Religion/Spirituality Vegetarianism, Veganism, and just reducing your meat intake.

[tmonster]

Blue Zones project is available only a torrent away

Like I said, I agree with massively vegetable centric diets and eating lower on the food chain, meaning i would only consume animal products a couple times a month. But the simple fact is that no native population in the world survived or thrived off a 100% vegetable driven diet. There is a place for animal product in the human diet and culture. Traditional cultures all over the world found great nutrition in animal sources. Fat soluble vitamins in organ meats, amino acids in marrow and collagen, omega-3 and DHA in grass fed fat. What i have distaste for is the wasteful, cruel,flavorless and excessive way we consume and create animals.

you've moved the goal post

the longest lived populations in the world do indeed consume animal products, but in much much smaller proportions.

you implication was that to live a long life you had to have animal products
and what I presented in rebuttal is that even an expert on your proffered long living pop. has come away with the advice that if you want a long life stay away from meat as much as possible. for me that's 100%.

I am not part of a native population
and I am not discussing what their diet should be
my interest is in what Americans can do to improve their health, level of morbidity and mortality
by far all the unbiased peer reviewed data says GO VEGAN
keep it simple if the data supports simplicity

 

[Julius Skrrvin]

you've moved the goal post

you implication was that to live a long life you had to have animal products
and what I presented in rebuttal is that even an expert on your proffered long living pop. has come away with the advice that if you want a long life stay away from meat as much as possible. for me that's 100%.

I am not part of a native population
and I am not discussing what their diet should be
my interest is in what Americans can do to improve their health, level of morbidity and mortality
by far all the unbiased peer reviewed data says GO VEGAN
keep it simple if the data supports simplicity

It's not my business to address what you think my implication was. I in fact did note that Seventh Day Adventists are vegetarians and are among the longest lived populations in the world. Please read properly.

You are confusing correlation with causation with regards to the bolded.

Americans have to do more than reduce consumption of animal products to become healthier. That's a conjugated version of the big picture. It's in fact not simple in the slightest, so why misrepresent it as such?

 

[tmonster]

It's not my business to address what you think my implication was

I have no idea what your business is or is supposed to be

in fact did note that Seventh Day Adventists are vegetarians and are among the longest lived populations in the world

which only goes against your main point and when you add that to the expert who studied the Okinawan, you argument is further invalidated

Please read properly.

I beg to differ, I read everything just fine. You're probably better off just not responding to people who can't read.

You are confusing correlation with causation with regards to the bolded.

I beg to differ. This claim is gibberish nonsense couched in statistical lexicon to sound authoritative, unfortunately it fails at that. And I would challenge you to prove it, but I have no idea what business you are in, so I won't.

Americans have to do more than reduce consumption of animal products to become healthier.

Well I will ignore the patronizing tone of this statement, and refrain from saying "duh!", and point you to my responses throughout this thread which propose
-stopping dairy
-stopping eggs
-adding ground flaxseed to diet
-adding vitamin D, zinc and iodine
-eating whole vegetables, fruits, nuts and seeds
-avoiding processed foods
-avoiding cholesterol
-avoiding saturated fats

the list goes on
but you can pretend that anyone of us here thinks that Americans need only reduce meat consumption to become healthier, as a matter of recorded fact, I think it needs to be removed completely from our diet, not just reduced; unfortunately pretending does not make it true.

 

[KingOFKings]

People stay needing excuses to keep eating meat. All unbiased studies say no meat is the healthiest. Meat and dairy industry is one of the largest on the planet, and the roots are entrenched deeply in what is pushed on us, in countless forms of media.

We're not made to consume meat, bottom line.

Go vegan.

 

[tmonster]

People stay needing excuses to keep meat. All unbiased studies say no meat is the healthiest.
Go vegan.

basically

 

[tmonster]

What Do the Healthiest, Longest-Living People in the World Eat?
By Janice Stanger, PhD
A long life, enjoyed in good health, is a dream that many seek to realize. Yet while life span has been slowly increasing in developed countries, freedom from illness and disability, unfortunately, is not following the same trend. Research has shown that baby boomers (born between 1946 and 1964) have higher rates of many chronic diseases at various ages than their parents did. Compared to the prior generation, baby boomer risks are at increased risk for:

• Diabetes (by 46%)
• Hypertension (by 38%)
• High cholesterol (by almost 500%)

An international survey of adults 65 or older in eleven industrialized countries found U.S. respondents the sickest, with 87% reporting a chronic medical condition and 53% taking four or more medications. The statistics are discouraging, but this does not have to happen to you.

The secret to a longer life does not lie in prescription medications or expensive, sometimes dangerous, anti-aging pills and injections. Instead, you can find out how to stay vital by studying groups of people who have consistently maintained outstanding health into their old age.

WHAT DO CENTENARIANS EAT?

Scientists who study longevity often focus on centenarians, those aged 100 or older. You may be familiar with this idea through the popular concept of Blue Zones, where populations have unusually high concentrations of healthy centenarians.

Studying Blue Zones is rewarding but also challenging. Researchers must validate that people are actually as old as they say they are, and reliable records are not always available. Also, although it’s possible to measure what centenarians are eating now, what did they eat over the preceding decades?

A look at the Okinawan islands of Japan, one of the Blue Zones, offers some important insight. Careful research has validated the birthdates on record for Okinawan centenarians. In addition, detailed information on diet going back to 1949 is available from population surveys periodically conducted by the local government.

The older group of Okinawans, generally those born before 1942, possess the highest functional capacity and longest survival in Japan, a country traditionally known for its longevity. Rates of heart disease and many forms of cancer are significantly lower among Okinawan seniors than in Americans and other Japanese people of the same ages. Almost two-thirds of Okinawans still function independently at age 97.

So what is the traditional diet of this group, remarkable for both longevity and healthy aging? Here were the major sources of their calories in 1949:

FOOD PERCENT OF TOTAL CALORIES

Sweet potatoes 69%

Other vegetables 3%

Rice 12%

Other grains 7%

Legumes 6%

Oils 2%

Fish 1%




The following foods each contributed less than 1% of total calories: nuts and seeds, sugar, meat, eggs, dairy, fruit, seaweed, flavorings, and alcohol.

Overall, the diet of these centenarians derives 85% of calories from carbohydrate, 9% from protein, and 6% from fat.

Unfortunately, the mortality advantage that prior generations of Okinawans enjoyed has faded with the dietary changes that have occurred over the last several decades. Younger island residents have largely abandoned the sweet potato in favor of more “modern” choices: animal foods, white rice and other processed foods, and added oils. As a result they are sicker and increasingly overweight, and they are not attaining the advanced ages of earlier island generations.

Chart from “Caloric Restriction, the Traditional Okinawan Diet, and Healthy Aging: The Diet of the World’s Longest-Lived People and Its Potential Impact on Morbidity and Life Span.” Source here.

CAN DIET SLOW THE AGING PROCESS?

Why would a whole-food, plant-based diet, such as the one traditionally enjoyed in Okinawa and other Blue Zones around the world, have such a huge effect on aging? Is it just that this way of eating helps prevent killer events like heart disease, cancer, and diabetes? Or is nutrition impacting the aging process itself—putting the brakes on the complex interplay of processes that makes us age biologically? A recent study found that the latter outcome would result in a substantially longer period of healthy life than simply treating specific diseases as these pop up.

Scientific understanding of aging is in its infancy. Many interrelated factors contribute to the aging process. One of these determinants is the length of telomeres, protective structures found at both ends of our chromosomes. Shorter telomeres are linked to reduced life span and a substantially higher risk of chronic disease. Recent studies indicate that people with longer telomeres age more slowly.

Growing evidence confirms that lifestyle choices exert a powerful influence on telomere length. Dietary factors, as well as lean weight, are associated with longer telomeres. Researchers believe that a diet high in antioxidants (which is to say, a diet based on whole plant foods) protect telomeres from destructive oxidative stress. In a study of men with low-risk prostate cancer, findings indicated that a comprehensive lifestyle program that included a whole-food, plant-based diet was significantly linked to longer relative telomere length. The more closely the men followed the prescribed program, the more their telomeres lengthened during the five-year follow up period.

The bottom line: if you want to follow the example of centenarians around the world, a whole-food, plant-based diet should be the foundation of your lifestyle choices. It’s never too late to start.

Sources:

Goldman, D., Cutler, D., Rowe, J., Michaud, P., Sullivan, J., Peneva, D., & Olshansky, S. (2013). Substantial Health And Economic Returns From Delayed Aging May Warrant A New Focus For Medical Research. Health Affairs, 32, 1698-1705.
King, D., Matheson, E., Chirina, S., Shankar, A., & Broman-Fulks, J. (2013). The Status of Baby Boomers’ Health in the United States. JAMA Intern Med, 385-385.
Ornish, D., Lin, J., Chan, J., Epel, E., Kemp, C., Weidner, G., marlin, R., Frenda, S., Magbanua, M., Daubenmier, J., Estay, I., Hills, N., Chainani-Wu, N, Carroll, P., Blackburn, E. (2013). Effect of comprehensive lifestyle changes on telomerase activity and telomere length in men with biopsy-proven low-risk prostate cancer: 5-year follow-up of a descriptive pilot study. The Lancet Oncology, 14, 1112-1120.
Osborn, R., Moulds, D., Squires, D., Doty, M., & Anderson, C. (2014). International Survey Of Older Adults Finds Shortcomings In Access, Coordination, And Patient-Centered Care. Health Affairs, 33, 2247-2255.
Shammas, M. (2011). Telomeres, lifestyle, cancer, and aging. Current Opinion in Clinical Nutrition and Metabolic Care, 14, 28-34.
Willcox, B., Willcox, D., Todoriki, H., Fujiyoshi, A., Yano, K., He, Q., Curb, D., Suzuki, M. (2007). Caloric Restriction, the Traditional Okinawan Diet, and Healthy Aging: The Diet of the World’s Longest-Lived People and Its Potential Impact on Morbidity and Life Span. Annals of the New York Academy of Sciences, 1114, 434-455.
Willcox, D., Willcox, B., Shimajiri, S., Kurechi, S., & Suzuki, M. (2007). Aging Gracefully: A Retrospective Analysis of Functional Status in Okinawan Centenarians. The American Journal of Geriatric Psychiatry, 15, 252-256.
Willcox, D., Willcox, B., He, Q., Wang, N., & Suzuki, M. (2008). They Really Are That Old: A Validation Study of Centenarian Prevalence in Okinawa. The Journals of Gerontology Series A: Biological Sciences and Medical Sciences, 63A, 338-349.
Willcox, D., Willcox, B., Todoriki, H., & Suzuki, M. (2009). The Okinawan Diet: Health Implications of a Low-Calorie, Nutrient-Dense, Antioxidant-Rich Dietary Pattern Low in Glycemic Load. Journal of the American College of Nutrition, 28, 500S-516S.

 

[Julius Skrrvin]

which only goes against your main point and when you add that to the expert who studied the Okinawan, you argument is further invalidated

I beg to differ. This claim is gibberish nonsense couched in statistical lexicon to sound authoritative, unfortunately it fails at that. And I would challenge you to prove it, but I have no idea what business you are in, so I won't.

My point, was that there are healthy populations in the world that consume animal products. That was it. Nothing controversial. Maybe you chose to interpret it as an attack on veganism. It wasn't one, especially since I went out of my way to endorse the health benefits of a straight up vegetarian population

 

[tmonster]

My point, was that there are healthy populations in the world that consume animal products

if that's your points then I am wasting my time
and you say I need to reread?
are you even looking at the data you are proffering?
These populations eat less than 1% of their calories from meat, the instant they increase that percentage their previously garnered health benefits start to vanish. isn't that enough to disavow this statement completely?

My point, was that there are healthy populations in the world that consume animal products

and when analyzed, the experts find even within those populations, that the closer you get to zero meat the healthier you get

why are you selectively generalizing the high definition data we have with regards to meat consumption? Why are you ignoring the inverse relation trend of less meat, more health?

 

[Julius Skrrvin]

if that's your points then I am wasting my time
and you say I need to reread?
are you even looking at the data you are proffering?
These populations eat less than 1% of their calories from meat, the instant they increase that percentage their previously garnered health benefits start to vanish. isn't that enough to disavow this statement completely?

and when analyzed, the experts find even within those populations, that the closer you get to zero meat the healthier you get

why are you selectively generalizing the high definition data we have with regards to meat consumption? Why are you ignoring the inverse relation trend of less meat, more health?

I didn't offer any data, not a single percentage point or graph I offered you populations. And i didn't say "meat" i said animal products.

Let's take a look at the longest lived male population in the world, the Sardinians. In their pre-industrialization diet, the lion's share of their daily calories come from carbohydrates (bread, pasta, potatoes etc).However, when you look at what else takes up a portion of their diet, you find consumption of lard, sheep's and goats milk and cheeses made from them as well. In a not insignificant proportion either.

I mentioned the Seventh-day adventists as well in praise of their extremely vegetable centric diet. But even they have conflicting information:

Vegetarian dietary patterns and mortality in Adventist Health Study 2. - PubMed - NCBI

The pesco-vegetarians (one serving of fish/week) in their population studies live the longest. They also perform better wrt things like colorectal cancers:

Vegetarian Diet and Risk of Colorectal Cancers


It's confounding examples like this that make me not completely disregard the consumption of animal products

Instead of tilting at windmills for people who are actually on your side like me who believe in vegetable and grain centric diets, you could be going after the people in HL general who want to eat beef three times a day

 

[tmonster]

didn't offer any data, not a single percentage point or graph

why because you narrated it?

-0% native population in the world survived or thrived off a 100% vegetable driven diet.
-100% sure that there is a place for animal product in the human diet and culture.
-100% of the parts of the world found great nutrition in animal sources.

But the simple fact is that no native population in the world survived or thrived off a 100% vegetable driven diet. There is a place for animal product in the human diet and culture. Traditional cultures all over the world found great nutrition in animal sources.

I offered you populations. And i didn't say "meat" i said animal products.

Same deal applies
while you have one article on the Sardinians-and we don't know who paid for it-, there are thousands that show how meat, dairy, eggs lead to increase morbidity and mortality, be it through cancer, cardiovascular disease or chronic inflammatory and immune conditions.
it's you who needs to find the confounding factor in the Sardinian diet that may be increasing their lifespan, not the other way around. the data on meat, dairy and eggs is pretty concrete

Instead of tilting at windmills for people who are actually on your side like me who believe in vegetable and grain centric diets

not looking for allies, just good sense
Here is the research data on Okinawans, in proper examination and I'm willing bet your Sardinian data is just as flawed as the "before " graph on animal "products" consumption, in the video.

 

[tmonster]

I didn't offer any data

Can you agree or disagree with the following
1. long living populations eat very little meat or animal products?
2. long living populations start to live shorter and more morbid lives when they increase their animal product intake?
3. You have subsequently proffered that animal products need to be part of your diet to live long?

any of those incorrect?

 

[Julius Skrrvin]

why because you narrated it?

-0% native population in the world survived or thrived off a 100% vegetable driven diet.
-100% sure that there is a place for animal product in the human diet and culture.
-100% of the parts of the world found great nutrition in animal sources.





Same deal applies
while you have one article on the Sardinians-and we don't know who paid for it-, there are thousands that show how meat, dairy, eggs lead to increase morbidity and mortality, be it through cancer, cardiovascular disease or chronic inflammatory and immune conditions.
it's you who needs to find the confounding factor in the Sardinian diet that may be increasing their lifespan, not the other way around. the data on meat, dairy and eggs is pretty concrete

not looking for allies, just good sense
Here is the research data on Okinawans, in proper examination and I'm willing bet your Sardinian data is just as flawed as the "before " graph on animal "products" consumption, in the video.

Accusing people of posting industry FUD now? you can check research on the ikarians too on your own, who consume a similar diet, albeit with more fish instead of dairy.

Think we're done here. I'm no Weston price plant.

Can you agree or disagree with the following
1. long living populations eat very little meat or animal products?
2. long living populations start to live shorter and more morbid lives when they increase their animal product intake?
3. You have subsequently proffered that animal products need to be part of your diet to live long?

any of those incorrect?

I agree wholly with 1.

I agree mostly with 2 within reason. I think what you eat matters. Not all animal products are created equal.

I did not say the last one. You can live a healthy long life as a vegan.

 

[tmonster]

Accusing people of posting industry FUD now?

it's obvious I haven't done that, it's obvious that's the only thing you are focusing on because you would rather not answer to anything else.

I did not say the last one.

when you say this

My point, was that there are healthy populations in the world that consume animal products. That was it.

then add this

Nothing controversial.

and then suggest that I might be misinterpreting your point

Maybe you chose to interpret it as an attack on veganism.

while stating stuff like this

But the simple fact is that no native population in the world survived or thrived off a 100% vegetable driven diet.

and this

There is a place for animal product in the human diet and culture. Traditional cultures all over the world found great nutrition in animal sources. Fat soluble vitamins in organ meats, amino acids in marrow and collagen, omega-3 and DHA in grass fed fat.

in the same thread
that is wholly disingenuous

you might as well have said that there are long living populations that wear hats...nothing controversial there either

you have moved between making points about how indigenous peoples could not have lived without animal products (not the topic or argument at hand)

to

to long living peoples ate animal products (spuriously ignoring that no one is arguing that animal products are cyanide and that the trend shows that these populations eat very small amounts of said products and lose their health advantages as they eat increase animal product consumption and that plants are far and above more nutritious than animal products, save for a few nutrients)


How is it a relevant thing to say that "traditional cultures found great nutrition in animal sources", while acknowledging that when traditional and modern cultures increase the consumption of animal products their health worsen?

 

[tmonster]

Not all animal products are created equal.

Oh yeah?
do tell

 

[Julius Skrrvin]

Oh yeah?
do tell

save for a few nutrients)


How is it a relevant thing to say that "traditional cultures found great nutrition in animal sources", while acknowledging that when traditional and modern cultures increase the consumption of animal products their health worsen?

I think you just misunderstood me.

There is a "right way" to consume and create animal products in my opinion. As you acknowledged with the bolded, animal products can be great sources of nutrition. Mostly in the realm of fat soluble vitamins, DHA, omega-3, amino acid sources. Especially if they have been raised on a proper diet and treated well. And with respect to health and ecological concerns, humans should be okay with partaking of that sparingly.

My remarks on traditional cultures is just a way of acknowledging that animal consumption and agriculture is a part of the human experience and helping create civilization. In natural 'organic' farming pre industrialization and NPK fertilizer, we have always used animals to participate in the system. Cows create excellent fertilizer, avian species like chickens spread that fertilizer, goats consume weeds and halt encroaching forest, etc. That is a similar ideal that systems like the Spanish dehesa I posted in here on the last page espouse. Using animals properly can enrich the health of an ecological system, much like what has been accomplished at Veta La Palma. This all stemmed from the conversation BarNone and I were having.

Anyway, I don't think we're going to see eye to eye on this.