Why is pop/catchy music frowned upon in hip-hop/R&B?

[mobbinfms]

Critics were calling It Was Written Pop. It was one of the main critiques of the album. In fact, it's one of the main critiques of the entire Escobar era of Nas's career. Without the backlash, he wouldn't have needed to make "Hate Me Now" in response to critics or "Nas Is Like" to remind people that he could still deliver Illmatic-esque music.

If critics called it pop that's because, like I said at the very beginning, we do tend to use these terms interchangeably.

The critique of the Escobar era isn't that he went pop, it's that he went commercial, the beats weren't as good, the Escobar persona was and that he fell of lyrically on the Firm album.

Most of IWW is hook driven: "Street Dreams", "If I Ruled The World", "I Gave You Power", "Watch Dem nikkas", "Nas Is Coming", "Shootouts", "Suspect"

Did you just say I Gave You Power is a hook driven record?

Missy was not done. She just wasn't releasing any music.

What's the difference. She was gone. It was a glorious time.

regard to BEP, "Where Is The Love" is nothing like Missy. Neither is "Let's Get Retarded". "My Humps" is the only song out of that run that sounds like a Missy song.

Yeah - they weren't making the same exact type of music, but they shared a fanbase.

fan base overlaps with that of Luda and Busta in terms of rappers of or near her era. I'd throw Em

I think Missy's biggest markets are women, gays, and R&B fans and casuals.
I don't see Luda and Busta having those fanbases.
Em attracts white casuals, lyrical miracles and initially hip hop fans looking to see what Dre was gonna do.

 

[JustCKing]

If critics called it pop that's because, like I said at the very beginning, we do tend to use these terms interchangeably.

The critique of the Escobar era isn't that he went pop, it's that he went commercial, the beats weren't as good, the Escobar persona was and that he fell of lyrically on the Firm album.

Point is "critics called it Pop" and so did fans vs. you saying "nobody was saying IWW was Pop":

“The problems with It Was Written are not in what is written or how it flows but in its consistently aggressive attempts at pop music,” wrote Ex. "When Nas arrived, he was touted as a microphone god. He remains a poignant figure with a panoramic view of the real and metaphorical ghetto. And his flow is still astounding. But Nas requires a sonic tapestry as multihued and breathtaking as his rhymes -- and then the pop success he obviously desires will occur, organically. It Was Written is adequate. Unfortunately, though, Nas’s own second coming isn’t nearly as satisfying as his first one." It seemed that It Was Written was never quite given its just due based on its predecessor.

^^^ Excerpt from an article in 1996.

"Bu, but, commercial isn't the same as Pop". Understand what commercial then tell me it's not the same as Pop. Commerce, which is the basis of what commercialism is concerns itself with "selling". Tell me, what is the goal of Pop music. If the goal of Pop music isn't to sell, please enlighten me as to how commercial and Pop music aren't interchangeable. "Bu, but Pop music has a certain sound". Commercial music and Pop music have the same sound because they are aimed toward the same audiences: anybody with ears.

Did you just say I Gave You Power is a hook driven record?

[Hook] x2
How you like me now? I go blaow
It's that shyt that moves crowds making every ghetto foul
I might have took your first child
Scarred your life, crippled your style
I gave you power, I made you buckwild

Epic record with top notch storytelling, imagery, and overall lyricism. Still that hook drives it home.

What's the difference. She was gone. It was a glorious time.

There's a difference. And if you're referring to it as a glorious time. If you as a Hip Hop head feel it was glorious and no serious Hip Hop heads were listening to her, how then were you hearing her songs outside of radio (because you could've easily changed the station).

Yeah - they weren't making the same exact type of music, but they shared a fanbase.

They didn't exactly share fan bases.

I think Missy's biggest markets are women, gays, and R&B fans and casuals.
I don't see Luda and Busta having those fanbases.
Em attracts white casuals, lyrical miracles and initially hip hop fans looking to see what Dre was gonna do.

You thinking what Missy's biggest markets are really says nothing. Can you prove it?

Luda, Busta and Missy share fan bases. Just because you don't see it, doesn't make it untrue. Ludacris was even going to make an album with Missy on the strength of the success of "Gossip Folks". Missy and Busta have been compared to each other as far as being visual artists. Eminem attracts more listeners than the ones you just reduced his fan base to.

 

[SirBiatch]

Point is "critics called it Pop" and so did fans vs. you saying "nobody was saying IWW was Pop":

“The problems with It Was Written are not in what is written or how it flows but in its consistently aggressive attempts at pop music,” wrote Ex. "When Nas arrived, he was touted as a microphone god. He remains a poignant figure with a panoramic view of the real and metaphorical ghetto. And his flow is still astounding. But Nas requires a sonic tapestry as multihued and breathtaking as his rhymes -- and then the pop success he obviously desires will occur, organically. It Was Written is adequate. Unfortunately, though, Nas’s own second coming isn’t nearly as satisfying as his first one." It seemed that It Was Written was never quite given its just due based on its predecessor.

^^^ Excerpt from an article in 1996.

"Bu, but, commercial isn't the same as Pop". Understand what commercial then tell me it's not the same as Pop. Commerce, which is the basis of what commercialism is concerns itself with "selling". Tell me, what is the goal of Pop music. If the goal of Pop music isn't to sell, please enlighten me as to how commercial and Pop music aren't interchangeable. "Bu, but Pop music has a certain sound". Commercial music and Pop music have the same sound because they are aimed toward the same audiences: anybody with ears.



[Hook] x2
How you like me now? I go blaow
It's that shyt that moves crowds making every ghetto foul
I might have took your first child
Scarred your life, crippled your style
I gave you power, I made you buckwild

Epic record with top notch storytelling, imagery, and overall lyricism. Still that hook drives it home.



There's a difference. And if you're referring to it as a glorious time. If you as a Hip Hop head feel it was glorious and no serious Hip Hop heads were listening to her, how then were you hearing her songs outside of radio (because you could've easily changed the station).



They didn't exactly share fan bases.



You thinking what Missy's biggest markets are really says nothing. Can you prove it?

Luda, Busta and Missy share fan bases. Just because you don't see it, doesn't make it untrue. Ludacris was even going to make an album with Missy on the strength of the success of "Gossip Folks". Missy and Busta have been compared to each other as far as being visual artists. Eminem attracts more listeners than the ones you just reduced his fan base to.

honestly breh, I don't know why you bother.

 

[JustCKing]

how about everything is gray area when it comes to @JustCKing.

I'm not trying to diss the guy, but he doesn't like to think.

also, he seems to have trouble understanding the difference between a commercial or radio-friendly record as opposed to a full-on POP record.

also, just because you sample a pop record, it doesn't necessarily mean that your version is pop. @JustCKing

No, simply sampling a Pop record doesn't make it a Pop song. Interpolating lyrics from a Pop song and employing the same sing, songy melody does make it Pop though.

 

[Big Boss]

HipHop and R&B are Pop. Whats looked down on is watered down trash that lacks Soul, not catchy music

Facts

 

[JustCKing]

I just checked the credits. Tim did 4 beats on Vol 3. He was one of the producers on 11 of 15 on MCHG

No other producer, outside of K-Rob, Clue, and Rockwilder produced more than one song (not counting the bonus tracks) on Vol. 3. People give credit to Kanye for Blueprint all the time and he did the same amount of tracks as Just and Bink.

I wonder how billboard does this. I don't trust billboard to get it right. How do you differentiate between radio stations that play R&B and hip hop? Like the radio stations I grew up with in the Bay?

Either way, the charts aren't what @Wacky D is getting at at all.

It lists the 25 most popular hip-hop/rap songs, calculated weekly by airplay on rhythmic and urban radio stations and sales in hip hop-focused or exclusive markets. Hot Rap Songs - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

He was talking about Missy's songs were bigger with R&B crowds. It's something that he can't prove. It's a generalization based on his perception. Another could generalize that those records were bigger in rap. The reason I referred to the charts is because they differentiate between the two by gathering data from different markets.

It was a somber reflective song about death. The beat wasn't a club banger or even remotely feel good. Is this all coming down to them harmonizing? I'm not a fan of Bone, so if this record had far more harmonizing then there other records you may have a point.

It didn't have to be a club banger or feel good. It's still a crossover record. That record does have far more harmonizing than their other records especially when you compare that song to the first portion of the album.

Bone never made R&B songs though. They incorporated singing into their rapping, but it was unmistakably rapping though.

You're acting like he took the chorus part of that record for Street Dreams. They looped the hardest part of that record
So did Pac. Are you saying that was a Pop record too?
You got a point with the hook being from the Eurythmics. That was the sole grab for mainstream appeal because it had familiarity to such a wide audience. But having Nas sing it wasn't the "pop" way to go about it
Overall, it's barely a commercial record, if at all, and it's definitely not pop.

So they sampled the Sting record and put some hard drums over it
That's hip hop.

They did in fact sample the chorus part of the song for "Street Dreams".

There's a big difference between "Street Dreams" production wise and "Thug Passion". "Street Dreams" is near identical to the sampled song, "Thug Passion" isn't and Pac isn't incorporating the Eurythmics. Having Nas sing it was the Pop way to go about it. You're admitting that it was a mainstream grab by even incorporating the song in the first place. It's still a very commercial record.

Sampling Sting gives the song Pop appeal and throwing hard drums on it, gives it a Hip Hop feel.

Melody has such a broad definition it basically has no meaning.

Melody isn't a broad definition. It definitely has meaning. The biggest rappers ever mastered melody from Snoop to Biggie to Pac to Nelly to 50.

 

[JustCKing]

You don't seem to get that there are degrees with this stuff though. Yes, Nas had a radio friendly single, that doesn't make the entire album pop. Even the radio friendly single didn't venture into pop territory. Like i said at the very outset, very few rappers have gone pop.

it didn't keep fans and critics alike from referring to the sound as Pop though.

The two versions are virtually identical. The drum programming is different. I'm sure there are some other minor tweaks. Give me examples of what made the album version glossy and mass appea.

How are they virtually identical when the drums are different and there's other minor tweaks?

The prime example of what made the album version glossy for mass appeal is in the very two things you just pointed out. That Pete Rock version doesn't have the reach of the Trackmasters and Puff produced version.

That's not what I meant. By quintessential Bad Boy record I meant the production technique. Probably the quintessential Bad Boy record is I'll Be Missing you.

"Juicy" is the production technique that Bad Boy used. It's the template for nearly every hit they had post Ready To Die.

I'm not saying they never did this, but I need all the examples you got. You're making it sound like this is all they did.

It's not all they did. I didn't say that it was. They were responsible for the commercial sound of Hip Hop in the mid '90's. They are responsible for the commercial music you're referring to.

:tochilol:
Breakbeats?
Sampling?
Drums?

And I'm not saying every single hip hop record has to have a breakbeat and sample, but if you had to define hip hop in writing, you're gonna use those words.

Break beats is probably the only thing you listed that is exclusive to Hip Hop.

Of course it does. General Consensus isn't 100%.

It's still not general consensus. There's a handful of albums that you'd get a general consensus on.

Missy's flows and delivery were always corny though.

To you.

:tochilol:So no one can rap on her beats except all the rappers she got for features who always outshined her?

Supa Dupa Fly had three rap features Busta, Brat, and Missy (not counting Missy's artists who appear on the posse cut near the end of the album). Timbaland raps on a song as well. By the time she came out with her second album, Nas, Jay Z, and Snoop had songs with Timbaland production. His sound was common place.

Paid in Full is a classic hip hop album.

That's one of the handful of albums I was referring to above.

Nah. It was just goofy party music that got over because hip hop had gone in that direction by then.

Really? Maybe artists just wanted to have fun with their music again. There was a period in Hip Hop where artists had fun with their music. I guess this is goofy party music too then:

Like who?

Every artist I named in the post referring to artists with gay followings quite possibly have a large gay following. You're not selling 3-5 million copies without one. You're appealing to a mainstream audience, which includes gays and women.

 

[JustCKing]

Trackmasters constructed certain records to appeal to girls and people more R&B oriented. Exactly how they did it, I couldn't tell you because I don't make beats. They could make records targeted at the entire so called "urban" market. With Will, they went full on pop.

And what a way to kill your own argument. Tell me, The Trackmasters went full on pop with Will according to you. Tell me how these beats are Pop, but their productions on IWW aren't:

Just The Two Of Us
Miami
Yes, Yes, Ya'll
Chasing Forever
Just Cruisin'

 

[mobbinfms]

Point is "critics called it Pop" and so did fans vs. you saying "nobody was saying IWW was Pop":

“The problems with It Was Written are not in what is written or how it flows but in its consistently aggressive attempts at pop music,” wrote Ex. "When Nas arrived, he was touted as a microphone god. He remains a poignant figure with a panoramic view of the real and metaphorical ghetto. And his flow is still astounding. But Nas requires a sonic tapestry as multihued and breathtaking as his rhymes -- and then the pop success he obviously desires will occur, organically. It Was Written is adequate. Unfortunately, though, Nas’s own second coming isn’t nearly as satisfying as his first one." It seemed that It Was Written was never quite given its just due based on its predecessor.

^^^ Excerpt from an article in 1996.

The vibe review. "consistently aggressive attempts at pop music" :tochilol:
As much as I disagree, I still gotta salute a magazine for completely shytting on an album like that
I wish that happened a lot more after 96.
Still doesn't change what I'm saying about there being a difference between commercial or radio ready and full on pop. And that those terms are generally used interchangeably.

"Bu, but, commercial isn't the same as Pop". Understand what commercial then tell me it's not the same as Pop. Commerce, which is the basis of what commercialism is concerns itself with "selling". Tell me, what is the goal of Pop music. If the goal of Pop music isn't to sell, please enlighten me as to how commercial and Pop music aren't interchangeable. "Bu, but Pop music has a certain sound". Commercial music and Pop music have the same sound because they are aimed toward the same audiences: anybody with ears.

Are you saying that there is no difference between Nas on IWW and BEP with "Gotta Feeling"?

Still that hook drives it home.

Maybe I'm not understanding. What does hook driven mean to you?
I just listened to I Gave You Power yesterday and specifically the hook. The beat doesn't change and Nas is just rapping the hook. There is literally no focus on the hook. If you want to call something like "If I Ruled the World" hook driven I'd understand. But you seem to be taking the position that any song with a hook is hook driven.

There's a difference.

Ok. What's the difference?

They didn't exactly share fan bases.

Sure. I don't think any artist has a complete overlap.

You thinking what Missy's biggest markets are really says nothing. Can you prove it?

Of course not. Neither can you.

Luda, Busta and Missy share fan bases. Just because you don't see it, doesn't make it untrue. Ludacris was even going to make an album with Missy on the strength of the success of "Gossip Folks". Missy and Busta have been compared to each other as far as being visual artists. Eminem attracts more listeners than the ones you just reduced his fan base to.

Can you prove it?
Luda and Missy doing an album makes sense to expose one another to each others fanbases.
I agree on Missy and Busta being "visual" I don't see how that leads to a similar fanbase, unless there is a tiny demographic out there that cops albums based on how goofy a video is
And sure on Eminem. He went diamond twice.

 

[JustCKing]

The vibe review. "consistently aggressive attempts at pop music" :tochilol:
As much as I disagree, I still gotta salute a magazine for completely shytting on an album like that
I wish that happened a lot more after 96.
Still doesn't change what I'm saying about there being a difference between commercial or radio ready and full on pop. And that those terms are generally used interchangeably.

They didn't do that though. In fact they gave the album praise. What they knocked was the attempt to go Pop. You're taking "pop" as an insult to Nas's music because you define Pop in a negative light when not all Pop music is watered down garbage.

In reference to commercial/radio ready records vs. Pop records, what is an artist attempting to gain by making radio ready/commercial records? If it's not an attempt to appeal to as many people as possible (the masses), which is what Pop music essentially does, then what is it?

Are you saying that there is no difference between Nas on IWW and BEP with "Gotta Feeling"?

Of course there's a difference between IWW and "Gotta Feeling"There's a difference between what Michael Jackson on Thriller and Britney Spears' "One More Time". It's still Pop though.

Maybe I'm not understanding. What does hook driven mean to you?
I just listened to I Gave You Power yesterday and specifically the hook. The beat doesn't change and Nas is just rapping the hook. There is literally no focus on the hook. If you want to call something like "If I Ruled the World" hook driven I'd understand. But you seem to be taking the position that any song with a hook is hook driven.

The beat doesn't have to transition for it to be hook driven. The hook to that song is still catchy because it sticks with you and it works for that particular record, because the hook gives the gun personality.

Ok. What's the difference?

She wasn't out here flopping. She simply wasn't releasing any music. Done is when you're out here continuing to drop music, but it all flops.

Of course not. Neither can you.

I already did.

Can you prove it?
Luda and Missy doing an album makes sense to expose one another to each others fanbases.
I agree on Missy and Busta being "visual" I don't see how that leads to a similar fanbase, unless there is a tiny demographic out there that cops albums based on how goofy a video is
And sure on Eminem. He went diamond twice.

Ludacris | Similar Artists | AllMusic

 

[IllmaticDelta]

Yes it was. Motown made Pop music. I mean, Barry Gordy told Marvin Gaye that What's Going On wouldn't be successful because people wanted to hear love songs from him.

Motown intentionally made songs that they thought would "crossover" to the pop charts (white market). He didn't want to alienate white fans with militant music which is why he didn't want that Marvin Gay to drop

 

[IllmaticDelta]

Exactly. Especially the jump and skip over part.

At Fiesta Remix being a pop record.

that song is pop

 

[L. Deezy]

because hip hop is NOT pop music. It's defiant subculture. Do you understand what I mean by that?

lol.. how far are you talking?

Rap started over freaking disco beats and party rhymes.

I think the argument with hip hop is misguided. Its not about the content, its the lack of balance pushed to the masses

 

[Wacky D]

that song is pop

no its not.

I would say that its commercial, but its an r&b record.

You thinking what Missy's biggest markets are really says nothing. Can you prove it?

can you prove otherwise?

cuz all signs point to female/casual/gay/pop.

No, simply sampling a Pop record doesn't make it a Pop song. Interpolating lyrics from a Pop song and employing the same sing, songy melody does make it Pop though.

sampling a melody doesn't necessarily make it pop either.

this is pop now?

 

[IllmaticDelta]

no its not.

I would say that its commercial, but its an r&b record.

commercial records are "pop" by nature. R&B is a form of pop music