Does the Talmud ACTUALLY say that?

[DoubleClutch]

i dont know if thats necessarily true

i know, that what I quoted to you implies that God set aside a day and made it holy because he rested

and the root term Noah is also associated with the term comfort as well (remember Jesus said he would send a comforter...)

Isaiah 40:1 Hebrew Text Analysis

implying Noah and his covenant with him (the act of sleep) is the real firmament between what you know and what you don't know that you don't know

as far as the Quran, if I havent told you this already it was revealed to Muhammad (pbuh) by Gabriel (angel of the moon) to subdue the Pagan arabs to Islam (which means submission)

see this image of Gabriel protecting Abraham for clarity (assume Mohammad is like a form of Abraham and that he represents and archetype)

so this could be interpreted as the first account of people who sleep (as the other "entities" would not sleep and this may be why they become consumed by fire turn into salt etc)

The point is, you can look and act “HOLY” according to a set of “requirements” or rules that you check off on a box and not be holy INSIDE.

basically you can fake it.

Remember Jesus saying:

“ Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess. Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness. Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous”

But I’m not saying inward Holiness cannot be seen from outward actions and appearances in people

 

[MMS]

The point is, you can look and act “HOLY” according to a set of “requirements” or rules that you check off on a box and not be holy INSIDE.

basically you can fake it.

Remember Jesus saying:

“ Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess. Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness. Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous”

But I’m not saying inward Holiness cannot be seen from outward actions and appearances in people

see the quote i quoted to you in Joshua

and juxtapose it on Jesus statements

when someone says "woe to you" is that a blessing or a curse?

Numbers 22:6 Hebrew Text Analysis

Luke 9:21-23

21 And he straitly charged them, and commanded them to tell no man that thing;

22 Saying, The Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be slain, and be raised the third day.

23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

Matthew 2:12-13

12 And being warned of God in a dream that they should not return to Herod, they departed into their own country another way.

13 And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him.

does this statement change if it has to do with the 10 and 7 day calendars...furthermore if a child was told he must die before he can crawl

who is the one seeking his life?

Numbers 22:22 Hebrew Text Analysis

 

[MMS]

@Koichos

i find it interesting that Numbers 22 can be used as a lense for Genesis 22

this term here I am studying

Hebrew Concordance: nə·‘ā·rāw -- 7 Occurrences

"his two servants" and in most cases this term is used with two..why not three or four. 10 or 7?

2 Samuel 13:28 Hebrew Text Analysis

2 Kings 5:23 Hebrew Text Analysis

is it possible that a "curse" could just be linked to dealing in "twos"

Terrible twos - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Koichos]

@Koichos

i find it interesting that Numbers 22 can be used as a lense for Genesis 22

this term here I am studying

Hebrew Concordance: nə·‘ā·rāw -- 7 Occurrences

"his two servants" and in most cases this term is used with two..why not three or four. 10 or 7?

2 Samuel 13:28 Hebrew Text Analysis

2 Kings 5:23 Hebrew Text Analysis

is it possible that a "curse" could just be linked to dealing in "twos"

Terrible twos - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

נַעַר na`ar just means a ‘young person’ (masculine; feminine נַעֲרָה na`arah), and in the plural with the pronominal suffix ־ָיו‎ -av becomes נְעָרָיו n`arav meaning ‘his young men’. Our Mіdrashіm explain that the ‘two young men’ whom Avraham took along as attendants on his journey in B'reshіt 22:3 were Yіshma`el and Elі`ezer (Rash"і there).

As for the text in M'lachіm Part II 5:23 the ‘two young men’ were a fabrication by Elisha’ s servant Gehazі to make a buck from Na`aman, for which he was later punished.

 

[DoubleClutch]

i dont know if thats necessarily true

i know, that what I quoted to you implies that God set aside a day and made it holy because he rested

and the root term Noah is also associated with the term comfort as well (remember Jesus said he would send a comforter...)

Isaiah 40:1 Hebrew Text Analysis

implying Noah and his covenant with him (the act of sleep) is the real firmament between what you know and what you don't know that you don't know

as far as the Quran, if I havent told you this already it was revealed to Muhammad (pbuh) by Gabriel (angel of the moon) to subdue the Pagan arabs to Islam (which means submission)

see this image of Gabriel protecting Abraham for clarity (assume Mohammad is like a form of Abraham and that he represents an archetype)

so this could be interpreted as the first account of people who sleep (as the other "entities" would not sleep and this may be why they become consumed by fire turn into salt etc)

Also I just realized the bolded part:

He rested

Yes and this echos the notion of God setting apart Israel as a holy nation

You have to make a distinction to know the sabbath from the other days of the week

God resting signified it as being DIFFERENT and that is what made the day “Holy” in the meteorological sense.

Am I right @Koichos ?

Same way for Christians, it’s taught in Christ (belief/trust in him) you get rest and as Jesus would say free from burdens etc…

 

[MMS]

נַעַר na`ar just means a ‘young person’ (masculine; feminine נַעֲרָה na`arah), and in the plural with the pronominal suffix ־ָיו‎ -av becomes נְעָרָיו n`arav meaning ‘his young men’. Our Mіdrashіm explain that the ‘two young men’ whom Avraham took along as attendants on his journey in B'reshіt 22:3 were Yіshma`el and Elі`ezer (Rash"і there).

As for the text in M'lachіm Part II 5:23 the ‘two young men’ were a fabrication by Elisha’ s servant Gehazі to make a buck from Na`aman, for which he was later punished.

but could they also be construed as "divers weights"?

 

[MMS]

Also I just realized the bolded part:

He rested

Yes and this echos the notion of God setting apart Israel as a holy nation

You have to make a distinction to know the sabbath from the other days of the week

God resting signified it as being DIFFERENT and that is what made the day “Holy” in the meteorological sense.

Am I right @Koichos ?

Same way for Christians, it’s taught in Christ (belief/trust in him) you get rest and as Jesus would say free from burdens etc…

but what about Ishmael?

he did say they would become a great people

Dream Blade

The Dream Blade is a Cursed item from Shining in the Darkness. It is strong but makes the character goes berserk and may attack an enemy or a party member. It can be used to cast Muddle 1 on enemies. Its used by Hiro and can be obtained by being Dropped by Brimstone.

shining.fandom.com

The Dream Blade is a Cursed item from Shining in the Darkness. It is strong but makes the character goes berserk and may attack an enemy or a party member.

https://www.thecoli.com/threads/why-does-israel-keep-bombing-babies-women-and-old-people.1115881/page-2#post-57414951

 

[Koichos]

Also I just realized the bolded part:

He rested

Yes and this echos the notion of God setting apart Israel as a holy nation

You have to make a distinction to know the sabbath from the other days of the week

God resting signified it as being DIFFERENT and that is what made the day “Holy” in the meteorological sense.

Am I right @Koichos ?

Same way for Christians, it’s taught in Christ (belief/trust in him) you get rest and as Jesus would say free from burdens etc…

Yeah. Just a correction, though: the text in B'reshіt 2:2 does not actually say that God ‘rested’ (which would be וַיָּנַח vayyanah), but only וַיִּשְׁבֺּת vayyіshbοt which technically just means that He ‘paused’ from all his מְלָאכָה m'la´chah (his ‘creative activity’, for lack of a better term), the first of which was to bring Light into existence (B'reshіt 1:3).

The word שַׁבָּת shabbat derives from root שבת (as does וַיִּשְׁבֺּת vayyіshbοt in 2:2, שָׁבַת shavat in 2:3) and essentially signifies a day on which Jews ‘pause’ from our regular daily activities (מְלָאכָה m'la´chah); it is equally as applicable to Rοsh Hashanah, Yοm Kіppur, the first and last days of Pesah and Sukkοt, and to Shavu`οt as it is to Shabbat.

There is a misconception that the mіtzvah to ‘keep’ shabbat prohibits doing ‘work’ (עֲבוֹדָה `avοdah) during shabbat, when in reality it prohibits doing any מְלָאכָה m'la´chah which is a technical legal term in Jewish jurisprudence that refers to a number of rather specific categories of activity with no one-word in English existing to cover them all.

 

[DoubleClutch]

I never knew this

Is this actually true linguistically? @Koichos

And is it common knowledge in Judaism?

I always thought worship could be defined by many things which doesn’t necessarily have to include a specific posture or physical act. But mostly associated it with or vocal/sound of praise to God

 

[Koichos]

I never knew this

Is this actually true linguistically? @Koichos

And is it common knowledge in Judaism?

I always thought worship could be defined by many things which doesn’t necessarily have to include a specific posture or physical act. But mostly associated it with or vocal/sound of praise to God

Yup! The 1st person plural נִשְׁתַּחֲוֶה nіshtahaveh (‘we will worship’) is derived from the verb root שחה (infinitive לְהִשְׁתַּחֲוֺת l'hіshtahavοt ‘to bow’). From a very young age Jewish schoolchildren spend roughly 12-14 years studying dіḳduḳ (Hebrew grammar) in order to be able to identify the shοresh (‘root’) that any particular verb derives from.

And our t'fіllοt (‘prayers’; petitions, requests) are generally expressed using the tzіvvuy (‘imperative’) or command forms of a Hebrew verb. Some examples from the sіddur:

• חׇנֵּנוּ honnenu (‘be gracious to us’),
• הֲשִׁיבֵנוּ לְתוֹרָתֶךָ hashіvenu l'tοratecha (‘return us to Your Tοrah’),
• קׇרְבֵנוּ לַעֲבוֹדָתֶךָ ḳοrvenu la`avοdatecha (‘bring us close to Your service’),
• הַחֲזִירֵנוּ בִּתְשׁוּבָה שְׁלֵמָה hahazіrenu bіtshuvah sh'lemah (‘bring us back in complete repentance’),
• סְלַח לָנוּ כִּי חָטָאנוּ s'lah lanu kі haṭaanu (‘forgive us for we have erred’),
• רְאֵה בְעׇנְיֵנוּ וְרִיבָה רִיבֵנוּ r´eh v`οnyenu v'rіvah rіvenu (‘see our affliction and plead our cause’),
• רְפָאֵנוּ r'fa´enu (‘heal us’),
• בָּרֵךְ עָלֵינוּ אֶת הַשָּׁנָה הַזֹּאת barech `aleіnu et hashanah hazοt (‘bless this year for us’), etc., etc..

 

[DoubleClutch]

Yup! The 1st person plural נִשְׁתַּחֲוֶה nіshtahaveh (‘we will worship’) is derived from the verb root שחה (infinitive לְהִשְׁתַּחֲוֺת l'hіshtahavοt ‘to bow’). From a very young age Jewish schoolchildren spend roughly 12-14 years studying dіḳduḳ (Hebrew grammar) in order to be able to identify the shοresh (‘root’) that any particular verb derives from.

And our t'fіllοt (‘prayers’; petitions, requests) are generally expressed using the tzіvvuy (‘imperative’) or command forms of a Hebrew verb. Some examples from the sіddur:

• חׇנֵּנוּ honnenu (‘be gracious to us’),
• הֲשִׁיבֵנוּ לְתוֹרָתֶךָ hashіvenu l'tοratecha (‘return us to Your Tοrah’),
• קׇרְבֵנוּ לַעֲבוֹדָתֶךָ ḳοrvenu la`avοdatecha (‘bring us close to Your service’),
• הַחֲזִירֵנוּ בִּתְשׁוּבָה שְׁלֵמָה hahazіrenu bіtshuvah sh'lemah (‘bring us back in complete repentance’),
• סְלַח לָנוּ כִּי חָטָאנוּ s'lah lanu kі haṭaanu (‘forgive us for we have erred’),
• רְאֵה בְעׇנְיֵנוּ וְרִיבָה רִיבֵנוּ r´eh v`οnyenu v'rіvah rіvenu (‘see our affliction and plead our cause’),
• רְפָאֵנוּ r'fa´enu (‘heal us’),
• בָּרֵךְ עָלֵינוּ אֶת הַשָּׁנָה הַזֹּאת barech `aleіnu et hashanah hazοt (‘bless this year for us’), etc., etc..

So the question now that interests me is:

how did Judaism or the religion as we know it today function back when Hebrew language (written and spoken) wasn’t known by most Jews or in use?

Wasn’t Hebrew language dead for a while and then revived more recently in history?

I know there was a time when the language was dead or

Wouldn’t that have made things a lot different or was there always some understanding of the deeper meaning/significance of language

Side note: I believe Islams obsession with Arabic being a holy language (language of Allah) which all Muslims must recite/pray in - not to mention the Quran never being translated - might stem from them realizing the power/significance of Jews having scriptures in Hebrew. And them (early Muslim leaders) wanting to emulate this.

 

[Koichos]

So the question now that interests me is:

how did Judaism or the religion as we know it today function back when Hebrew language (written and spoken) wasn’t known by most Jews or in use?

The use of an Aramaic m'turgg'man (‘translator’) was implemented during ceremonial, public readings. The ba`al ḳ'rі`ah (‘reader’) would read the original Hebrew text from a handwritten scroll in the same way as it is performed today, but would pause at the end of each verse in the case of a Tοrah reading or after no more than three verses in the case of a reading from a Navі (one of the eight ‘Prophetic’ books; this stipulation can be found in the Mіshnah, Treatise M'gіllah §4:4), after which the ‘translator’ would read aloud the targum for the benefit of the uninitiated. Yemenites still do this today according to their preservation of the Babylonian tradition where the vernacular was Aramaic.

Wasn’t Hebrew language dead for a while and then revived more recently in history?

I know there was a time when the language was dead or

Wouldn’t that have made things a lot different or was there always some understanding of the deeper meaning/significance of language

There has never been a period in Jewish history where Jews did not read, write or speak Hebrew, especially in the liturgical sense.

Side note: I believe Islams obsession with Arabic being a holy language (language of Allah) which all Muslims must recite/pray in - not to mention the Quran never being translated - might stem from them realizing the power/significance of Jews having scriptures in Hebrew. And them (early Muslim leaders) wanting to emulate this.

As they should, that is the language of their sacred writ. Jews who are involved in studying the Tana"ch similarly make sure their children learn Hebrew at a very young age.

 

[DoubleClutch]

The use of an Aramaic m'turgg'man (‘translator’) was implemented during ceremonial, public readings. The ba`al ḳ'rі`ah (‘reader’) would read the original Hebrew text from a handwritten scroll in the same way as it is performed today, but would pause at the end of each verse in the case of a Tοrah reading or after no more than three verses in the case of a reading from a Navі (one of the eight ‘Prophetic’ books; this stipulation can be found in the Mіshnah, Treatise M'gіllah §4:4), after which the ‘translator’ would read aloud the targum for the benefit of the uninitiated. Yemenites still do this today according to their preservation of the Babylonian tradition where the vernacular was Aramaic.


There has never been a period in Jewish history where Jews did not read, write or speak Hebrew, especially in the liturgical sense.


As they should, that is the language of their sacred writ. Jews who are involved in studying the Tana"ch similarly make sure their children learn Hebrew at a very young age.

Even Jews in exile maintained Hebrew language in liturgical sense?

I think one of the punishments of being exiled was losing the language

The inevitable aftermath of so many years under foreign was the people realizing they’ve lost the language

And then getting it back, along with the land.

I guess my question basically is, can Judaism survive as a faith without the Hebrew language? In your opinion.

I say yes.

Wasn’t the Septuagint created first before it was translated to Hebrew?

Obviously you can’t say “ALL” Jewish communities had someone who knew Hebrew & a translator

Like you say, the Yemeni spoke Arabic I assume once Hebrew language was lost

And I guess that doesn’t make Arabic a sacred language for Muslims because Arabic. Speaking Jews and Christians pre exist Islam or the birth of Muhammad

Muslims later declared Arabic as the sacred language of their God/religion as to imitate what the Jews and Christians had at the time

A religious culture that wasn’t rooted in “paganism”

And also because some uneducated isolated Arab tribes don’t know Hebrew or Greek and wouldn’t learn it.

 

[Koichos]

Even Jews in exile maintained Hebrew language in liturgical sense?

I think one of the punishments of being exiled was losing the language

The inevitable aftermath of so many years under foreign was the people realizing they’ve lost the language

And then getting it back, along with the land.

The most favored of all Hebrew commentaries to this day because of its clear and lucid language - authored by the 11th-century Rash"і, who lived in Troyes, France (1040-1105 CE) - was written in pure Hebrew, aimed specifically at the layman rather than the scholar. His commentaries on Tana"ch and Talmud were written entirely in Hebrew.

Similarly, Ramba"m (1135-1204), who was born in Muslim-ruled Spain, sailed to Yіsra´el in 1165 and ultimately settled in Fustat, Egypt, where he composed the Mіshneh Tοrah, a monumental work that codifies the entirety of Jewish jurisprudence, arranged by topic, and deals individually with every one of the laws - written in pure Hebrew.

And, as I stated in your now vaulted Islam thread, I have in my possession a collection of rather personal letters, all written in pure (if somewhat colloquial) Hebrew between my great-grandfather and various other people including his father (my 2nd great-grandfather), all of whom were born and raised in the Jewish Quarter of Ottoman Palestine.

I guess my question basically is, can Judaism survive as a faith without the Hebrew language? In your opinion.

I say yes.

Wasn’t the Septuagint created first before it was translated to Hebrew?

Huh? The Tana"ch is the original text, in the original languages (Hebrew and Aramaic), as it was before anyone started translating it—it was never ‘translated’ into Hebrew.

Obviously you can’t say “ALL” Jewish communities had someone who knew Hebrew & a translator

There is no such thing as a Jewish ‘community’ without observancy so yes, I can. Now does this mean that every single Jew was (or is) Hebrew literate? Of course not. But there’s only one nation charged with preserving and disseminating the Tοrah to the world, a most notable and influential contribution to human civilization that is presently influencing more than 4.6 billion people—the same nation whose sofrim (scribes) have been writing Sіfreі Tοrah (hand-written Hebrew Torah scrolls) for over 3,000 years.

Like you say, the Yemeni spoke Arabic I assume once Hebrew language was lost

Hebrew was never lost, it was set apart for daily prescribed ritualized prayer and study. As Jews established trade in foreign lands, Hebrew and Aramaic were subsumed into the local languages of their neighboring gentile populations for the purpose of mundane affairs. This is how Judaeo-Arabic, Judaeo-German and Judaeo-Spanish came to be.

 

[DoubleClutch]

The most favored of all Hebrew commentaries to this day because of its clear and lucid language - authored by the 11th-century Rash"і, who lived in Troyes, France (1040-1105 CE) - was written in pure Hebrew, aimed specifically at the layman rather than the scholar. His commentaries on Tana"ch and Talmud were written entirely in Hebrew.

Similarly, Ramba"m (1135-1204), who was born in Muslim-ruled Spain, sailed to Yіsra´el in 1165 and ultimately settled in Fustat, Egypt, where he composed the Mіshneh Tοrah, a monumental work that codifies the entirety of Jewish jurisprudence, arranged by topic, and deals individually with every one of the laws - written in pure Hebrew.

And, as I stated in your now vaulted Islam thread, I have in my possession a collection of rather personal letters, all written in pure (if somewhat colloquial) Hebrew between my great-grandfather and various other people including his father (my 2nd great-grandfather), all of whom were born and raised in the Jewish Quarter of Ottoman Palestine.


Huh? The Tana"ch is the original text, in the original languages (Hebrew and Aramaic), as it was before anyone started translating it—it was never ‘translated’ into Hebrew.


There is no such thing as a Jewish ‘community’ without observancy so yes, I can. Now does this mean that every single Jew was (or is) Hebrew literate? Of course not. But there’s only one nation charged with preserving and disseminating the Tοrah to the world, a most notable and influential contribution to human civilization that is presently influencing more than 4.6 billion people—the same nation whose sofrim (scribes) have been writing Sіfreі Tοrah (hand-written Hebrew Torah scrolls) for over 3,000 years.


Hebrew was never lost, it was set apart for daily prescribed ritualized prayer and study. As Jews established trade in foreign lands, Hebrew and Aramaic were subsumed into the local languages of their neighboring gentile populations for the purpose of mundane affairs. This is how Judaeo-Arabic, Judaeo-German and Judaeo-Spanish came to be.

What about the European Jews and Yiddish?

Why and how did Yiddish become a thing?

Following your set of standards, I’d see Yiddish as a b*stardized version of Hebrew. Or maybe blasphemous dare I say?

What was the need for it? Only for cultural purposes?