I played in both eras, I played against both of them. Jordan is the #GOAT - Ray Allen

[CHICAGO]

I @CHICAGO REALLY handing out low quality posts negs for folks simply not agreeing with him?

You trash

SO THE 86 CELTICS HAVE BEEN REDUCED TO 5 CACS
YOU LAME ASS nikka?

GO SIT YOUR OLD ASS DOWN SOME WHERE.

THIS THE SAME POSTER THAT SAID
2018 CELTICS>>>86 CELTICS
AND IVE NEVER SEEN YOUR "OBJECTIVE" ASS
CALL HIM OUT.

YOURE A FRAUD.



​

 

[NYC Rebel]

SO THE 86 CELTICS HAVE BEEN REDUCED TO 5 CACS
YOU LAME ASS nikka?

GO SIT YOUR OLD ASS DOWN SOME WHERE.

THIS THE SAME POSTER THAT SAID
2018 CELTICS>>>86 CELTICS
AND IVE NEVER SEEN YOUR "OBJECTIVE" ASS
CALL HIM OUT.

YOURE A FRAUD.



​

Using this site as your own lil opinion board. You trash bro.

Im glad you dont talk football.

 

[CHICAGO]

Using this site as your own lil opinion board. You trash bro.

Im glad you dont talk football.

DONT QUOTE ME HOE nikka.

YOURE A FRAUD.



​

 

[get these nets]

I know what illegal defense is.

The double was objectively bad. Look at the play:



Why is Cooper leaving the Piston's #3 scorer wide open in order to help Kareem with a big man 20 feet from the hoop when there are three other Pistons stacked in the key? Even if you want to double Edwards in that situation, there are THREE Lakers all the way over on the weak side of the floor with their men all in the key. One of them should be bringing the double, it's just stupid to bring the double from the strong side and away from the one guy for whom Edwards can make the easiest pass and who is the hardest for another guy to come and cover.

That's great evidence of what I've said many times before - players had no idea how to double in the 1980s. There was no structure to it, and so they made awful decisions leaving the wrong players wide open in the wrong spots all the time.



The other one is even worse:



So they're triple-teaming Kareem by overplaying him to the WRONG side of the basket??? Dumars and Salley are guarding no one there, they're totally lost, it's basically a 4-on-2 for the rest of the play. How da hell do you create a 4-on-2 in the halfcourt by dumping the ball to a 40-year-old big man 10 feet from the hoop?

That was supposed to be one of the greatest defensive teams of the era, and they repeatedly look lost. It's not like those open players were created by great offensive sets or spacing - there were hardly any 3pt-shooters on the court, there's minimal off-ball movement, and the sets are simple. Defenders just didn't game plan what to do in different situations nearly as effectively as they do today.

Fair points....The vids appear to not be continuous game footage.
And if it's not continous game footage, we can't see what the previous offensive set resulted in.
The decisions to double (and from where) could be based on who is hot offensively...who is cold.

I'll concede that the eye test tells me that bad team defense is being played here..especially from the upstart Pistons. Cooper was a great indvidual defender.....Dumars allegedly was a great individual defender.....Rodman had the makings of a great defender,even at that time..but there's a difference between having good/great defenders on the floor and playing great team defense

 

[Professor Emeritus]

Fair points....The vids appear to not be continuous game footage.
And if it's not continous game footage, we can't see what the previous offensive set resulted in.
The decisions to double (and from where) could be based on who is hot offensively...who is cold.

Yes, it's not continuous game footage....but Edwards was 0-2 for 1 point in the game while Dumars was 9-18 for 25 points.

Kareem was 2-7 for 4 points in the game while Worthy was 15-22 for 36 points.

So no, Kareem and Edwards were NOT the hot hands at any point in that game.

I'll concede that the eye test tells me that bad team defense is being played here..especially from the upstart Pistons. Cooper was a great indvidual defender.....Dumars allegedly was a great individual defender.....Rodman had the makings of a great defender,even at that time..but there's a difference between having good/great defenders on the floor and playing great team defense

This is something that people really don't realize about the 1980s. From watching game footage as well as from the outright statements of players at the time:

Players were not taught how to switch properly on screens.

Players were not taught systematic shifts for bringing double teams, as in who to double off of and how to rotate the other players over.

Threes were rarely guarded until the end of big games, and open jump shots in general were often conceded.

And of course illegal defense rules made stacking the deck against star players much more difficult.

Watch this video:



As the commentators say, the pick-and-roll is one of the most basic ass plays in the game. And when you faced Utah, you KNEW that the Jazz were going to run it 25-30 times a game. So why are teams so unprepared? Sure, Stockton and Malone were GOAT at running it, but running it well doesn't excuse such bad defensive execution.

0:07 Maloney and Willis double Stockton to leave Malone open, but no one rotates to a wide-open Malone on the edge of the key until after he gets the ball?

0:20 Almost worse, caught totally flat-footed and Malone waits open UNDER the basket....why are the Rockets playing like they're seeing a pick-and-roll for the first time?

0:26 Incredible, Indiana manages to guard neither Stockton nor Malone....how do you leave BOTH guys open on the pick-and-roll?

0:33 Minnesota does the same thing! And that's Kevin Garnett! Letting the Jazz chose between Stockton hitting an open free throw or Malone hitting an open layin.

0:40 Scottie looks like he forgets where he should be halfway through the play. Malone just sits there waiting to hit the wide-open 18-foot jumper he was automatic on.

0:51 This is actually the best defense because there was something resembling a rotation, though it was a bit late.


That tape is 7 minutes of that stuff. Today they argue, "Should you switch on the screen or fight through the screen?" In the 1980s and 1990s, they apparently didn't even know how to have the argument yet.


Edit: I just realized, if there is a consistent game plan there, it's, "Let's double the NBA's all-time assist leader to leave the NBA's 2nd all-time scoring leader open."

 

[get these nets]

Yes, it's not continuous game footage....but Edwards was 0-2 for 1 point in the game while Dumars was 9-18 for 25 points.

Kareem was 2-7 for 4 points in the game while Worthy was 15-22 for 36 points.

So no, Kareem and Edwards were NOT the hot hands at any point in that game.




This is something that people really don't realize about the 1980s. From watching game footage as well as from the outright statements of players at the time:

Players were not taught how to switch properly on screens.

Players were not taught systematic shifts for bringing double teams, as in who to double off of and how to rotate the other players over.

Threes were rarely guarded until the end of big games, and open jump shots in general were often conceded.

And of course illegal defense rules made stacking the deck against star players much more difficult.

There were good defensive teams in that era....in terms of team defense and switching/doubling. I want to say the sixers and celtics from slightly older era than the pistons/lakers finals were solid in that way.
might have more to with them having high iq defensive minded point guards orchestrating the defense.....Mo Cheeks and the late DJ. I think the old Bucks teams too.
Coaching has grown leaps and bounds, but I'm certain there were high level defensive principles being used/taught back then . The teams doing it maybe didn't have the talent of the top tier teams.

As the commentators say, the pick-and-roll is one of the most basic ass plays in the game. And when you faced Utah, you KNEW that the Jazz were going to run it 25-30 times a game. So why are teams so unprepared? Sure, Stockton and Malone were GOAT at running it, but running it well doesn't excuse such bad defensive execution.

0:07 Maloney and Willis double Stockton to leave Malone open, but no one rotates to a wide-open Malone on the edge of the key until after he gets the ball?

0:20 Almost worse, caught totally flat-footed and Malone waits open UNDER the basket....why are the Rockets playing like they're seeing a pick-and-roll for the first time?

0:26 Incredible, Indiana manages to guard neither Stockton nor Malone....how do you leave BOTH guys open on the pick-and-roll?

0:33 Minnesota does the same thing! And that's Kevin Garnett! Letting the Jazz chose between Stockton hitting an open free throw or Malone hitting an open layin.

0:40 Scottie looks like he forgets where he should be halfway through the play. Malone just sits there waiting to hit the wide-open 18-foot jumper he was automatic on.

0:51 This is actually the best defense because there was something resembling a rotation, though it was a bit late.


That tape is 7 minutes of that stuff. Today they argue, "Should you switch on the screen or fight through the screen?" In the 1980s and 1990s, they apparently didn't even know how to have the argument yet.


Edit: I just realized, if there is a consistent game plan there, it's, "Let's double the NBA's all-time assist leader to leave the NBA's 2nd all-time scoring leader open."

Good points but Stock & Malone are worst examples to prove your point.
As your video showed......there are at least 4 offensive options when S&M are setting up the PnR.
Pick and roll for layup.....pick and pop for jump shot.....pick and guard shoots...pick and guard drives.

There's no one correct way to guard the play with those two....because they're not always looking to pick and roll for a layup and either are good shooters and at driving to the hoop. They had an insane rapport with each other and able to see where the defense was soft.

Now....the one incorrect way to guard it is to let Malone roam, as I saw multiple times in the clip.Stockton can and will light you up if you sag off him, but he'd much rather pass the ball.

If you showed me some chump players running PnR repeatedly, and puzzled defenders that would do more to prove your point. Instead you showed the masters of the play. Modern PnR is done to create a switch and mismatch....S&M did it to get fast bucket when offense wasn't clicking.

good post, though.

 

[Professor Emeritus]

Good points but Stock & Malone are worst examples to prove your point.
As your video showed......there are at least 4 offensive options when S&M are setting up the PnR.
Pick and roll for layup.....pick and pop for jump shot.....pick and guard shoots...pick and guard drives.

There's no one correct way to guard the play with those two....because they're not always looking to pick and roll for a layup and either are good shooters and at driving to the hoop. They had an insane rapport with each other and able to see where the defense was soft.

Now....the one incorrect way to guard it is to let Malone roam, as I saw multiple times in the clip.Stockton can and will light you up if you sag off him, but he'd much rather pass the ball.

As you say, leaving Malone open is just objectively bad in all circumstances, leaving him open going to the basket is even worse...and teams had years to prepare not to do that...and yet still did it repeatedly. And it wasn't because Stockton/Malone looked to be doing anything special to create that situation, the defensive players just didn't have a plan on what to do.

Now letting Malone roam isn't actually the worst possible...the worst was where Stockton's man gets caught on the screen but doesn't stay with Malone, the big man shows out on Stockton but doesn't follow, and they BOTH end up in no-man's land with neither guarding either one of the star players...and that happened multiple times in the first minute alone. Then you have an all-time great shooter open at about the free throw line and an all-time great scorer cutting to the basket. And there was no clear reason for it. Why should the big man not follow Stockton if he's also not going to get back to Malone? Why should Stockton's guy not stay with Malone if he's not going to fight through the screen to stay with Stockton? They don't know what they're doing.

There are pickup games in gyms I played in where I would have gotten screamed at by my point guard if I had blown a play like that, and I'm talking junior varsity d3 level guys, not professionals.

 

[holidayinn21]

"defenses are harder today"

Funniest shyt I've ever heard. I'm not even sure how this lie came about

Marshon Brooks was out of the league for 4 years and came back looking like top-5 SG.

Klay Thompson dribbled 11 times to score 60 fukking points.

But defenses are harder. fukk outta here

 

[get these nets]

There are pickup games in gyms I played in where I would have gotten screamed at by my point guard if I had blown a play like that, and I'm talking junior varsity d3 level guys, not professionals.

Here is also a game 7.....bucks/celtics ecsf 1987..full game



look at the defensive rotations........the double teams....the traps...the switches....the boxing out on rebounds

2 great coaches..........kc jones coaching against don nelson

 

[Professor Emeritus]

Here is also a game 7.....bucks/celtics ecsf 1987..full game



look at the defensive rotations........the double teams....the traps...the switches....the boxing out on rebounds

2 great coaches..........kc jones coaching against don nelson

I watched the first 8 minutes, and my thoughts:

What you say about better team defense is absolutely true. While the offenses are making it relatively easy on them by not running a lot of off-ball movement, the defensive play is FAR better than in the other games I was posting, with smart traps and strong movement. That was much more impressive.

The amount of fast breaks were still way over the top. At the 8-minute mark there had already been 16 of 36 points scored on fast breaks, and another handful on near-fast breaks before the defense was set. Defenders definitely weren't getting back with enough urgency, or perhaps just lacked the athleticism.

Touch fouls!

Now, I'll give you that in a Game 7 in the playoffs between two great, well-coached defensive teams, reasonably intelligent defense could be played. Now, is that the kind of defense that guys are racking up their regular season averages against though?

 

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

"defenses are harder today"

Funniest shyt I've ever heard. I'm not even sure how this lie came about

Marshon Brooks was out of the league for 4 years and came back looking like top-5 SG.

Klay Thompson dribbled 11 times to score 60 fukking points.

But defenses are harder. fukk outta here

What does his dribble count v. points scored have to do with the notion defense isn't better today?

Klay's not only arguably the best catch-and-shoot marksmen in the league, but the best ever, so naturally someone of his class isn't going to dribble much to score a lot of points - he's averaged 20+ ppg over the last 4-5 seasons. Second of all, very few in history have a release time as quick as his (0.77), take a look at all the fastest sharpshooters in the league and see how many more 3-pt shots he manages to put up and the completion rate on those shots -

Combine that with playing in one of the greatest systems, where ball-movement/player movement is on another level to any team from previous eras and you'll get nights where he just goes off. Imagine him playing against defenses from previous eras that didn't defend the 3-pt line like they do today, imagine him playing against defenses from previous eras that wouldn't have any concept of defending a team like the Warriors, imagine him playing against defenses from previous eras who largely stood around while the offense would exhaust 1v1 opportunities on the block, imagine him playing against defenses from previous eras that benefitted from defending fewer moving pieces on offense.

For comparison -





Look at how many parts are moving on offense for the Warriors to generate open looks, compared to Reggie's Pacers and Dantley's Jazz (the latter in particular), and yet despite Klay's team moving the ball more, setting more screens, and having greater off-ball activity than the other two teams in question, the defense still manages to contest jumpshots at a higher rate all over the floor, than what Reggie and Dantley came up against. Just imagine what Klay/Warriors could do against those other two defenses from the 80s/90s when they struggled to even defend the most simplistic of offenses.

 

[Marc Spector]

There is literally no arguement for Lebron being the GOAT.

Jordan became the goat because yea he put up monster stats, but he WON

It went from Lebron can never be goat after 2011 to him suddenly being considered goat while loosing 4 more times in the finals.

That nikka lost to a 40 year Tim Duncan, and just barely beat him the 1st time.

LOL because those spurs teams were bums right?

Because Jordan and the rest of 90s players were super saiyans who would roll every team EVER right?

Thats the most annoying thing about Jordan stans. Yes the nikka was good but to think he and the rest of the 90s players were the pinnacle of basketball skill and athleticism is absurd.

 

[Copy Ninja]

Majority of ex NBA players have said MJ > Bron

Majority of players who have played against Bron and Kobe have said Kobe > Bron.

Yet these Bron stans know better

 

[High quality poster]

LOL because those spurs teams were bums right?

Because Jordan and the rest of 90s players were super saiyans who would roll every team EVER right?

Thats the most annoying thing about Jordan stans. Yes the nikka was good but to think he and the rest of the 90s players were the pinnacle of basketball skill and athleticism is absurd.

Yes Michael Jordan was the pinnacle of basketball so far. Kobe came close but he did not surpass the goat. Curry had one year where he was Godly but he didn’t surpass the Goat. Someone will one day but Lebron is not that guy

 

[DoubleClutch]

The debate is over. Let’s stop arguing this.
Even Lebron has moved on to movies & politics he knows creating a lasting legacy outside basketball is what’s worth pursuing now, not chasing Jordan.