unto Joshua, See, I have given into thine hand Jericho, and the king thereof, and the mighty men of valour. And ye shall compass the city, all ye men of war, and go round about...

www.biblegateway.com

but if Jah is not the moon then what?

i know this alot to read, but the debate over time and calendars is actually a huge deal in history depending on who you ask

and while its not expressly implied, but Saul sought to destroy David by any means necessary after setting him against the Philistines...and if im right that he really represents the "Mandrake" how would you fight a killer plant (poison)

so the story about Joseph becomes very interesting as his conception happens after Reuben brings Mandrakes to Leah...and furthermore because he was in Egypt (10 day time) he was separate from his brehthren who were on 7-day time

if you dreamed and time elapsed in the dream (say you fell asleep and woke up inside the same dream) how different would reality appear between the two types of time recording? fundamentally this to me is why the land of Canaan succumbs to famine as the 7-day calendar might be hiding a secret problem

Joshua 6:18 Hebrew Text Analysis

 

[MMS]

@DoubleClutch


if Nehelennia represents Rachab

Spoiler

Genesis 49:6 Hebrew Text Analysis

 

[DoubleClutch]

if you dreamed and time elapsed in the dream (say you fell asleep and woke up inside the same dream) how different would reality appear between the two types of time recording? fundamentally this to me is why the land of Canaan succumbs to famine as the 7-day calendar might be hiding a secret problem

I gotta figure out what this a means in context but I agree

And yea like @Koichos said earlier about psalms it’s all a play/or performance liturgical for the congregation or audience

But I believe the message within the story has a holy origin or meaning

In the same vein, the proto Quran (if you believe it to be) before it was written and developed into the book of “Islam” originated in a same public performance or readings for entertainment/traditional/cultural purposes

Once you realize the Quran rhymes and is often sung when recited so see it for what it is. It’s pretty much a performance based and almost an art form. Granted, this is my opinion from the outside looking in,

But I know plenty Muslims treat it seriously as an art form: spoken like poetry, written like calligraphy, prayer is all performative like you get grades on your form, etc…. It’s all about the image and aesthetics, etc….. these things together which give it the sense of being HOLY.

But we all know being holy is something that originates inward.

 

[MMS]

I gotta figure out what this a means in context but I agree

And yea like @Koichos said earlier about psalms it’s all a play/or performance liturgical for the congregation or audience

But I believe the message within the story has a holy origin or meaning

In the same vein, the proto Quran (if you believe it to be) before it was written and developed into the book of “Islam” originated in a same public performance or readings for entertainment/traditional/cultural purposes

Once you realize the Quran rhymes and is often sung when recited so see it for what it is. It’s pretty much a performance based and almost an art form. Granted, this is my opinion from the outside looking in,

But I know plenty Muslims treat it seriously as an art form: spoken like poetry, written like calligraphy, prayer is all performative like you get grades on your form, etc…. It’s all about the image and aesthetics, etc….. these things together which give it the sense of being HOLY.

But we all know being holy is something that originates inward.

i dont know if thats necessarily true

i know, that what I quoted to you implies that God set aside a day and made it holy because he rested

and the root term Noah is also associated with the term comfort as well (remember Jesus said he would send a comforter...)

Isaiah 40:1 Hebrew Text Analysis

implying Noah and his covenant with him (the act of sleep) is the real firmament between what you know and what you don't know that you don't know

as far as the Quran, if I havent told you this already it was revealed to Muhammad (pbuh) by Gabriel (angel of the moon) to subdue the Pagan arabs to Islam (which means submission)

see this image of Gabriel protecting Abraham for clarity (assume Mohammad is like a form of Abraham and that he represents an archetype)

so this could be interpreted as the first account of people who sleep (as the other "entities" would not sleep and this may be why they become consumed by fire turn into salt etc)

 

[DoubleClutch]

@DoubleClutch

עַיִן הָרַע `ayіn hara`.. іt’s found throughout ancient Hebrew texts from the Mіshnah, Talmud (G'mara) to the Mіdrashim and the concept is very much a part of Jewish culture. There are also entire ethical principles in the Ḳur´an (e.g., Surah Al-Ma´іdah 5:32) taken directly from the Mіshnah (Treatise Sanhedrіn, ch.4, para. 5 and g'mara ad loc. 37a).

Right, so you who really know the Torah, Jewish history and culture can and should see through the standard Islamic story easily.

Understanding Judaism (as well as different Christian sects) prior to the birth of Islam/during the proposed lifetime of Muhammad is key.

I heard a theory that early Muslims and “Islam” was just a creation of Karaite Jews, and different their messianic movements