what would a top 5 list in 1994 look like?

[Art Barr]

so u saying there was a separation between "culture" and "the streets" in 94? I guess I didnt get that memo and thats why Puba was still in my top 5 by 94.




My dude....U been going on and on about why Puba shouldnt be listed by 94 and IU've explained to why I still had him on my list. Everything U have said about Puba could also be said about Kane who I had in my top 10 by 94. Did it ever occur to you that maybe I just really like Puba by 94?




Also......360 came out before Who Got The Props the song and video.

Note, you said you personally liked puba.
Like aside, I could post about my like for Kane right before 94. This is not about our personal like.
Also, I posted about blackmoon's buck shot to add clarity. I never said props and 360's release dates in my post. I talked about where both were at in that time frame. Buck shot was culturally way more respected in 94 than puba.
who was in the using rnb taboo bin at the time. Plus again, I notice you skipped over my mjb and miss Jones content to draw relevence to puba in this era as well.
If puba was still popular in 94, like you say. He would have had a solo resurgence to a much larger draw instead of a culturally damning draw on 2000, which would be viewed as the actual precursor to what jiggy was or would become. Plus, if puba was culturally still that guy in 94. He would have had legs on mjb's first and second release and was not included at all in the beginning of what would become the saturation method in how mj 's second album was marketed to radio as all singles at the same time. Plus he would have reamplified his draw to groove theory level.
to even latching onto the subsequent windfall of diamond being called out for going jiggy on his second album.
after the production credit impact and windfall on the fugees. Yet none of this happened and even diamond was given the gtfoh for selling out on his second album. So how was puba going to be a draw and everyone else who drew after him had impact.
when the scope and direction of the industry finally followed his direction in rnb fusion. Plus culturally artist like ms Jones and az were given passes.
for the same thing puba did predating sugar hill

I am only keeping it real.

In 94, you was getting approached by real bboy based crews in the culture for two straps.[the incoming influx of.toys from souls of mischeifs draw and look. As this was the first of t second time people tried to misappropriate dreads and the look of bboys too] It strictly became the one strap era in the summer of 93. I remember it like yesterday because I had the Eddie Bauer tote portfolio moving away from the backpack my sophomore to junior year previously in 91.
Then in the summer of 93 I got the new Eddie Bauer Alice pack.
which I only rocked with one strap then.
Rocking that two strap shyt was just that window of time for puba's draw and look. backpacker was and always derogatory after it was coined.

Back then gangstas listened to house music and rocked chiffon shirts and dress shoes. Later they adopted towel coats, girbauds etc. This is after the death of used, damage, and starter coats apparel etc. This is well after late eighties the Italian obscure workout suit and shoe era. That everything from troop to task force to le coq aportif, white c00n hats , and ballys rocked.
Gangstas after this era Did house dances and listened to house music. Gangsta rap was as far as it went for this group and before the change in radio in April of 93. You would not even know gangstas listened to rap at all. As there was a huge lull from the original impact of NWA and the later cube leaves era. Before that and 1996 they never rocked no polo or no bboy Influential styles of clothing. That whole try to adopt bboy shyt came later in 96, in the Leo Burnett urban marketing boom era.
after puba already ushered in girbauds. Of which the original Girbauds from cowboy brand x and the other styles of girbaud they never rocked. All they had was brand x and skinny cowboy
I ain't from ny, so being a bboy in hiphop was completely juxtaposed from chicago's general landscape socially. Being a bboy was a social outcast to what was deemed ghetto back then.

They were completely juxtaposed.
Backpacker and ghetto were both derogatory terms for both groups back then and they were both juxtaposed.
We talking about hip hop culture. Which at this time was not this Hodge podge of post great recession, meets MTV prison industrial economy apologist base that people point to now. If you think they were not juxtaposed. Then why did the real azie not catch on till the jayz/dame/paid in full era. Originally it was completely taboo for the real azie to be a rapper in the Mecca. Plus NWA got a pass and it was stripped.and in mad contention from cube exposing their creative process.






Art Barr

 

[Art Barr]

You have no idea what you're talking about. I DISCOVERED Snoop's debut via my brothwr leaving the tape in the deck. Nowherw in that post does it ever imply that I didn't buy the album.

so what came out on the same day as doggy style then since you know so fukk'n much.
the internet can't help you because the release dates don't match the real instore buys either.
so you will fail google'n.

so what albums came out the same day as doggystyle in rap.
what albums came out the same day as the chronic.
since you culturally know this era so fukk'n well and were this bboy.
yet you can't even recount any actual culturally relevent timeline or occurrences.
plus offkey to what happened culturally all through this thread.

art barr

 

[JustCKing]

so what came out on the same day as doggy style then since you know so fukk'n much.
the internet can't help you because the release dates don't match the real instore buys either.
so you will fail google'n.

so what albums came out the same day as doggystyle in rap.
what albums came out the same day as the chronic.
since you culturally know this era so fukk'n well and were this bboy.
yet you can't even recount any actual culturally relevent timeline or occurrences.
plus offkey to what happened culturally all through this thread.

art barr

This is nonsensical. Me telling you a release date would prove nothing. I don't remember what else came out on the same date as a lot of my favorite albums. If you really wanted to test to me on that, you could do much better than that especially since a lot of Hip Hop music of that era was borrowed/dubbed/traded with friends and relatives especially if it was a big deal. Never said that I bought it on the release date or that bought Chronic the day it came out either. Also, I never stated or implied that I was a "b boy". All I did was call two things into questions:

1) How was being 25 old in 1994

2) How did Illmatic move the culture in 1994 (never said that it didn't move the culture period)

^^^ Both points were tap danced around and never addressed.

 

[smokeurobinson]

Note, you said you personally liked puba.
Like aside, I could post about my like for Kane right before 94. This is not about our personal like.
Also, I posted about blackmoon's buck shot to add clarity. I never said props and 360's release dates in my post. I talked about where both were at in that time frame. Buck shot was culturally way more respected in 94 than puba.
who was in the using rnb taboo bin at the time. Plus again, I notice you skipped over my mjb and miss Jones content to draw relevence to puba in this era as well.
If puba was still popular in 94, like you say. He would have had a solo resurgence to a much larger draw instead of a culturally damning draw on 2000, which would be viewed as the actual precursor to what jiggy was or would become. Plus, if puba was culturally still that guy in 94. He would have had legs on mjb's first and second release and was not included at all in the beginning of what would become the saturation method in how mj 's second album was marketed to radio as all singles at the same time. Plus he would have reamplified his draw to groove theory level.
to even latching onto the subsequent windfall of diamond being called out for going jiggy on his second album.
after the production credit impact and windfall on the fugees. Yet none of this happened and even diamond was given the gtfoh for selling out on his second album. So how was puba going to be a draw and everyone else who drew after him had impact.
when the scope and direction of the industry finally followed his direction in rnb fusion. Plus culturally artist like ms Jones and az were given passes.
for the same thing puba did predating sugar hill

I am only keeping it real.

In 94, you was getting approached by real bboy based crews in the culture for two straps.[the incoming influx of.toys from souls of mischeifs draw and look. As this was the first of t second time people tried to misappropriate dreads and the look of bboys too] It strictly became the one strap era in the summer of 93. I remember it like yesterday because I had the Eddie Bauer tote portfolio moving away from the backpack my sophomore to junior year previously in 91.
Then in the summer of 93 I got the new Eddie Bauer Alice pack.
which I only rocked with one strap then.
Rocking that two strap shyt was just that window of time for puba's draw and look. backpacker was and always derogatory after it was coined.

Back then gangstas listened to house music and rocked chiffon shirts and dress shoes. Later they adopted towel coats, girbauds etc. This is after the death of used, damage, and starter coats apparel etc. This is well after late eighties the Italian obscure workout suit and shoe era. That everything from troop to task force to le coq aportif, white c00n hats , and ballys rocked.
Gangstas after this era Did house dances and listened to house music. Gangsta rap was as far as it went for this group and before the change in radio in April of 93. You would not even know gangstas listened to rap at all. As there was a huge lull from the original impact of NWA and the later cube leaves era. Before that and 1996 they never rocked no polo or no bboy Influential styles of clothing. That whole try to adopt bboy shyt came later in 96, in the Leo Burnett urban marketing boom era.
after puba already ushered in girbauds. Of which the original Girbauds from cowboy brand x and the other styles of girbaud they never rocked. All they had was brand x and skinny cowboy
I ain't from ny, so being a bboy in hiphop was completely juxtaposed from chicago's general landscape socially. Being a bboy was a social outcast to what was deemed ghetto back then.

They were completely juxtaposed.
Backpacker and ghetto were both derogatory terms for both groups back then and they were both juxtaposed.
We talking about hip hop culture. Which at this time was not this Hodge podge of post great recession, meets MTV prison industrial economy apologist base that people point to now. If you think they were not juxtaposed. Then why did the real azie not catch on till the jayz/dame/paid in full era. Originally it was completely taboo for the real azie to be a rapper in the Mecca. Plus NWA got a pass and it was stripped.and in mad contention from cube exposing their creative process.






Art Barr

The problem with what u are saying is that this R&B taboo didnt start with Puba. I have Rakim as #1 in 94 and he did the R&B thing years prior with jody watley





This was 89...I was in the 5th grade when this dropped. Hot 97,
kiss FM and WBLS played it heavy. Yet you aren't going after Rakim like u are Puba. You arent even stressing me having Rakim at #1 at all. Yet the main thing u stress why i shouldnt have Puba at #5 in 94 is something Rakim did first and u never mention that.







And then there was Kane. Kane whos Taste Of Chocolate record had 2 weak songs. 1 of them being that Berry White song because it was so out of place and the song right after it on side 2. Guess what Kane goes and does? Kane goes and makes a video to one of the weakest songs on the album which just so happens to be that same taboo u stressing Puba will do 2 years later.






Yet here u and I are saying we'd both argue in Kanes favor.


So u add that with the fact that u never once mentioned Rakim doing in 89 what u are stressing Puba did in 92 and it looks off on your end.




And again....My hood (Harlem) and pretty much all of nyc was fukking with Tommy Hill in 94. U might have been somewhere else with it in 94 but nyc was Tommy Hill. So my view of Pubas impact in 94 was different from yours.

 

[Art Barr]

00000000000000000000000000000022

This is nonsensical. Me telling you a release date would prove nothing. I don't remember what else came out on the same date as a lot of my favorite albums. If you really wanted to test to me on that, you could do much better than that especially since a lot of Hip Hop music of that era was borrowed/dubbed/traded with friends and relatives especially if it was a big deal. Never said that I bought it on the release date or that bought Chronic the day it came out either. Also, I never stated or implied that I was a "b boy". All I did was call two things into questions:

1) How was being 25 old in 1994

2) How did Illmatic move the culture in 1994 (never said that it didn't move the culture period)

^^^ Both points were tap danced around and never addressed.

i answered both these things.

i answered the second question in my first fukk'n post.

you skimmed this thread like you skimmed knowing culturally anything in this era about hiphop.

art barr

 

[Art Barr]

The problem with what u are saying is that this R&B taboo didnt start with Puba. I have Rakim as #1 in 94 and he did the R&B thing years prior with jody watley





This was 89...I was in the 5th grade when this dropped. Hot 97,
kiss FM and WBLS played it heavy. Yet you aren't going after Rakim like u are Puba. You arent even stressing me having Rakim at #1 at all. Yet the main thing u stress why i shouldnt have Puba at #5 in 94 is something Rakim did first and u never mention that.







And then there was Kane. Kane whos Taste Of Chocolate record had 2 weak songs. 1 of them being that Berry White song because it was so out of place and the song right after it on side 2. Guess what Kane goes and does? Kane goes and makes a video to one of the weakest songs on the album which just so happens to be that same taboo u stressing Puba will do 2 years later.






Yet here u and I are saying we'd both argue in Kanes favor.


So u add that with the fact that u never once mentioned Rakim doing in 89 what u are stressing Puba did in 92 and it looks off on your end.




And again....My hood (Harlem) and pretty much all of nyc was fukking with Tommy Hill in 94. U might have been somewhere else with it in 94 but nyc was Tommy Hill. So my view of Pubas impact in 94 was different from yours.

Rakim and Jody Whatley had a whole story behind why rakim was never held accountable culturally for the Whatley cut. Do you know the story cause I do and it was because Whatley publically challenged rakim on the radio.
that he could not rhyme like that on an rnb landscape and be as convincing or skilled. So Ra took her publically up on the challenge and killed it. Totally different than Kane who made it known he wanted to be surrounded by Barry, bobby, teddy to Quincy and then failed skillwise.
where rakim shined reluctantly to whatley's challenge. Plus Kane never proved Quincy Jones wrong about rap and also publically made it known his affinity for that era of rnb and the artist.
Plus asked to be in that realm and failed to execute skillwise as an emcee.

You were in the Mecca but I have to ask.
Did people in the Mecca rock used and damaged and when?
Plus I think you are underestimating the fact ny is the Mecca and also urban intellectualism is there at a premium.
So a culture based brand would have more legs because I know the division between hiphop culture and other places is way way different.
In a place outside the Mecca a cultural brand may be looked at as falling off completely if picked up by people not of the culture. Like girbaud was done as a culture based brand in 95 for sure. It definitely was done by 94, culturally in hip hop.



Art Barr

 

[smokeurobinson]

Rakim and Jody Whatley had a whole story behind why rakim was never held accountable culturally for the Whatley cut. Do you know the story cause I do and it was because Whatley publically challenged rakim on the radio.
that he could not rhyme like that on an rnb landscape and be as convincing or skilled. So Ra took her publically up on the challenge and killed it. Totally different than Kane who made it known he wanted to be surrounded by Barry, bobby, teddy to Quincy and then failed skillwise.
where rakim shined reluctantly to whatley's challenge. Plus Kane never proved Quincy Jones wrong about rap and also publically made it known his affinity for that era of rnb and the artist.
Plus asked to be in that realm and failed to execute skillwise as an emcee.

You were in the Mecca but I have to ask.
Did people in the Mecca rock used and damaged and when?
Plus I think you are underestimating the fact ny is the Mecca and also urban intellectualism is there at a premium.
So a culture based brand would have more legs because I know the division between hiphop culture and other places is way way different.
In a place outside the Mecca a cultural brand may be looked at as falling off completely if picked up by people not of the culture. Like girbaud was done as a culture based brand in 95 for sure. It definitely was done by 94, culturally in hip hop.



Art Barr

So Rakim gets a pass cuz there was a "story"



Kane gets a pass cuz he said he wanted to be around Berry and 'em






U talking this talk about Puba being dismissed by hip hop as if Kane wasn't outed for Prince Of Darkness. Puba was never attached to a downfall album like Kane was to Prince Of Darkness. One of the main reasons Kane was outed was cuz he was too much on that r&b shyt...Like that was Kanes rep in 91...that wasnt Pubas rep in 94 like u stressing now.



U want a clothing timeline?

92 was the last year for Cross Colors

93 rocking Old Navy, Gap or Banana Republic was actually the in thing and Karl Kani is king


94 i started making my lil money and was really into Boss. Shirts, pants, shorts....I still have pictures from 94 with me and different Boss shirts.

summer 94 NBA jerseys are the in thing and anything that said Nike or had Jordon on it was a green light

by late 04 nyc was on some puffy coat shyt Bears and First Downs

Timbs and jordons were always in season.

 

[Art Barr]

So Rakim gets a pass cuz there was a "story"



Kane gets a pass cuz he said he wanted to be around Berry and 'em






U talking this talk about Puba being dismissed by hip hop as if Kane wasn't outed for Prince Of Darkness. Puba was never attached to a downfall album like Kane was to Prince Of Darkness. One of the main reasons Kane was outed was cuz he was too much on that r&b shyt...Like that was Kanes rep in 91...that wasnt Pubas rep in 94 like u stressing now.



U want a clothing timeline?

92 was the last year for Cross Colors

93 rocking Old Navy, Gap or Banana Republic was actually the in thing and Karl Kani is king


94 i started making my lil money and was really into Boss. Shirts, pants, shorts....I still have pictures from 94 with me and different Boss shirts.

summer 94 NBA jerseys are the in thing and anything that said Nike or had Jordon on it was a green light

by late 04 nyc was on some puffy coat shyt Bears and First Downs

Timbs and jordons were always in season.

Ra never asked to be there and basically Whatley was chiding him being the best rapper and praising him but still making it like rap was beneath other forms of music. Plus back then the sonic landscape was completely juxtaposed. I think maybe you thinking of this like in the hybrid phase but one Ra never asked to be put in the sights like Kane. Plus Kane sought out all this and was not skilled in his said submission. Plus you forgetting the numerous other taboo shyt Kane was doing. Rakim was challenged exactly for what he was referenced as the best for by a female rnb singer. Which is also tongue and cheek a blatant coded diss. With Kane he asked.
Also there were other artist back then who also nav'sd making rnb collab style music but their overall change in direction after.commercial.success as a producer was a death knell for diamond d. Yet.originally in so confused no one held him in violation on stunts.
Also I think you are forgetting things had to be that way to keep.rap.gping. Rap almost never lived past freaks come out at night. So in that time of 89, rakim would not have been damaged for protecting the skillset of emcee'n his he was challenged.

Now as far as clothes I asked you did ny have a used and damaged ripped denim suit era.
Not what your time line was.
Did you ever see the first detroits most wanted video they have used and damaged on in those vids.


Art Barr

 

[smokeurobinson]

Plus Kane sought out all this and was not skilled in his said submission. Plus you forgetting the numerous other taboo shyt Kane was doing.

OK.

Lets stay right there on Kane. You mean to tell me you're quik to say you'd argue in favor of Kane pre 93 yet only later do u bring up "other taboo" shyt he was doing being proof that Kane had way more strikes against him over Puba by 93?



Playgirl and Madonna aside. I'm finding your agument that i'm to dismiss Puba by 94 ( even tho Tommy Hill was popping in nyc) while being able to defend Kane up until 93 hypocritical.


Come on man....I already called Prince Of Darkness...thats 91. The Madonna and Playgirl shyt and u can still defend Kane till 93??





Kane did way more to be dismissed before Puba in 94. Thats why I have Kane at 10 and Puba at 5. Yet you say I'm to dismiss Puba all together by 94 while arguing in favor of Kane who had more strikes against him.


Again,,,it looks off on your end.

 

[JustCKing]

00000000000000000000000000000022


i answered both these things.

i answered the second question in my first fukk'n post.

you skimmed this thread like you skimmed knowing culturally anything in this era about hiphop.

art barr

You didn't answer it. Saying everything changed after Illmatic isn't an answer. You have yet to explain how Illmatic changed Hip Hop culture in 1994. Which was my point with Doggystyle. About 6 months and some change after Snoop dropped the album, Da Brat comes with a look, style, flow and sound directly lifted from Snoop's debut.

In regard to age, specifically, age 25, you have yet to explain how a 90's rapper would be viewed as old in 1994 when they debuted in the 90's. You listed Kane and KRS when both had debuts that were nearly a decade old by 1994 so of course they would be looked at as "old" and I understand that this kind of what this list is getting: although "old", they had established legacies to the point where they were being viewed as all time greats.

 

[Wacky D]

1.Lol,if it's still a classic,it's still a classic.
Bad by Mj sold maybe a 3rd of what thriller did and is a step down song for song (IMO) Still a classic.

Are you implying that all classics are created equal and precisely as good as every other album considered classic?

2.I dismissed you and rightfully so. If asking you to back up a statement YOU MADE is too much,maybe your statement is holds no weight. THIS IS A COP OUT. Which i figured you would take. Cause you aint built like that and dont know this shyt like me.

3.So by this logic,i would assume that new Nas fans skip over illmatic and go to stillmatic,it was written and I Am?

4.

5.Really,how so?

6.COP OUT ALERT. You made a statement,if you meant it back it up. It's not like they had a million verses in 1994. They probably had 5/6 tops. So let me know which ones outshined Snoop and Pac's entire 91'/92' - 1994 verses.
Or you could just fall the fukk back like you should have did in the first place lil nikka.

7.Art Barr DID say that. If you dont agree,then we're good (on that point)

8.You can say it a few more times and you'll still be wrong a few more times. You cant be outsold 2-1 and be on the SAME level nor can you be bigger.
2 mil and 4 mil are not the same numbers.

9.That's NOT the point. The argument is whom was bigger in 1994,not which album was bigger. So MY point still stands. Snoop was bigger in 1994. Doesnt matter when the album cycle ends. The core argument is which artist(s) was bigger. The answer is snoop,easily.

10.His argument is that Bizzy and Krayzie were bigger than pac and snoop. That is not true. Nor were anyone saying they were better than pac or snoop. (lil nikka you wasnt there)

You dont have to recall. I do. stay in your lane then.
You can't be a bigger draw out the gate,when you're not bigger AT ALL (IN 1994)

1.) this is a poor comparison seeing that real OG black Michael Jackson fans generally don't care for either album like that.
2.) or maybe I just didn't have time to type an essay for a pointless argument. as you can see, I'm just now responding 2 days later as it is.

3.) you missed the point by a mile. I'm defending ice cube's legacy here. no need for you to argue with me and turn it into an east/west debate.
the difference between Nas & cube is that cube's peak predates modern rap history. even people on the west coast that are under the age range, generally don't know cube's track record like that. I wish I had a link to the interview where nipsey hussle admitted himself. the predator is really all they know.
since you want to compare the two so bad, it would be like somebody checking for Nas and going str8 for the "I am" album, because it had "hate me now" on there, and basically judging Nas off of that album, and not even bothering to check out illmatic or IWW. but again, Nas had a different heyday, so he doesn't have to worry about that.

5.) urban culture & hip-hop culture are 2 different entities - especially back then. the '95 bone comment you pulled from another thread, was him speaking from a hip-hop culture perspective. his comment's on '94 bone's influence in this thread, is based on urban culture.

6.) it doesn't take much to be considered a better lyricist than snoop dogg and 2pac.

8/9.) why are you arguing with me about this?? LOL. I didn't say I agreed or disagreed. I'm just relaying the message. don't shoot the messenger.
and sure, he outsold them 2 to 1, but the promotion ratio was like 8 to 1.
and I brought up his album droppin in '93, because youre comparing 6 months of sales to like 16 months.

10.) again. not my argument. get out your feelings weirdo.

11.) a bigger star and a bigger draw are two different things.

Scargace spitting a line isn't an industry co-sign.

People did care about Thug Life. It became something that people attached to rap the same way the attached gangs to rap. It became cultural.

And see this is what I'm talking about. I wasn't talking about him reiteritating/regurgutating anything, I was talking to you in reference to you talkong about applying 2018 to 1994.

Point is he stopped discussing it for whatever reason. You could've stated your thoughts without ever attempting to explain what you think he meant.

Illmatic was slept on culturally. It wasn't exactly creating tidal waves out here. And since you want to harp on industry co-signs, that is what Illmatic backed by until Nas blew up.

I almost stopped reading after the first sentence.

"thug life" became cultural in 96-97 after pac died.

you are indeed using 2018 talking points. youre even forcing the issue in the post I quoted below.

illmatic was NOT slept-on culturally. some of you guys gotta realize that youre just not from cities/counties that were connected to hip-hop culture like that.

One more thing I wanted to address. How exactly was being 25 veing relatively ild for a rapper? Biggie was 22 when he dripped his debut in 1994. A lot of the rappers discussed here were at or near Pac's age, but @Wacky D is saying 25 was relatively old.

ur doing it again.

in 2018, 25 may be a baby, but back in those days, most rappers had already peaked and were borderline old school vets by 25.

 

[Art Barr]

This is nonsensical. Me telling you a release date would prove nothing. I don't remember what else came out on the same date as a lot of my favorite albums. If you really wanted to test to me on that, you could do much better than that especially since a lot of Hip Hop music of that era was borrowed/dubbed/traded with friends and relatives especially if it was a big deal. Never said that I bought it on the release date or that bought Chronic the day it came out either. Also, I never stated or implied that I was a "b boy". All I did was call two things into questions:

1) How was being 25 old in 1994

2) How did Illmatic move the culture in 1994 (never said that it didn't move the culture period)

^^^ Both points were tap danced around and never addressed.

I answered both these questions in my first post and on page seven i answered the questions about age as well. There is a discussion in this thread about being on your third album and the usual album sales envelope cycle of rap artist only being three albums as well.

You just skimmed this thread like you skimmed your lacking knowledge of actual hip hop culture.

You do not know hiphop culture like that at all.
So why do you keep talking like you do.

No one who is a real bboy is fooled.
So if you are not a bboy.
Why are you acting as though you are well versed on the culture like you were there and understand what took place in hip hop actual culture.

Art Barr

 

[bigbadbossup2012]

1.Lol,if it's still a classic,it's still a classic.
Bad by Mj sold maybe a 3rd of what thriller did and is a step down song for song (IMO) Still a classic.

Are you implying that all classics are created equal and precisely as good as every other album considered classic?

2.I dismissed you and rightfully so. If asking you to back up a statement YOU MADE is too much,maybe your statement is holds no weight. THIS IS A COP OUT. Which i figured you would take. Cause you aint built like that and dont know this shyt like me.

3.So by this logic,i would assume that new Nas fans skip over illmatic and go to stillmatic,it was written and I Am?

4.

5.Really,how so?

6.COP OUT ALERT. You made a statement,if you meant it back it up. It's not like they had a million verses in 1994. They probably had 5/6 tops. So let me know which ones outshined Snoop and Pac's entire 91'/92' - 1994 verses.
Or you could just fall the fukk back like you should have did in the first place lil nikka.

7.Art Barr DID say that. If you dont agree,then we're good (on that point)

8.You can say it a few more times and you'll still be wrong a few more times. You cant be outsold 2-1 and be on the SAME level nor can you be bigger.
2 mil and 4 mil are not the same numbers.

9.That's NOT the point. The argument is whom was bigger in 1994,not which album was bigger. So MY point still stands. Snoop was bigger in 1994. Doesnt matter when the album cycle ends. The core argument is which artist(s) was bigger. The answer is snoop,easily.

10.His argument is that Bizzy and Krayzie were bigger than pac and snoop. That is not true. Nor were anyone saying they were better than pac or snoop. (lil nikka you wasnt there)

You dont have to recall. I do. stay in your lane then.
You can't be a bigger draw out the gate,when you're not bigger AT ALL (IN 1994)

1.) this is a poor comparison seeing that real OG black Michael Jackson fans generally don't care for either album like that.
2.) or maybe I just didn't have time to type an essay for a pointless argument. as you can see, I'm just now responding 2 days later as it is.

3.) you missed the point by a mile. I'm defending ice cube's legacy here. no need for you to argue with me and turn it into an east/west debate.
the difference between Nas & cube is that cube's peak predates modern rap history. even people on the west coast that are under the age range, generally don't know cube's track record like that. I wish I had a link to the interview where nipsey hussle admitted himself. the predator is really all they know.
since you want to compare the two so bad, it would be like somebody checking for Nas and going str8 for the "I am" album, because it had "hate me now" on there, and basically judging Nas off of that album, and not even bothering to check out illmatic or IWW. but again, Nas had a different heyday, so he doesn't have to worry about that.

5.) urban culture & hip-hop culture are 2 different entities - especially back then. the '95 bone comment you pulled from another thread, was him speaking from a hip-hop culture perspective. his comment's on '94 bone's influence in this thread, is based on urban culture.

6.) it doesn't take much to be considered a better lyricist than snoop dogg and 2pac.

8/9.) why are you arguing with me about this?? LOL. I didn't say I agreed or disagreed. I'm just relaying the message. don't shoot the messenger.
and sure, he outsold them 2 to 1, but the promotion ratio was like 8 to 1.
and I brought up his album droppin in '93, because youre comparing 6 months of sales to like 16 months.

10.) again. not my argument. get out your feelings weirdo.

11A.) a bigger star and a bigger draw are two different things.





I almost stopped reading after the first sentence.

11B"thug life" became cultural in 96-97 after pac died.



11C illmatic was NOT slept-on culturally. some of you guys gotta realize that youre just not from cities/counties that were connected to hip-hop culture like that.






.

1.Wrong it's actually a great comparison. It was immediately following two back to back albums just like predator followed two back to back classics. You wasnt even alive when "black Michael jackson" was dropping albums lil nikka. You dont even know that experience. Like I said,despite Bad not being thriller and Predator not being death certificate,both were classics. NOTHING in your response negates that. You lose

2.You said Predator was NOT a top tier album of 1992.
("1.the predator was a few steps down from his previous albums.

2.and also not on par with the top-tier albums of the time."
http://www.thecoli.com/goto/post?id=28855478#post-28855478 )
You seemed pretty sure of yourself. I asked you what albums were above it and why/how so AND YOU COULDN'T ANSWER. You just continue to spin instead of BACKING UP WHAT YOU SAID. You lose again

3.I didnt miss anything,you were on your hating on THE PREDATOR album bullshyt,
(3.the predator being his most successful elbum is the reason why ice cube's legacy is so underrated actually.
http://www.thecoli.com/goto/post?id=28855478#post-28855478 )

Blaming The predator being a better success at retail for people underrating Cube.Citing that people would be more prone to go back to predator vs DC when they checked out cube.. It was a back handed compliment to Ice cube and also a bullshyt excuse for why Cube being underrated. When in reality,cube is underrated for the same reason EVERY west coast artist is underrated. I challenged your bullshyt theory BY ASKING WOULD PEOPLE WHOM DONT KNOW NASIR'S MUSIC,GO BACK TO THE ALBUMS THAT SOLD MORE THAN ILLMATIC? You lose



5.Why lie,when you know i'm going to son you with proof?
. You claim,IN THIS THREAD HE WAS TALKING ABOUT BONE'S INFLUENCE ON URBAN CULTURE (not hiphop culture like YOU CLAIM he was doing in the other thread,),when clear as day,he's right here talking about skills etc IN THIS VERY THREAD "Bizzy and crazy was regarded as way more skilled than Pac or snoop, breh." http://www.thecoli.com/goto/post?id=28748911#post-28748911
You lose again

6.And here you go ducking again. nikka if you really meant what you said: "krayzie & bizzy were clearly better lyricists than pac & snoop from day one breh. it doesn't take a full LP release to realize that." http://www.thecoli.com/goto/post?id=28855478#post-28855478
Why is it so hard for you to back it up? It's simple. Them dudes got 5/6 verses tops,on CREEPIN ON AH COME UP. Drop some of the ones that TOTALLY eclipse what pac and snoop did from 91'/92' through 94' on the microphone. GO!
You got Ohhla,you got rap genius etc. It;s not hard, if you really stand behind what you said.

So they need to outshine
The Chronic
Doggystyle
Murder was the case (not every song obviously)
Above the Rim (not every song obviously)
2pacalypse now
S4MN
Thuglife







8/9. This where you got it twisted. Those that oppose me on this subject are "comparing 6 months to 16 months" etc. I'm just holding the mirror a lil closer to them and putting a lil windex on it,so they can see clearly that they're wrong.
I didnt make the rules nor did i create this topic. Which is who were looking like top 5 through 1994. The argument is NOT which album was bigger from the beginning to the end of their sales run. The argument is whom did what through 1994. The winner of that argument is Snoop D.O. double G. over Bone. Bringing up what they did after 1994 is a whole different argument. Bringing up which album had a better run in it's totality is also a different argument. You and your daddy art lose again.

10.You jumped in and should of stayed in your lane.

11.a Anybody knows Creepin on ah come up was bigger than any 2pac album up to that point. However Krayzie and Bizzy were not clearly not big as 2pac in 1994 at all. (which was his argument) And personally i dont believe the group as a whole was bigger than 2pac in his totality.

11.B Nonsense. That thuglife tattoo,which made it's debut in 1993 is probably the most famous tattoo on any rapper and has been since it's inception. Also 2pac is responsible for popularizing tattoos amongst (non gang member) black people. I personally saw groups of dudes walking around with shaved heads,pac styled scarfs and tee shirts saying thug 4 life in 1995. Also there's a reason Mobb and Nas were adlibing "thuglife we still living it" in 1995.


11.C Illmatic was pumped up in the media. It flopped. And it wasnt running shyt outside the east

In closing,stay in a lil lame nikkas place and study this shyt before you step to someone as knowledgeable as me. #levels
#youWERENTthere
#whoRAISEDyou

 

[JustCKing]

1.) this is a poor comparison seeing that real OG black Michael Jackson fans generally don't care for either album like that.
2.) or maybe I just didn't have time to type an essay for a pointless argument. as you can see, I'm just now responding 2 days later as it is.

3.) you missed the point by a mile. I'm defending ice cube's legacy here. no need for you to argue with me and turn it into an east/west debate.
the difference between Nas & cube is that cube's peak predates modern rap history. even people on the west coast that are under the age range, generally don't know cube's track record like that. I wish I had a link to the interview where nipsey hussle admitted himself. the predator is really all they know.
since you want to compare the two so bad, it would be like somebody checking for Nas and going str8 for the "I am" album, because it had "hate me now" on there, and basically judging Nas off of that album, and not even bothering to check out illmatic or IWW. but again, Nas had a different heyday, so he doesn't have to worry about that.

5.) READ UP

6.) it doesn't take much to be considered a better lyricist than snoop dogg and 2pac.

8/9.) why are you arguing with me about this?? LOL. I didn't say I agreed or disagreed. I'm just relaying the message. don't shoot the messenger.
and sure, he outsold them 2 to 1, but the promotion ratio was like 8 to 1.
and I brought up his album droppin in '93, because youre comparing 6 months of sales to like 16 months.

10.) again. not my argument. get out your feelings weirdo.

11.) a bigger star and a bigger draw are two different things.





I almost stopped reading after the first sentence.

"thug life" became cultural in 96-97 after pac died.

you are indeed using 2018 talking points. youre even forcing the issue in the post I quoted below.

illmatic was NOT slept-on culturally. some of you guys gotta realize that youre just not from cities/counties that were connected to hip-hop culture like that.






ur doing it again.

in 2018, 25 may be a baby, but back in those days, most rappers had already peaked and were borderline old school vets by 25.

Thug Life was a thing before Pac's death. Again, Face was associating that with Pac in 1994. It wasn't a simple shout out to a homie because he could've just mentioned him and kept it moving. He didn't.

I am not using 2018 talking points. In 2018, being 25 is "old". You got Lil Uzi out here saying if you are over 25, you're old. In 2018, 25 is old. In 1994, being 25 wasn't old for a rapper unless you had music out that was nearly a decade old. Nobody was looking at rappers like Wu, Biggie, Warren G or Pac, rappers nearing 25, as old.

In regard to Illmatic, when music is impactful culturally, you'd have to be living under a rock not to feel it. Please enlighten me on how it changed everything. I mean with Snoop, there was Da Brat. Then you had the shift toward the sound of Chronic and Doggystyle. I mean, Ready To Die even lifts soundbites from Chronic on "Things Done Changed".

 

[JustCKing]

I answered both these questions in my first post and on page seven i answered the questions about age as well. There is a discussion in this thread about being on your third album and the usual album sales envelope cycle of rap artist only being three albums as well.

You just skimmed this thread like you skimmed your lacking knowledge of actual hip hop culture.

You do not know hiphop culture like that at all.
So why do you keep talking like you do.

No one who is a real bboy is fooled.
So if you are not a bboy.
Why are you acting as though you are well versed on the culture like you were there and understand what took place in hip hop actual culture.

Art Barr

I remember the discussion about being on the third album and rappers not being relevant beyond that point. That is still irrelevant. That has more to do with number of albums than it does age. In 1994, there were rappers three albums deep under age 25.

I am not acting like a b boy. I am posing legitimate questions and all I've gotten is ramblings. I asked for specifics and not a blanket statement like "everything changed after Illmatic". I'm specifically talking about who or what changed in 1994 as a direct result of Illmatic. How did the soundscape change? What artists started trying to emulate his style? What influence did it have on slang? What did it do to change the overall trajectory of Hip Hop in 1994 to where you had to put Nas in a Top 5 All Time?