Question for agnostic brehs

[Farrinto]

No records?

Ipuwer Papyrus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Most Egyptologists reject it referencing the Exodus according to the wiki and it still doesn't account for Pharaoh dying and the deaths of the firstborn. Another thing - Why would God allow scriptures that portray him in a negative light? A lot of people reject the Bible because it features God doing some evil acts. The Passover story for example or the various times where he called Israel to slaughter other nations. Being all-knowing, he'd know in advance that people would reject him based on things like that.

 

[tmonster]

I thought I had you ignore...I don't think I ever read anything insightful from you. I'm going to correct this oversight now.

but it's true

 

[Soon]

Most Egyptologists reject it referencing the Exodus according to the wiki and it still doesn't account for Pharaoh dying and the deaths of the firstborn. Another thing - Why would God allow scriptures that portray him in a negative light? A lot of people reject the Bible because it features God doing some evil acts. The Passover story for example or the various times where he called Israel to slaughter other nations. Being all-knowing, he'd know in advance that people would reject him based on things like that.

It states "Enmarch himself rejects synchronizing the texts on grounds of historicity." But..

1) The date for the composition of this document is unknown.
2) The papyrus itself (Papyrus Leiden I 344) is a copy made during the New Kingdom of Egypt[1] (18th, 19th and 20th Dynasties, c.1543-1064 BCE).
3) The dating of the original composition of the poem is disputed, but several scholars have suggested a date between the late 6th dynasty and the Second Intermediate Period (ca. 1850 BCE-1600 BCE)
4) There are also conflicts between Ipuwer and the biblical account, such as Ipuwer‍ 's lamentation of an Asiatic (Semitic) invasion rather than a mass departure. <----(Brooklyn Papyrus and Admonitions of an Egyptian Sage add further insight)
5) Examining what Enmarch calls "the most extensively posited parallel", the river becoming blood, he notes that it should not be taken "absolutely literally" as a description of an event but that both Ipuwer and Exodus might be metaphorically describing what happens at times of catastrophic Nile floods when the river is carrying large quantities of red earth.

Exodus 20:13 States You shall not murder. Its depends on whether you view any killing during a war or battle as a "murder" or as a "casualty". Many battles were fought in the Old Testament, how you feel about those killings depends on your views about war.

 

[Soon]

I haven't read any of Dr. Jerald Dirks books. But this is an interesting video, he was an ordained Christian Preacher that converted to Islam.

@Chez Lopez

Why did I choose Islam?

Why I'm no longer a Christian?

Dr Jerald Dirks is our guest on today's show, Dr. Dirks received his Bachelor of Arts (philosophy) from Harvard College in 1971, his Master of Divinity from Harvard Divinity School in 1974, his Master of Arts (clinical child psychology) from the University of Denver in 1976, his Doctor of Psychology (Psy.D.) degree in clinical psychology from the University of Denver in 1978, and his sessions program certificate in Islamic studies from Imam Muhammad ibn Saud Islamic University in 1998.

In 1969, he obtained his License to Preach from the United Methodist Church and was ordained into the Christian ministry (deaconate) by the United Methodist Church in 1972.

He converted to Islam in 1993 and completed the 'Umrah and Hajj in 1999.

His vocational history includes over five years teaching in American colleges and universities and over 20 years spent in the private practice of psychotherapy. In addition, he has taught at the middle school level at two different private Islamic schools and has served as the psychoeducational consultant at one private Islamic school.

Dr. Dirks is the author or co-author of over 60 published articles in the behavioral sciences (primarily in psychosomatic medicine), over 140 published articles on the Arabian horse and its history, and over 220 published articles or formal presentations on Islam, comparative religion, and private Islamic education in America.

He has lectured widely on Islam at American universities (Tabor College, University of Kansas, University of Denver, Oklahoma State University, Missouri State University, Wayne State University, University of Michigan, University of Pittsburgh, University of Alabama at Birmingham, and Georgetown University), in American mosques (in Arizona, California, Colorado, Georgia, Illinois, Kansas, Michigan, New York, Oklahoma, Pennsylvania, Tennessee, Texas, Utah, and Virginia), and at regional and national conventions of the major Islamic organizations (ISNA, ICNA, and MAS).

In addition, he has been interviewed about Islam by newspapers in California, Colorado, Missouri, and Saudi Arabia and by television stations in Kansas, New York, Texas, Utah, Canada, and the United Arab Emirates. He is the author of four books that explore the commonalities and differences among the three Abrahamic religions (Islam, Christianity, and Judaism): The Cross and the Crescent, now in its second printing; Abraham, The Friend of God; Understanding Islam--A Guide for the Judaeo-Christian Reader; and The Abrahamic Faiths--Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.

His fifth book, Muslims in American History--A Forgotten Legacy was published in 2006 and celebrates the centuries-old history of Muslims in America. His sixth book, Letters to My Elders in Islam, was published in 2008. Dr. Dirks has also proofread and/or edited several books for other authors.

VIDEO: youtube.com/watch?v=KTqrOurm8KU

 

[Chez Lopez]

It states "Enmarch himself rejects synchronizing the texts on grounds of historicity." But..

1) The date for the composition of this document is unknown.
2) The papyrus itself (Papyrus Leiden I 344) is a copy made during the New Kingdom of Egypt[1] (18th, 19th and 20th Dynasties, c.1543-1064 BCE).
3) The dating of the original composition of the poem is disputed, but several scholars have suggested a date between the late 6th dynasty and the Second Intermediate Period (ca. 1850 BCE-1600 BCE)
4) There are also conflicts between Ipuwer and the biblical account, such as Ipuwer‍ 's lamentation of an Asiatic (Semitic) invasion rather than a mass departure. <----(Brooklyn Papyrus and Admonitions of an Egyptian Sage add further insight)
5) Examining what Enmarch calls "the most extensively posited parallel", the river becoming blood, he notes that it should not be taken "absolutely literally" as a description of an event but that both Ipuwer and Exodus might be metaphorically describing what happens at times of catastrophic Nile floods when the river is carrying large quantities of red earth.

Exodus 20:13 States You shall not murder. Its depends on whether you view any killing during a war or battle as a "murder" or as a "casualty". Many battles were fought in the Old Testament, how you feel about those killings depends on your views about war.

Another thing to consider is that most powerful nations do not record their losses. After such a devastating defeat in Egypt it is extremely unlikely that Pharaoh records his defeat, especially in such dramatic fashion. Instead it is recorded that they removed a group of semites from Goshen.

What people do not understand about the old testament is that all the other nations are evil nations, and were punished for their wickedness by Israel. Israel was given Canaan not for their righteousness, but for the wickedness of Canaan (Deuteronomy 9:5). Like America today the other nations were demonically bound to other deities and routinely performed ritual sacrifice and temple prostitution. The other nations worshipped devils and so they were removed, but not before having an opportunity to repent, as the city of Nineveh did (for a time) in the book of Jonah. Yahuah sanctified a nation to bear His offspring, and though they were too wicked, there was always a righteous seed through where the Messiah could be born through. Israel's wickedness also caused them to be removed from their land and scattered to the four corners, as we are today.

 

[Soon]

Another thing to consider is that most powerful nations do not record their losses. After such a devastating defeat in Egypt it is extremely unlikely that Pharaoh records his defeat, especially in such dramatic fashion. Instead it is recorded that they removed a group of semites from Goshen.

Dates are all screwed up from that time period, even the Ipuwer Papyrus they believe is from a time period between 1600 BCE and 2300 BCE (that's 600 years). So I don't know how they can not pin point dates, but they can say Biblical events did not occur. I saw a good documentary on Netflix where other Archaeologists feel the same way towards Egyptologist and their assumptions.

I do think the lose was recorded, because shortly after the Exodus, Egypt were invaded and did not put up much of a fight because they felt the "Gods" abandoned them, this is according to Admonitions of an Egyptian Sage.

Also, during Ramesses II's rule there are writings on a wall that already acknowledge Israel, so the Children of Israel were gone.

 

[Chez Lopez]

I was never religious in the sense that I was never in any religious groups. I used to just call myself a Christian because everyone else did it, and I thought that if it was the biggest religion in the world, it must be true Needless to say, after reading the Bible, I do not believe that the Abrahamic God exists. Anyway, I do believe that a god may exist but I'm sort of doubtful about it. I feel like if God never interacted with humans like the Bible, Koran, Torah, or any other religious book says, then God must be a man-made concept that was created somewhere down the line. For the agnostics in here, what is your reason for believing that a god may exist? Why aren't you just an Atheist?

Since we know the Creator exists and created humankind, then we also know that He would interact and be directly involved with HIs creation. It is common sense that a Father would actively care for His sons. The entire biblical narrative is common sense psychology of the Father, from His viewpoint. This is the most amazing thing in the world because it is not difficult to understand, which means He is as we are, a consciousness, a being, a personality.

We think of what people call 'God' as being some sort of softy or punk who should cater to our own personal whims or feelings. A good father is not like that so our Heavenly Father is also not this way. This is why people reject Him, because like children many of us reject the teachings of our fathers. If He doesn't behave as we expect or want, we then become disobedient. Simple psychology of a Father/son relationship.

Abrahamic religions make up approximately 4 billion people of the world today, half of the world's population (2b Christians, 1.8b muslims and a couple dozen million jews). We then have four billion witnesses to the validity of Abraham, in a court of law a slam dunk verification of truth. This however does not mean that any major religion did it correctly, asd they all are corrupted into pagan practices. This is also evidence of validity of another truth of the bible, the devil. It is verifiable through historical evidence that Jesus was not the name of the Saviour, His Name is Yahusha. Since the Name of the Son is an important tool for salvation (acts 4:12 and john 1:12) the Name should have been preserved specifically by the cultures promoting Christianity. Instead the Name has been suppressed, changed, blotted out, renamed and disputed in every language and culture around the globe. The same for the name of the Father. Each of the three richest religions have distorted the names tot he point of rejection and falsehood, just as the third commandment instructs against.

This seemingly simple fact must not be over looked. In the buddist and Hindu religions the name of their gods is preserved indefinitely, and remained common through a variety of dialects and indian languages, but in the Abrahamic religions, which are commanded to do the same, it is not so. this means there is a deliberate alteration of worship style in three separate successful religions based on the same figure and Deity. Not only that, these deliberate alterations have been maintained, in their error, for millennia. This means even the altered information is SO POWERFUL that it worked to control masses in three separate scenarios. This means the original, true story is the most powerful information in the world. So something is suppressing the Name of the Deity and the Name of His Son, but wants to continue to use the material because of its inherent power. We are witnessing what could only be the devil, an eternal being, consistently altering true Torah worship through generation after generation, but maintaining the material. This is proof positive of the entire biblical narrative.

 

[Chez Lopez]

Dates are all screwed up from that time period, even the Ipuwer Papyrus they believe is from a time period between 1600 BCE and 2300 BCE (that's 600 years). So I don't know how they can not pin point dates, but they can say Biblical events did not occur. I saw a good documentary on Netflix where other Archaeologists feel the same way towards Egyptologist and their assumptions.

I do think the lose was recorded, because shortly after the Exodus, Egypt were invaded and did not put up much of a fight because they felt the "Gods" abandoned them, this is according to Admonitions of an Egyptian Sage.

Also, during Ramesses II's rule there are writings on a wall that already acknowledge Israel, so the Children of Israel were gone.

right. Egyptology specifically states that Israel was in Egypt, though they cannot specifically state, through Egypt, the dates of arrival and departure. The bible however fills in the blanks and misinformation. It is weird that they rely so heavily on Egyptian records, and not at all on biblical record, especially when they record the same events.

 

[Farrinto]

Another thing to consider is that most powerful nations do not record their losses. After such a devastating defeat in Egypt it is extremely unlikely that Pharaoh records his defeat, especially in such dramatic fashion. Instead it is recorded that they removed a group of semites from Goshen.

I can't believe that Egypt would refuse to record that because of their embarrassment of losing. They were struck by God, they literally couldn't deny Yahweh's existence at that point. Why would they not record it? Why wouldn't they just worship the God of Israel after that?

What people do not understand about the old testament is that all the other nations are evil nations, and were punished for their wickedness by Israel. Israel was given Canaan not for their righteousness, but for the wickedness of Canaan (Deuteronomy 9:5). Like America today the other nations were demonically bound to other deities and routinely performed ritual sacrifice and temple prostitution. The other nations worshipped devils and so they were removed, but not before having an opportunity to repent, as the city of Nineveh did (for a time) in the book of Jonah. Yahuah sanctified a nation to bear His offspring, and though they were too wicked, there was always a righteous seed through where the Messiah could be born through. Israel's wickedness also caused them to be removed from their land and scattered to the four corners, as we are today.

If God is all powerful, then why not just snap his fingers and make them into righteous people? I can't believe that a supposed God that is infinitely smarter than even the smartest human that ever lived couldn't think of a better plan than to slaughter all of the men, women, and children of other nations that he supposedly created. After all, He never revealed himself to them. For all they knew, they were doing the right thing.

 

[Farrinto]

Dates are all screwed up from that time period, even the Ipuwer Papyrus they believe is from a time period between 1600 BCE and 2300 BCE (that's 600 years). So I don't know how they can not pin point dates, but they can say Biblical events did not occur. I saw a good documentary on Netflix where other Archaeologists feel the same way towards Egyptologist and their assumptions.

Archaeologists combed through Egypt and the desert that the Israelites were supposedly in and the evidence just isn't there to support the biblical narrative.

 

[Dr. Sebi Jr.]

The scoffing in this thread.

 

[Farrinto]

Since we know the Creator exists and created humankind, then we also know that He would interact and be directly involved with HIs creation.

But he isn't. If God was all-powerful, he could just beam a message in the sky or have everyone in the world have a mass revelation at once and there'd be no doubt that he existed.

This is why people reject Him, because like children many of us reject the teachings of our fathers. If He doesn't behave as we expect or want, we then become disobedient. Simple psychology of a Father/son relationship.

I'd say that most people reject Him simply because there's no proof that He exists. What more proof is there for Yahweh or Allah's existence than there is for Zeus or even Santa Claus?

Abrahamic religions make up approximately 4 billion people of the world today, half of the world's population (2b Christians, 1.8b muslims and a couple dozen million jews). We then have four billion witnesses to the validity of Abraham, in a court of law a slam dunk verification of truth. This however does not mean that any major religion did it correctly, asd they all are corrupted into pagan practices. This is also evidence of validity of another truth of the bible, the devil.

The amount of people that believe in it doesn't have any bearing on its validity. Many kids believe in the tooth fairy, does that make her real? For an evil figure, Satan actually killed less in the Bible than God did.

 

[thaKEAF]

 

[Farrinto]

I haven't read any of Dr. Jerald Dirks books. But this is an interesting video, he was an ordained Christian Preacher that converted to Islam.

@Chez Lopez

Interesting video but he just hopped from one irrational belief system to an even more irrational belief system.

 

[Soon]

Archaeologists combed through Egypt and the desert that the Israelites were supposedly in and the evidence just isn't there to support the biblical narrative.

This is still disputed, especially since the timeline is so screwed up, but that's something I'm not going to get into now.

Check out Bert Ehrman, he became Atheist after getting his PH.D. in Biblical studies, he is a professor at UNC and is a well respected Biblical Scholar. Also, check out his YouTube page. I'm a devout Christian, but I've learned a lot from scholars, archeaologist, Priest, and Rabbis.

This a good debate against Daniel Wallace, Ehrman really goes into some weaknesses of the Bible.