Why the rings argument dont work for Bill Russell

[Donald Trumps Twitter]

So your focus is on era and the warped statistics as a result of the relative novelty of the game (and tangentially, the lack of diversity making for decidedly stiffer league) which is reasonable. In particular, scoring and rebounding numbers are inflated while efficiency (more possessions = more shots = more bad shots) and assists (defined more strictly vs. now) are going to be deflated. What doesn't make a lot of sense to me is criticizing Russell and his achievements because he played in said era. What critique is it on Russell that Red made the trade that he did to get him?

Comparing someone doing something decades ago to someone doing something today is going to make for an unfair comparison. Without taking into account Russell's actual playstyle and what made him so revered in the first place is to ignore a huge portion of what this is about: contesting Russell's greatness. Nothing wrong with it, but there are better points to raise. Like his getting outplayed by Chamberlain in the 1967 EDF. Or that the concentration of HOF players on his team (though players like K.C. Jones and Satch Sanders aren't HOF-worthy talent wise...) was higher than basically any other rival's throughout his career (save for Chamberlain's mid-1960s Sixer teams, who were lowkey stacked and led by really great coaching).

Over the course of Russell's career, league average FG% was 42%. Russell's was 44.0%. A little above average. Not great, but his contemporaries (excluding Wilt because he's Wilt) also hover around that 42-44% mark.

Why compare Russell's FG% to Kobe's? Over the course of Kobe's career, league average FG% was 45%. Kobe's career average FG% is 44.7%, so right there. Why hold a mid-20th century player to 21st-century standards? Especially when both are around where they should be in terms of efficiency? When one was asked to do very different things on offense than the other?

Like you said and what should be mentioned, rebounding numbers are inflated. Though in comparison to his peers, Russell was pretty clearly only behind Chamberlain in terms of rebounding the ball. Even with inflated numbers, I'd consider him still comfortably in the top tier of rebounders to ever play (alongside Chamberlain, Rodman, Moses Malone etc.).

What you've neglected to mention is Russell's overall influence on the game.

Spoiler: Initiating Offense

Glamorous, not really, but he is almost always in motion, moving the ball, and part of the fast breaks (whether running it himself or sparking it with a block/outlet). Not a total liability, no?

Spoiler: Defense/rebounding

Russell's defensive ability and intangibles are probably the most well-known and well-covered aspects of his game, doesn't really need to be gone through in-depth.

Spoiler: Miscellaneous shyt

Good overviews of what Russell was about, especially in the playoffs. Speaking of playoffs...

Spoiler: Russell Closeout Game Stats

Russell in elimination games (17-2 record in elimination games) and other closeout games:

1957 Game 3 EDF vs. Nats: 10 pts, 23 reb, 2/4 FT (other stats not given)

1957 Game 7 NBA Finals vs. Hawks: 19 pts, 32 reb, 2 ast, 7/17 FG, 5/10 FT

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1958 Game 5 EDF vs. Warriors: 18 pts, 30 reb, 2 ast, (FG numbers not given)

1958 Game 4 NBA Finals vs. Hawks: 8 pts, 8 reb, 2/7 FG (other stats not given)
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1959 Game 7 EDF vs. Nats: 18 pts, 32 reb, 2 ast, 8/23 FG, 2/2 FT *FOULED OUT

1959 Game 4 NBA Finals vs. Lakers: 15 pts, 30 reb, 0 ast, 5/9 FG, 5/10 FT

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1960 Game 6 EDF vs. Warriors: 25 pts, 25 reb, 3 ast, 11/26 FG, 3/4 FT

1960 Game 7 NBA Finals vs. Hawks: 22 pts, 35 reb, 4 ast, 7/15 FG, 8/10 FT

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1961 Game 5 EDF vs. Nats: 25 pts, 33 reb, 3 ast, 11/17 FG, 3/7 FT

1961 Game 5 NBA Finals vs. Hawks: 30 pts, 38 reb, 3 ast, 9/17 FG, 12/17 FT

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1962 Game 7 EDF vs. Warriors: 19 pts, 22 reb, 1 ast, 7/14 FG, 5/5 FT

1962 Game 7 NBA Finals vs. Lakers: 30 pts, 40 reb, 4 ast, 8/18 FG, 14/17 FT

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1963 Game 7 EDF vs. Royals: 20 pts, 24 reb, 4 ast, 8/14 FG, 4/6 FT

1963 Game 6 NBA Finals vs. Lakers: 12 pts, 24 reb, 9 ast, 5/12 FG, 2/5 FT

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1964 Game 5 EDF vs. Royals: 20 pts, 35 reb, 7 ast, 7/16 FG, 6/7 FT

1964 Game 5 NBA Finals vs. Warriors: 14 pts, 26 reb, 6 ast, 5/11 FG, 4/5 FT

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1965 Game 7 EDF vs. 76ers: 15 pts, 29 reb, 8 ast, 7/16 FG, 1/2 FT

1965 Game 5 NBA Finals vs. Lakers: 22 pts, 30 reb, 4 ast, 6/9 FG, 10/11 FT

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1966 Game 5 First Round vs. Royals: 16 pts, 31 reb, 11 ast, 7/13 FG, 2/6 FT

1966 Game 5 ECF vs. 76ers: 18 pts, 31 reb, 6 ast, 6/11 FG, 6/10 FT

1966 Game 7 NBA Finals vs. Lakers: 25 pts, 32 reb, 1 ast, 10/22 FG, 5/5 FT

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1967 Game 4 First Round vs. Knicks: 4 pts, 16 reb, 2 ast, 1/6 FG, 2/4 FT *FOULED OUT

1967 Game 5 ECF vs. 76ers: 4 pts, 21 reb, 7 ast, 2/5 FG, 0/1 FT

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1968 Game 6 First Round vs. Pistons: 15 pts, 23 reb, 9 ast, 6/18 FG, 3/4 FT

1968 Game 7 ECF vs. 76ers: 12 pts, 26 reb, 5 ast, 4/6 FG, 4/10 FT

1968 Game 6 NBA Finals vs. Lakers: 12 pts, 19 reb, 6 ast, 5/7 FG, 2/2 FT

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1969 Game 5 First Round vs. 76ers: 5 pts, 1/3 ft (other stats not given)

1969 Game 6 ECF vs. Knicks: 12 pts, 0/3 ft (other stats not given)

1969 Game 7 NBA Finals vs. Lakers: 6 pts, 21 reb, 6 ast, 2/7 FG, 2/4 FT

Shout out @dantheman9758 for providing YT clips. Great channel worth exploring.

I see you ignored the fact that I said Bill was drafted onto the second best team in the league, when there were only 8 teams to begin with.


But keep on with your logical fallacies.

I never said Bill was trash, I said the league HE played in was trash and had overinflated rebounding stats.

Bill was good, but not THE BEST PLAYER EVER good.

 

[Mad Good Dro]

Pippen is better than Kobe then ​

 

[Donald Trumps Twitter]

Textbook goalposts move...

Me: “So and so” is the GOAT

You: Nah, not enough rings

Me: Oh, so if it’s just about rings you must have Bill Russell as the GOAT

You: Hell no, his era was weak as hell—barely any teams and full of cacs

Me: So, it’s got to be someone more recent—how about Big Shot Bob aka Robert Horry aka Mr. 7 Rangs

You: Don’t even get me started on that role player

And here we go

Well considering big shot bob only averaged 7 ppg for his career and NEVER cracked 13 ppg.


Yeah, he was a roleplayer. Idk how thats such a hard concept to grasp.

He played 18 seasons and only scored 10+ ppg in 3 seasons....

 

[Donald Trumps Twitter]

Pippen is better than Kobe then ​

Sorry, Pippen didnt win ANY rings as THE MAN

 

[Emoryal]

no

 

[Remote]

Sorry, Pippen didnt win ANY rings as THE MAN

Neither did Kobe

 

[camer999]

And Jordan played during an expansion era during a time where being 7ft alone was enough and skills weren't as polished and tons of players got by on being "enforcers". Now we have multiskilled players an centers who can play like centers and guards. While I believe the stars of that era would still be good today, clearly the avg player was worse.

 

[Donald Trumps Twitter]

Neither did Kobe

Kobe won AT LEAST TWO, as the unquestioned man.

You could argue a 3rd ring if you consider what he was doing in the conference playoffs to historic teams that would later on embarrass lebron.

 

[Hey_zeus]

Ring argument only works as a deflection when people don't want to discuss actual skill and ability. This is a team sport. Best teams always win in the NBA.

 

[Premeditated]

:cheeseeyes2:

 

[Rekkapryde]

Textbook goalposts move...

Me: “So and so” is the GOAT

You: Nah, not enough rings

Me: Oh, so if it’s just about rings you must have Bill Russell as the GOAT

You: Hell no, his era was weak as hell—barely any teams and full of cacs

Me: So, it’s got to be someone more recent—how about Big Shot Bob aka Robert Horry aka Mr. 7 Rangs

You: Don’t even get me started on that role player

/thread.

 

[Columbo]

:cheeseeyes2:

Your sig

 

[Sauce Dab]

Nah don't move those goalposts now. Y'all always talk about rings=GOAT. (Que the Kobe counting gif)
So by y'all logic Bill Russell is the GOAT. He's got the most rings and he was the go to player on his team. So 2 of the coli's GOATS and combined have the same number of rings as

 

[Donald Trumps Twitter]

/thread.

Yeah sure lets ignore facts.

“Goalpost move”

 

[Donald Trumps Twitter]

Nah don't move those goalposts now. Y'all always talk about rings=GOAT. (Que the Kobe counting gif)
So by y'all logic Bill Russell is the GOAT. He's got the most rings and he was the go to player on his team. So 2 of the coli's GOATS and combined have the same number of rings as

The 57 Celtics had to go through 7 other TOTAL NBA teams, and only had to beat 2 teams and win 7 games for a finals Championship.

The ECF was the first playoff series, then the Finals


Meanwhile the 00 Lakers had to go through 7 other teams JUST IN THE CONFERENCE PLAYOFFS, beat 4 total teams and win 15 games



Keep being delusional