Does the Talmud ACTUALLY say that?

[DoubleClutch]

In the sense of power and authority, the Davidic King.
In the sense of religion and holiness, the Chief Kοhen.

As for the roles of kingship and priesthood, this is addressed in detail by one Dοn Yіtzhaḳ ‘Abravanel’ (1437-1509 CE) in his Hebrew commentary Nahalat Avοt (‘Inheritance of the Ancestors’, pp. 378f for kingship and pp. 379f for priesthood): 30 prerogatives for kingship and 24 prerogatives for priesthood, simply too extensive a list to post here.

Will the future prophesied messiah be both priest and king?

 

[Koichos]

Will the future prophesied messiah be both priest and king?

No, the King-Mashіyah descends from the royal line of Y'hudah (through Sh'lοmοh) while the Chief Kοhen descends from the aristocratic line of Levі (through Aharοn).

 

[DoubleClutch]

No, the King-Mashіyah descends from the royal line of Y'hudah (through Sh'lοmοh) while the Chief Kοhen descends from the aristocratic line of Levі (through Aharοn).

So only with Melchizedek is a Priest/King possible?

 

[Koichos]

So only with Melchizedek is a Priest/King possible?

During that era? No. Before the Revelation at Mount Hοrev in the Sіnaі Desert the priesthood was the birthright of all firstborn males (Rash"і on Sh'mot 19:22). In fact, it was this very privilege that the wicked `Esav held in such low esteem he was willing to sell it to his younger brother Ya`aḳοv for a piddling bowl of lentil soup (B'reshіt 25:29-34).

Shem, aka ‘Malki-Tzeddeḳ’, was called a ‘priest’ (kοhen) because the ‘priesthood’ (k'hunnah) was originally the birthright of the firstborn son in every family to serve as the family unit’s ‘priest’ (Sh'mοt 13:2, B'mіdbar 3:40), presenting to God the offerings brought by the entire family (Rasa"g’s ‘Emunοt V'de`οt’ §3:9; Rash"i on B'reshіt 25:31).

It wasn’t until Yіsra´el received the Tοrah that the priesthood was given to Mοsheh’s brother, Aharοn (and later specifically to Pіnhas and his descendants), as בְּרִית כְּהֻנַּת עוֹלָם b'rіt k'hunnat `οlam (‘a gift of priesthood forever’, B'mіdbar 25:12), some 40 years after the sin of the golden calf at Mount Hοrev. This is the birthright that still exists today.

 

[DoubleClutch]

During that era? No. Before the Revelation at Mount Hοrev in the Sіnaі Desert the priesthood was the birthright of all firstborn males (Rash"і on Sh'mot 19:22). In fact, it was this very privilege that the wicked `Esav held in such low esteem he was willing to sell it to his younger brother Ya`aḳοv for a piddling bowl of lentil soup (B'reshіt 25:29-34).

Shem, aka ‘Malki-Tzeddeḳ’, was called a ‘priest’ (kοhen) because the ‘priesthood’ (k'hunnah) was originally the birthright of the firstborn son in every family to serve as the family unit’s ‘priest’ (Sh'mοt 13:2, B'mіdbar 3:40), presenting to God the offerings brought by the entire family (Rasa"g’s ‘Emunοt V'de`οt’ §3:9; Rash"i on B'reshіt 25:31).

It wasn’t until Yіsra´el received the Tοrah that the priesthood was given to Mοsheh’s brother, Aharοn (and later specifically to Pіnhas and his descendants), as בְּרִית כְּהֻנַּת עוֹלָם b'rіt k'hunnat `οlam (‘a gift of priesthood forever’, B'mіdbar 25:12), some 40 years after the sin of the golden calf at Mount Hοrev. This is the birthright that still exists today.

Interesting, I never knew this or maybe it’s not really taught so I overlooked it.

I need to read about why the Priesthood was given to Aaron and his descendants specifically… as the story explains it.

But why end the status of the first born? Because Esau ruined it?

And what was the criteria for being a “King” before David?

Couldn’t a descendant of Aaron theoretically have been the first King of Israel?

Or was the appointment of a King something that developed and not necessarily was supposed to be wanted by Israel?

Isn’t the idea that God (Hashem) would be the “King”?

 

[Sccit]

my great-grandfather and various other people including his father (my 2nd great-grandfather), all of whom were born and raised in the Jewish Quarter of Ottoman Palestine.

SO U ARE PART MIZRAHI??????

 

[Koichos]

SO U ARE PART MIZRAHI??????

Half Teimanі
Half Ashk'nazzі
Pure GR"Anik

My 2nd great-grandfather, an ashk'nazzі born in תרכ"ז made `alіyyah in תרל"ז and married my 2nd great-grandmother, a teimanіyyah born in Y'rushalayіm in תרכ"ט; his son and grandson also married teіmanіyyοt. Uncommon then, and marriage already has sufficient mich'sholіm to overcome without throwing into the pot conflicting mіnhagіm.

ביעא ד ע"א הִזָּהֲרוּ בְּמִנְהַג אֲבוֹתֵיכֶם בִּידֵיכֶם − זִמְנִין דְּגָזְרוּ שְׁמָדָא וְאָתֵי לַאֲקִלְקוּלֵי​

I have with me his father’s סדור הגר"א from תרנ"ה and her father’s תכלאל עץ חיים from תרנ"ד. Both have been in our family for six generations and I still use the former today.

 

[Koichos]

Interesting, I never knew this or maybe it’s not really taught so I overlooked it.

I need to read about why the Priesthood was given to Aaron and his descendants specifically… as the story explains it.

But why end the status of the first born? Because Esau ruined it?

As the aristocratic family it is the kοhanіm whose role it is to maintain and discharge certain Tοraіtіc rituals and obligations for all Yіsra´el.

And what was the criteria for being a “King” before David?

See D'varіm 17:14-15.

Couldn’t a descendant of Aaron theoretically have been the first King of Israel?

kingship (head of state) + priesthood (chief religious authority) = sha`atnez! The Hasmonean dynasty was punished for doing just that - taking rulership as kohanіm.

Or was the appointment of a King something that developed and not necessarily was supposed to be wanted by Israel?

Isn’t the idea that God (Hashem) would be the “King”?

God is the מלך מלכי המלכים melech malcheі ham'lachіm (‘the King of all kings of kings’).

 

[DoubleClutch]

Half Teimanі
Half Ashk'nazzі
Pure GR"Anik

My 2nd great-grandfather, an ashk'nazzі born in תרכ"ז made `alіyyah in תרל"ז and married my 2nd great-grandmother, a teimanіyyah born in Y'rushalayіm in תרכ"ט; his son and grandson also married teіmanіyyοt. Uncommon then, and marriage already has sufficient mich'sholіm to overcome without throwing into the pot conflicting mіnhagіm.

I have with me his father’s סדור הגר"א from תרנ"ה and her father’s תכלאל עץ חיים from תרנ"ד. Both have been in our family for six generations and I still use the former today.

Ohhhhh you are part Yemeni Jew?

This explains a lot.

Now I will have much more questions for you

 

[MMS]

During that era? No. Before the Revelation at Mount Hοrev in the Sіnaі Desert the priesthood was the birthright of all firstborn males (Rash"і on Sh'mot 19:22). In fact, it was this very privilege that the wicked `Esav held in such low esteem he was willing to sell it to his younger brother Ya`aḳοv for a piddling bowl of lentil soup (B'reshіt 25:29-34).

Shem, aka ‘Malki-Tzeddeḳ’, was called a ‘priest’ (kοhen) because the ‘priesthood’ (k'hunnah) was originally the birthright of the firstborn son in every family to serve as the family unit’s ‘priest’ (Sh'mοt 13:2, B'mіdbar 3:40), presenting to God the offerings brought by the entire family (Rasa"g’s ‘Emunοt V'de`οt’ §3:9; Rash"i on B'reshіt 25:31).

It wasn’t until Yіsra´el received the Tοrah that the priesthood was given to Mοsheh’s brother, Aharοn (and later specifically to Pіnhas and his descendants), as בְּרִית כְּהֻנַּת עוֹלָם b'rіt k'hunnat `οlam (‘a gift of priesthood forever’, B'mіdbar 25:12), some 40 years after the sin of the golden calf at Mount Hοrev. This is the birthright that still exists today.

something is off about this to me

if Judges says that Othniel (son of Kenaz or Hunter) is the first judge of Israel

and Kenaz is son of Eliphaz, and Eliphaz is son of Esau

that means the first judge of Israel is Esau's great grandson?

how are priests not conflated with hunters?

The amazing name Kenaz: meaning and etymology

An indepth look at the meaning and etymology of the awesome name Kenaz. We'll discuss the original Hebrew, plus the words and names Kenaz is related to, plus the occurences of this name in the Bible.

www.abarim-publications.com

 

[ℒℴѵℯJay ELECTUA]

so you are allowed to marry a 2 month old kid huh!

 

[DoubleClutch]

something is off about this to me

if Judges says that Othniel (son of Kenaz or Hunter) is the first judge of Israel

and Kenaz is son of Eliphaz, and Eliphaz is son of Esau

that means the first judge of Israel is Esau's great grandson?

how are priests not conflated with hunters?

The amazing name Kenaz: meaning and etymology

An indepth look at the meaning and etymology of the awesome name Kenaz. We'll discuss the original Hebrew, plus the words and names Kenaz is related to, plus the occurences of this name in the Bible.

www.abarim-publications.com

The more you read the Bible the more complicated it seems, even as if by design to throw you off… or keep you guessing.

Nobody is perfect, and the message is there somewhere deliberately because clearly the writers easily could’ve cleaned things up and made things not seem contradictory to us today.

But would it still be true and from God?

That’s why Muslims cant understand the “Old Testament” and claim the “bad” or confusing parts are corrupted.

In reality, the “corrupted parts” would be when you try to clean it up and “make it make sense” to you’re limited surface level understanding of how God works.

 

[MMS]

The more you read the Bible the more complicated it seems, even as if by design to throw you off… or keep you guessing.

Nobody is perfect, and the message is there somewhere deliberately because clearly the writers easily could’ve cleaned things up and made things not seem contradictory to us today.

But would it still be true and from God?

That’s why Muslims cant understand the “Old Testament” and claim the “bad” or confusing parts are corrupted.

In reality, the “corrupted parts” would be when you try to clean it up and “make it make sense” to you’re limited surface level understanding of how God works.

complicated does not mean invalid

i think there is a spirit of mine vs yours that escapes you at times when it comes to belief

im just questioning the interpretation

in history, many jews who were exiled went to Susa (an ancient Persian metropolis), and the mongol horde famously made them all drink molten gold when they destroyed the city

im saying the barbarians are present in Judges...as an interpretive lense. Think about it "make them drink gold" because to them all of them were sorcerors. So drinking the gold is like forcing them to accept Eliphaz (My God is Gold)

Spoiler

One of the most consequential loopholes in history didn't involve laws or taxes, but wine cups. This simple trick may have saved all of Europe from conquest.
In the early 13th century AD, Ögedei Khan, the son of the legendary Genghis Khan, ruled over the vast Mongol Empire. While a capable leader, he had a severe weakness for alcohol.

His drinking became so worrying that his brother, Chagatai, intervened. He tried to get Ögedei to swear off alcohol, but when that failed, he managed to limit him to a certain number of cups per day.

But Ögedei found a clever way around the rule. He agreed to the limited number of cups, but then had special, oversized cups made so he could drink just as much as before.
This habit continued unchecked. On a winter night in December 1241, after a long bout of drinking with a companion, Ögedei Khan died at the age of 55.

His death couldn't have come at a more critical moment in world history.
Mongol armies, under the command of General Subutai, were at that very moment sweeping through Europe. They had crushed Polish and Hungarian forces and were poised to push deeper into the continent.

However, Mongol law dictated that all princes of Genghis Khan’s line had to return to the capital to elect a new Great Khan. The invasion of Europe was immediately halted, and the armies turned back.

They never returned. A simple, stubborn act of defiance, born from one man's vice, altered the course of history for an entire continent.

quick aside, i noticed that the name "Edom" in hebrew is really "Eduom" like a "oo" sound. But it is seemingly the same as "Adam" in english but not in hebrew

Hebrew Concordance: ’ĕ·ḏō·wm -- 81 Occurrences

Hebrew Concordance: ’ā·ḏām -- 316 Occurrences

 

[DoubleClutch]

complicated does not mean invalid

i think there is a spirit of mine vs yours that escapes you at times when it comes to belief

im just questioning the interpretation

I think we both agree. (I’m also sure @Koichos understands the point I’m making)

Belief is belief but there is only one correct or should I say BEST interpretation for scripture per se…. But I’m more open minded than you think. I’ll never express some of the alternate interpretations or theories I have.

I like to go hard at the Muslims though and I’m really trying to move away from that angle because it’s no point in “beating a dead horse” and i even feel bad for them. Islam as a religion today is 99% a joke.

That said, I think Islam began as the result of the kinda “religion for dummies” approach to teaching Judaism and Christianity to Arabs with a lot lost in translation and the lack of proper leadership.

And then there’s misunderstandings, corruption and indoctrination over the years by Religious leaders, so called scholars and caliphs/rulers etc….

But I digress…..

I think people interested in or belonging to Abrahamic religions should study the Torah/ Judaism/Jewish history and then Christianity (obviously) and even Islam will be make much more sense.

I’m not sure if Jewish people read the gospels and letter of Paul however

But regarding Muslims, I stand by the belief that without a proper foundation and understanding of the “Torah & Injeel”, you can literally come up with ANY interpretation from the Quran to the point that it’s no more than a book of Arab philosophy/spirituality.

I know this is far off topic, not to derail the original purpose of this thread .

 

[Koichos]

something is off about this to me

if Judges says that Othniel (son of Kenaz or Hunter) is the first judge of Israel

and Kenaz is son of Eliphaz, and Eliphaz is son of Esau

that means the first judge of Israel is Esau's great grandson?

how are priests not conflated with hunters?

The amazing name Kenaz: meaning and etymology

An indepth look at the meaning and etymology of the awesome name Kenaz. We'll discuss the original Hebrew, plus the words and names Kenaz is related to, plus the occurences of this name in the Bible.

www.abarim-publications.com

You’re thinking of `Esav’s grandson K'naz ben Elіfaz (B'reshіt 36:11), one of Edοm’s chieftains (B'reshіt 36:15), an entirely different individual.

The K'naz in Y'hοshu`a is `Οtnіyel’s father (15:17), Kalev’s stepfather (14:6,14) and direct descendant of the royal line Y'hudah (D.H Alef 4:13).