Since 1987, an astonishing 52 rappers have been murdered, with only a handful of them solved.

[Taadow]

What did Rakim do?

What did Big Daddy Kane do?

What did Slick Rick do?

Now, tell me Vanilla Ice is more "accomplished" than them nikkaz in Hip-Hop

Rakim, Big Daddy Kane, and Slick Rick were all different and added something to the game.
I can sit here and list their accomplishments, but I feel like you don't care about that.
If you really wanna get into their contributions, we can talk about 'em...



But what did Big L accomplish in the rap game? Why don't you wanna awnser that?

 

[BobbyBooshay]

"Sprinkle some crack on them"

 

[The Amerikkkan Idol]

Rakim, Big Daddy Kane, and Slick Rick were all different and added something to the game.
I can sit here and list their accomplishments, but I feel like you don't care about that.
If you really wanna get into their contributions, we can talk about 'em...



But what did Big L accomplish in the rap game? Why don't you wanna awnser that?

Ohhhh, so now it's "contributions", which didn't matter when you were arguing that the only things that matter was record sales and awards.

And I already answered the question about what Big L accomplished. Dude is considered one of the GREATEST MCs of ALL-TIME. The dude is often put on a list by people within the culture with Biggie, Jay-Z, Rakim, 2pac, Nas, and others off of ONE album in life. Dude influenced the next generation of MCs. THAT is a contribution.

Name ONE decent rapper influenced by the Insane Clown Posse. Name ONE.

THAT is what accomplishment is in Hip-Hop. That is what Slick Rick, Kane, and Rakim did. They didn't sell a ton of records, they just influenced generations of MCs, just like L is doing when you see him on all-time greatest MC's lists.

 

[ThugLife]

 

[Taadow]

Ohhhh, so now it's "contributions", which didn't matter when you were arguing that the only things that matter was record sales and awards.

Sure "contributions" mattered, I would use that word interchangeably with "accomplishments"...

And I already answered the question about what Big L accomplished. Dude is considered one of the GREATEST MCs of ALL-TIME. The dude is often put on a list by people within the culture with Biggie, Jay-Z, Rakim, 2pac, Nas, and others off of ONE album in life. Dude influenced the next generation of MCs. THAT is a contribution.

That's not an "accomplishment" or a "contribution". That's an "opinion".

If you find a bunch of folks who agree with that, that would make it a "popular opinion", but still not an "accomplishment"
or a "contribution". The difference between those is you can prove an "accomplishment" or "contribution" - thereby using
those as foundation for your "opinion".

Saying that, can you PROVE to me that "Big L influenced the next generation of MCs"?

Name ONE decent rapper influenced by the Insane Clown Posse. Name ONE.

Eminem.
Most people (myself included) may not have ever heard of Insane Clown Posse if it wasn't for Eminem's music.

THAT is what accomplishment is in Hip-Hop. That is what Slick Rick, Kane, and Rakim did. They didn't sell a ton of records, they just influenced generations of MCs, just like L is doing when you see him on all-time greatest MC's lists.

I still have yet to see or hear of Big L on "all-time greatest MC's lists".
Who is putting Big L on their all-time lists?

 

[The Amerikkkan Idol]

Sure "contributions" mattered, I would use that word interchangeably with "accomplishments"...



That's not an "accomplishment" or a "contribution". That's an "opinion".

If you find a bunch of folks who agree with that, that would make it a "popular opinion", but still not an "accomplishment"
or a "contribution". The difference between those is you can prove an "accomplishment" or "contribution" - thereby using
those as foundation for your "opinion".

Saying that, can you PROVE to me that "Big L influenced the next generation of MCs"?



Eminem.
Most people (myself included) may not have ever heard of Insane Clown Posse if it wasn't for Eminem's music.



I still have yet to see or hear of Big L on "all-time greatest MC's lists".
Who is putting Big L on their all-time lists?

Dude, Eminem was not influenced by ICP. He hated ICP, remember?

And who has Big L influenced? Really?

Per Wikipedia

Henry Adaso, a music journalist for About.com, called him the twenty-third best MC of 1987 to 2007, claiming "[he was] one of the most auspicious storytellers in hip hop history."[51] HipHop DX called Coleman "the most underrated lyricist ever".[7]

Many tributes have been given to Coleman. The first was by Lord Finesse and the other members of DITC on March 6, 1999 at the Tramps.[3] The Source has done multiple tributes to him: first in July 2000[52] followed by March 2002.[53] XXL did a tribute to Lamont in March 2003.[54] On February 16, 2005, at SOB's restaurant and nightclub in Manhattan, held a commemoration for him.[55] It included special guests such as DITC, Herb McGruff, and Kid Capri.[55] All the money earned went to his estate.[55]In 2004, Eminem made a tribute to him in his music video for his single, Like Toy Soldiers. Rapper Mac Miller called Big L as an inspiration and rapper The Game (rapper) had mentioned Big Ls Legacy and death in The Documentary 2.5

 

[Taadow]

Dude, Eminem was not influenced by ICP. He hated ICP, remember?

As I said - "influence" is a funny word.

And who has Big L influenced? Really?

Per Wikipedia

Henry Adaso, a music journalist for About.com, called him the twenty-third best MC of 1987 to 2007, claiming "[he was] one of the most auspicious storytellers in hip hop history."[51] HipHop DX called Coleman "the most underrated lyricist ever".[7]

Many tributes have been given to Coleman. The first was by Lord Finesse and the other members of DITC on March 6, 1999 at the Tramps.[3] The Source has done multiple tributes to him: first in July 2000[52] followed by March 2002.[53] XXL did a tribute to Lamont in March 2003.[54] On February 16, 2005, at SOB's restaurant and nightclub in Manhattan, held a commemoration for him.[55] It included special guests such as DITC, Herb McGruff, and Kid Capri.[55] All the money earned went to his estate.[55]In 2004, Eminem made a tribute to him in his music video for his single, Like Toy Soldiers. Rapper Mac Miller called Big L as an inspiration and rapper The Game (rapper) had mentioned Big Ls Legacy and death in The Documentary 2.5

lmao - Henry Adaso?? Who in the bloody black fucc is that?
Is that who you were talkin' about earlier? Is he part of the "certified brain trust", or "certified real nikkaz"? ROFLMMAO

XXL did a tribute for him? They do it for most rappers who die. They did one for Freaky Tah...
Oh - SOB's had a commemoration for him? And his friends were there? Great.
I don't even remember that Em video...
Mac Miller was influenced by him? How?
The Game mentions everybody. LMAO


Come on mayne...you can't be serious.

Look at it like this - you talkin' to somebody and you say "Big L is arguably a top 30 rapper".
They say "why?"

What do you say?

 

[↓R↑LYB]

Get the fukk outta here - if you actually believe what you just said is anything more than an anecdotal fallacy you're completely delusional. Your point of reference doesn't define reality and the reality is nobody's sustaining a 15 year career of making music without people that are fans of what they do. In this case Mac Dre's music has yielded a cult-like fan base, it's not for everybody but he made a unique brand of music that is one of a kind

The following albums from that list are better than any Big L album (you're talking to somebody who ran one of Big L's biggest fan sites 10 years ago)

Young Black Brotha (compare to Doggystyle . . no basis for any comparison with Big L's work)

Al Boo Boo
Ronald Dregan: Dreganomics
The Genie of the Lamp
The Game Is Thick, Vol. 2

. . there's absolutely no basis for a comparison of Big L to Mac Dre and to assert that Big L is on the same level of Mac Dre is absolutely ludicrous - despite your own tastes in music, you should have the maturity to respect what somebody's done. Your personal experience with his music is nothing more than an isolated example and can't be used to dismiss the resounding reality of his extensive fan base


so you can with that

Let me guess, you're from Oakland

 

[Mac Casper]

Let me guess, you're from Oakland

Nice try . . no

 

[The Amerikkkan Idol]

As I said - "influence" is a funny word.



lmao - Henry Adaso?? Who in the bloody black fucc is that?
Is that who you were talkin' about earlier? Is he part of the "certified brain trust", or "certified real nikkaz"? ROFLMMAO

XXL did a tribute for him? They do it for most rappers who die. They did one for Freaky Tah...
Oh - SOB's had a commemoration for him? And his friends were there? Great.
I don't even remember that Em video...
Mac Miller was influenced by him? How?
The Game mentions everybody. LMAO


Come on mayne...you can't be serious.

Look at it like this - you talkin' to somebody and you say "Big L is arguably a top 30 rapper".
They say "why?"

What do you say?

I would say the same thing I'd say if you asked me why Big Daddy Kane or Big Pun or Kool G. Rap is a top 30 rapper. He was an ill MC. Lyrically top notch.

Something I would NOT be saying about the Insane Clown Posse

This is HIp-Hop. You keep trying to reach for "accomplishment" and in Hip-Hop there is no such thing as "accomplishment" other than the music you make and the lyrics that you spit.

The record he made in life "Lifestyles of da Poor & Dangerous" is considered a classic record by many people. He spit verses full of quotables.

He's been dead for 20 years and plenty of people still consider him one of the greatest rappers of all-time based on lyrics that he spit.

I don't know what else an "accomplishment" can be in Hip-Hop. Beats and rhymes are supposed to be all that matters.

But if you're one of these people like yourself that thinks that Grammys and platinum plaques are "accomplishments" then I guess Hammer and Vanilla Ice are 2 of the most accomplished rappers of all-time. Iggy Azalea and Macklemore are super accomplished too. Way more accomplished than Rakim.

 

[Taadow]

I would say the same thing I'd say if you asked me why Big Daddy Kane or Big Pun or Kool G. Rap is a top 30 rapper. He was an ill MC. Lyrically top notch.

Something I would NOT be saying about the Insane Clown Posse

I wouldn't say that about Insane Clown Posse, either...

...but that's not the point.

My point is, there are dozens of ill MCs that are lyrically top notch...but what have they done with those
"top notch skills"? What do they have to show for them? That's the crux of this argument.

You shoot yourself in the foot by comparing MCs with nothing to show for their skills to MCs who do have
something to show for their efforts. You can't take those things away from them...

This is HIp-Hop. You keep trying to reach for "accomplishment" and in Hip-Hop there is no such thing as "accomplishment" other than the music you make and the lyrics that you spit.

I'm not trying to "reach" for accomplishment - that's the gottdamn topic. LOL

The record he made in life "Lifestyles of da Poor & Dangerous" is considered a classic record by many people. He spit verses full of quotables.

He's been dead for 20 years and plenty of people still consider him one of the greatest rappers of all-time based on lyrics that he spit.

Finally.

Okay - Big L made a record that is considered by many to be a classic.
That takes work, and it is a tangible evidence to support a claim that a rapper is top-notch.

If that's true, then that is an "accomplishment", and a "contribution".

Now that's ONE. So, if he's compared to another rapper or group who has TWO "accomplishments" or "contributions",
can't you argue that the rapper group with TWO such accomplishments is more "accomplished" than Big L is?

That's my whole point here.

I don't know what else an "accomplishment" can be in Hip-Hop. Beats and rhymes are supposed to be all that matters.

...But you KNOW it's not. You KNOW that.

But if you're one of these people like yourself that thinks that Grammys and platinum plaques are "accomplishments" then I guess Hammer and Vanilla Ice are 2 of the most accomplished rappers of all-time. Iggy Azalea and Macklemore are super accomplished too. Way more accomplished than Rakim.

You mean "one of these people", like rappers? LOL

The reason we know that Grammys and Plaques (and clout, and money, and who has the biggest chain) are important in the game is because the rappers tell us their damn selves.

- EPMD boasted about going gold in 30 days 20 years ago because they thought it was an accomplishment.
- Will Smith was mad about not getting to be on TV getting his Grammy. You tellin' me that wasn't important to him?
- I was bumpin' the first LOX album yesterday, and as you know the title is Money, Power, & Respect.
On the interview on that album, they said they had respect, and a little bit of power, but they were broke and now they
wanted the money. That should tell you that the beats and rhymes aren't all that matters.

 

[The Amerikkkan Idol]

I wouldn't say that about Insane Clown Posse, either...

...but that's not the point.

My point is, there are dozens of ill MCs that are lyrically top notch...but what have they done with those
"top notch skills"? What do they have to show for them? That's the crux of this argument.

You shoot yourself in the foot by comparing MCs with nothing to show for their skills to MCs who do have
something to show for their efforts. You can't take those things away from them...



I'm not trying to "reach" for accomplishment - that's the gottdamn topic. LOL



Finally.

Okay - Big L made a record that is considered by many to be a classic.
That takes work, and it is a tangible evidence to support a claim that a rapper is top-notch.

If that's true, then that is an "accomplishment", and a "contribution".

Now that's ONE. So, if he's compared to another rapper or group who has TWO "accomplishments" or "contributions",
can't you argue that the rapper group with TWO such accomplishments is more "accomplished" than Big L is?

That's my whole point here.



...But you KNOW it's not. You KNOW that.



You mean "one of these people", like rappers? LOL

The reason we know that Grammys and Plaques (and clout, and money, and who has the biggest chain) are important in the game is because the rappers tell us their damn selves.

- EPMD boasted about going gold in 30 days 20 years ago because they thought it was an accomplishment.
- Will Smith was mad about not getting to be on TV getting his Grammy. You tellin' me that wasn't important to him?
- I was bumpin' the first LOX album yesterday, and as you know the title is Money, Power, & Respect.
On the interview on that album, they said they had respect, and a little bit of power, but they were broke and now they
wanted the money. That should tell you that the beats and rhymes aren't all that matters.

Ugh,

1. Going gold USED to be an accomplishment back then because most of the people buying rap records were nikkaz from the hood. Hip-Hop was still hood music with some White people thrown in. NOW, it's basically pop music bought by 90% suburban White people, which is why Iggy Azalea and Macklemore have no.1 records.

2. Will Smith is one of the most clowned rappers of all-time. You act like he's actually a respectable MC.

3. Bad Boy as a clique is probably the reason that Hip-Hop is in the fukked up predicament that it's in now. The "bling bling" era was poisonous to Hip-Hop and we've never recovered from it.


But to just reiterate ONE more time. Being considered one of the best rappers of all-time by many people including The Source, XXL, countless MCs in Hip-Hop and making a record that many people within Hip-Hop consider a classic is more of an accomplishment than being fukking juggalos that most people laugh at because they're so mediocre.

No amount of records ICP sells is more of an "accomplishment" than the amount of respect that Big L. has within Hip-Hop.

 

[Taadow]

Ugh,

1. Going gold USED to be an accomplishment back then because most of the people buying rap records were nikkaz from the hood. Hip-Hop was still hood music with some White people thrown in. NOW, it's basically pop music bought by 90% suburban White people, which is why Iggy Azalea and Macklemore have no.1 records.

Back then, there were still a bunch of suburban (and non-suburban) white people buying those rap records,
so I don't even know why you brought that up. Anyway, going Gold is STILL an accomplishment -
because a lot of rappers don't go gold like they used to.
So if a rapper goes gold today (even if you don't like his music), he did that - and you can't take that accomplishment
away from him.

2. Will Smith is one of the most clowned rappers of all-time. You act like he's actually a respectable MC.

Irrelevant.
He's a rapper. He cares about the chit rappers care about. He was the first rapper to win a Grammy. That's an accomplishment,
you can't take that away from him.

On the other hand, Nas never won a Grammy. According to you, that shouldn't matter. I agree.
...but it matters to him. I remember an interview where he said he's been nominated a grip of times,
and he feels like he was slighted.

3. Bad Boy as a clique is probably the reason that Hip-Hop is in the fukked up predicament that it's in now. The "bling bling" era was poisonous to Hip-Hop and we've never recovered from it.

I don't even know where this came from in this discussion...

But to just reiterate ONE more time. Being considered one of the best rappers of all-time by many people including The Source, XXL, countless MCs in Hip-Hop and making a record that many people within Hip-Hop consider a classic is more of an accomplishment than being fukking juggalos that most people laugh at because they're so mediocre.

No amount of records ICP sells is more of an "accomplishment" than the amount of respect that Big L. has within Hip-Hop.

Here's where you're getting me fucced up - i'm not talking about what's "more of an accomplishment", or what "accomplishments"
are more important - i'm talking about the number of different "accomplishments".

So you don't have to tell me that Big L is more respected than ICP...I know that.
Where you lose me is that Big L has done more in his career than ICP has.

 

[Heafcliffe]

After reading this, all I gathered was nikkas out here dying and killing over stupid, senseless, dumb, asinine, trivial shyt.

C'mon SON!

 

[The Amerikkkan Idol]

Back then, there were still a bunch of suburban (and non-suburban) white people buying those rap records,
so I don't even know why you brought that up. Anyway, going Gold is STILL an accomplishment -
because a lot of rappers don't go gold like they used to.
So if a rapper goes gold today (even if you don't like his music), he did that - and you can't take that accomplishment
away from him.



Irrelevant.
He's a rapper. He cares about the chit rappers care about. He was the first rapper to win a Grammy. That's an accomplishment,
you can't take that away from him.

On the other hand, Nas never won a Grammy. According to you, that shouldn't matter. I agree.
...but it matters to him. I remember an interview where he said he's been nominated a grip of times,
and he feels like he was slighted.



I don't even know where this came from in this discussion...



Here's where you're getting me fucced up - i'm not talking about what's "more of an accomplishment", or what "accomplishments"
are more important - i'm talking about the number of different "accomplishments".

So you don't have to tell me that Big L is more respected than ICP...I know that.
Where you lose me is that Big L has done more in his career than ICP has.

Being better than ICP IS DOING MORE IN HIS CAREER THAN ICP.

This is Hip-Hop. Being the better artist means more than all of that other shyt put together.

That's why Rakim has done more in is career than 50 Cent.