30 Days of Keto

[ShenJingPoQi]

First of all, using groups like the Maasai and other nomadic pastoralists as a model for how our ancestors lived for most of our history is a mistake. Pastoralism (which is defined as living off the subsitence of domesticated animals) is as new to human society as agriculture and farming. Both came to human society is roughly the last 10,000 years. Humans have been on this planet for roughly 200,000 years according to modern science. So for 95% of human history we were neither farmers nor herders. Our ancestors were hunter-gatherers for almost all of human history. And it is in this lifestyle (hunter-gatherer) that our bodies evolved.

Why shouldn’t we use the Massai. Groups like the Massai, Dinka, Somali, Afar, and Nubian were a mixture of nomadic groups and sedentary groups. It just depended on that terrain they lived on. Massai for example are an ancient race of man who are tall, robust, free from modern disease and long life expectancy from western food.

Hunter gatherers are basically eating a ketogenic state or eat a ketogenic diet. Since in a hunter gather diet and environment there is NEVER enough carbs to actually get out of a ketogenic state unless they choose to reform and introduce agriculture. So are they eat a ketogenic state because of fasting or are they in a ketogenic state because they are eating a ketogenic diet and have no real carb to starchy carbs. The answer is clearly the latter

[QUOTE/Next, you seem to be misinformed on the particulars of the keto diet and how fruits and meat affect insulin. Fruits don't contain just fructose, they also contain sucrose (aka good ole sugar). Here is a link explaining it: Sucrose vs Glucose vs Fructose: What's the Difference?

All sugars (even fructose) raise insulin levels. Fructose just doesn't do it as much as sucrose or glucose which is why eating fruits is preferred to eating just sucrose or glucose. But nonetheless if you consume enough fruits it will raise your insulin given the fructose and sucrose in them. Its why many of the biggest Keto diet proponents on the internet advice people on which fruits to eat and how much. If fruits couldn't knock you out of ketosis these videos and articles wouldn't exist.[/QUOTE]

Fructose does not raise Insulin. Research the works of Dr Robert Lustig. Metabolically Fructose works EVERY different to glucose. Surcose does raise Insulin because sucrose contains glucose. In nature, and I mean real nature free from man’s inventions, there isn’t enough fruits(Nor are they in quantity or size) to consume enough to raise insulin and remove one out of a ketogenic state.

People are giving those advices because we are dealing with MODERN FRUITS. You are changing the goal post. Fruits in nature like apple, banana, strawberry and so on are so rarity, come seasonally, don’t contain much sugar and are more fibrous.

This is why I am against the keto diet. It is unnatural because its not only low carb but also pretty low on protein. Its a diet on mostly eating fats.

Once again, our ancestors were not trying to avoid foods available in nature so they could stay in ketosis. They got into ketosis by FASTING. Because the biggest difference between the past and now is how OFTEN we eat. In the past our ancestors would regularly go days without food before they made a kill. Then they would feast. Its these cycles of feasting and fasting that our bodies evolved to handle. Our bodies didn't evolve to eating 3 small meals a day made up of mostly fats.

Keto diet is not low protein. It is 80% Fat with 20% Protein on average but there is no actual ratio. Some go 60/40 and so on, it is up to the individual.

This is where we differ.

1 You say our ancestor didn’t do Keto because they didn’t deliberately carbs sources like fruits, vegetables and grains. I say they didn’t avoid those carbs source because they were NEVER available in nature.

2 You say they got into a ketogenic state because fasting. I say they always were in a ketogenic state because there wasn’t carbs in nature they could get you out of a ketogenic state and people primarily used animals fats as energy.

No points going on circles,

 

[Swagnificent]

Why shouldn’t we use the Massai. Groups like the Massai, Dinka, Somali, Afar, and Nubian were a mixture of nomadic groups and sedentary groups. It just depended on that terrain they lived on. Massai for example are an ancient race of man who are tall, robust, free from modern disease and long life expectancy from western food.

Hunter gatherers are basically eating a ketogenic state or eat a ketogenic diet. Since in a hunter gather diet and environment there is NEVER enough carbs to actually get out of a ketogenic state unless they choose to reform and introduce agriculture. So are they eat a ketogenic state because of fasting or are they in a ketogenic state because they are eating a ketogenic diet and have no real carb to starchy carbs. The answer is clearly the latter

"Next, you seem to be misinformed on the particulars of the keto diet and how fruits and meat affect insulin. Fruits don't contain just fructose, they also contain sucrose (aka good ole sugar). Here is a link explaining it: Sucrose vs Glucose vs Fructose: What's the Difference?

All sugars (even fructose) raise insulin levels. Fructose just doesn't do it as much as sucrose or glucose which is why eating fruits is preferred to eating just sucrose or glucose. But nonetheless if you consume enough fruits it will raise your insulin given the fructose and sucrose in them. Its why many of the biggest Keto diet proponents on the internet advice people on which fruits to eat and how much. If fruits couldn't knock you out of ketosis these videos and articles wouldn't exist."

Fructose does not raise Insulin. Research the works of Dr Robert Lustig. Metabolically Fructose works EVERY different to glucose. Surcose does raise Insulin because sucrose contains glucose. In nature, and I mean real nature free from man’s inventions, there isn’t enough fruits(Nor are they in quantity or size) to consume enough to raise insulin and remove one out of a ketogenic state.

People are giving those advices because we are dealing with MODERN FRUITS. You are changing the goal post. Fruits in nature like apple, banana, strawberry and so on are so rarity, come seasonally, don’t contain much sugar and are more fibrous.



Keto diet is not low protein. It is 80% Fat with 20% Protein on average but there is no actual ratio. Some go 60/40 and so on, it is up to the individual.

This is where we differ.

1 You say our ancestor didn’t do Keto because they didn’t deliberately carbs sources like fruits, vegetables and grains. I say they didn’t avoid those carbs source because they were NEVER available in nature.

2 You say they got into a ketogenic state because fasting. I say they always were in a ketogenic state because there wasn’t carbs in nature they could get you out of a ketogenic state and people primarily used animals fats as energy.

No points going on circles,

Look buddy I'll explain it this simply one more time cause you seem to have ignored my previous post which was lengthy and detailed.

(1) The reason pastoralists (regardless of the specific ethnic group) aren't a good barometer for how ancestors ate is because they live off the subsistence of domesticated animals. All that milk your pastoralist ancestors drink only came about recently when our ancestors domesticated animals. For 95% of human history there were no domesticated animals to drink milk from.

(2) There are no refrigerators in the African savannah and temperatures never get cool enough to store meat. That means for most of our history whenever our ancestors made a kill, they had to eat the entire animal shortly afterwards or risk the meat going bad. As the article I posted states, if you eat enough protein then your body will start turning protein into glucose by a process called gluconeogenisis spiking your insulin and taking you out of ketosis.

So you see, you don't need to consume carbs to be out of ketosis. You eat enough meat (which our ancestors definitely did cause they weren't saving shyt for later like we can now thanks to refrigeration) and you still spike your insulin and are out of ketosis.

At the end of the day it comes down to one simple thing: FASTING. That is how our ancestors entered into ketosis. They did not do it by eating small amounts of protein and lots of fat in small increments. They would go through cycles of FEASTING and FASTING. That is all.

 

[ShenJingPoQi]

Look buddy I'll explain it this simply one more time cause you seem to have ignored my previous post which was lengthy and detailed.

(1) The reason pastoralists (regardless of the specific ethnic group) aren't a good barometer for how ancestors ate is because they live off the subsistence of domesticated animals. All that milk your pastoralist ancestors drink only came about recently when our ancestors domesticated animals. For 95% of human history there were no domesticated animals to drink milk from.

(2) There are no refrigerators in the African savannah and temperatures never get cool enough to store meat. That means for most of our history whenever our ancestors made a kill, they had to eat the entire animal shortly afterwards or risk the meat going bad. As the article I posted states, if you eat enough protein then your body will start turning protein into glucose by a process called gluconeogenisis spiking your insulin and taking you out of ketosis.

So you see, you don't need to consume carbs to be out of ketosis. You eat enough meat (which our ancestors definitely did cause they weren't saving shyt for later like we can now thanks to refrigeration) and you still spike your insulin and are out of ketosis.

At the end of the day it comes down to one simple thing: FASTING. That is how our ancestors entered into ketosis. They did not do it by eating small amounts of protein and lots of fat in small increments. They would go through cycles of FEASTING and FASTING. That is all.

I have never read such nonsense in my life.

Humans weren’t stupid. This idea that they ate fast ate fast is nonsensical. Africans groups once they killed the animals dried the meats and preserved it in salt and fat. Stop watching national geographic and actually go to Africa. They ate at the time of the kill and made sure the rest of the animals was saved for latter meals. So, people never actually had shortage of food. For example, Quanta dried Ethiopian beef lasted for MONTHS. All other ethnic groups have some form of dried, fermented or preserved foods. People are so divorced from reality.

Protein doesn’t work the same as glucose. You applying two different macro nutrients and assuming they work the same. Protein is a building block, any excess protein is excreted through urine or stool, while a small amount can be converted to glucose BUT nowhere near the amount to get one out of a ketogenic state. And the protein being converted to glucose is temporarily and happens within minutes if not less. Again, Keto is a high fat diet, hence why ancient societies prized fats like Ghee, Butter, and fermented dairy products.

You didn’t address once in my point the limited carbs sources in nature. Fruits, Grains, and vegetables in nature without man’s advent of agriculture can produce enough glucose to get someone out of a ketogenic state. People weren’t in a ketogenic state of fasting because were in a ketogenic state because they were born in one and the unavailable nature of glucose in nature. I’m not arguing the merit of fasting but fasting isn’t necessary to be in a ketogenic state.

I won’t argue any further, people were in a ketogenic state because you were born in a fat burning state, fat is a superior fuel than glucose, fat gives you more energy than glucose per gram, fat is nature is easier to access than glucose and people were in a ketogenic state because of the absent of carbs in a quantity to get them out of keto. End of.

 

[Maluma]

These are some great ideas and really interesting convos up in here. Thanks guys!

Yeah outside of the one autistic fraud ITT it’s been a good convo.

 

[Swagnificent]

I have never read such nonsense in my life.

Humans weren’t stupid. This idea that they ate fast ate fast is nonsensical. Africans groups once they killed the animals dried the meats and preserved it in salt and fat. Stop watching national geographic and actually go to Africa. They ate at the time of the kill and made sure the rest of the animals was saved for latter meals.

Stop talking to me about MODERN humans. I'm talking about our ancient ancestors. Those that lived 20,000-200,000 years. And stupid the fasting wasn't by choice. It was because life was tougher back then and our ancestors didn't have access to food all the time. In the ancient past humans lived similar to other animals and I don't know how much you know about the eating habits of most meat eaters but they also live on feasting and fasting cycles. When our ancestors didn't have access to food they entered ketosis. When they ate they weren't in ketosis anymore. Its that simple.

You can continue to cite modern people and their modern techniques thinking that's how its always been. I'll continue to watch national geographic as you said and learn about modern day hunter-gatherer tribes who still live today like our ancestors lived 20,000+ years ago before animals were domesticated. The pastoralists you cited are not reflective of how our ancestors lived for 95% of our history.

 

[ShenJingPoQi]

Stop talking to me about MODERN humans. I'm talking about our ancient ancestors. Those that lived 20,000-200,000 years. And stupid the fasting wasn't by choice. It was because life was tougher back then and our ancestors didn't have access to food all the time. In the ancient past humans lived similar to other animals and I don't know how much you know about the eating habits of most meat eaters but they also live on feasting and fasting cycles. When our ancestors didn't have access to food they entered ketosis. When they ate they weren't in ketosis anymore. Its that simple.

You can continue to cite modern people and their modern techniques thinking that's how its always been. I'll continue to watch national geographic as you said and learn about modern day hunter-gatherer tribes who still live today like our ancestors lived 20,000+ years ago before animals were domesticated. The pastoralists you cited are not reflective of how our ancestors lived for 95% of our history.

Sorry, that isn’t factual at all whatsoever.

Once you eat meat which contains fat and protein, the insulinogenic response to protein is negated and gluconeogenesis doesn’t occur. This is basic physiology.

Our ancestors ate a ketogenic diet period, whether they fasted or not, whether they deliberately ignored carbs or whether they didn't have access to carbs.

Eating Livestock and Fasting or Fast and Feast is a Ketogenic diet with fasting not the other way around. Your diet is more important fasting and lifestyle choices.

 

[⠝⠕⠏⠑]

Day 3

I SEVERELY underestimated how addictive sugar is. I should not be feening for dessert like a crackhead 3-4 days into a eliminating it from my system.
Um SERIOUSLY.
By the way, sugar is in EVERY FUKKING THING!
Even shyt you wouldn’t expect it to be in. Da fukk does meat seasoning need sugar for?!
I’m convinced it ain’t “keto flu”. It’s sugar addiction. Somebody once said sugar is like more addictive than crack. I believe it.

Okay, rant aside, I felt like some shyt this morning but I’m already down six pounds so that helped.
I also felt better after drinking a shytload of water. I’ve been averaging a gallon a day.

Today I ate:
-Premier Chocolate Protein shake
-Egg white breakfast muffins and two strips of bacon

-egg whites, chopped onions (sparingly), sautéed spinach, tomatoes, mushrooms. Put all ingredients in greased muffin pans, pour egg mixture over them. Season with salt and pepper. Top with a little shredded cheese.

-I also prepped Spicy Asian pork dumplings and cabbage to eat later on.
Basically, you need:
-head of cabbage
-miso soup mix, seasonings, bouillon, pepper
-hot breakfast sausage
-cauliflower rice
-ginger, green onions, garlic

1.) Cut end off head of cabbage. Peel whole cabbage leaves off and boil in soup mix and seasonings until soft.
2.) Mince ginger and garlic. Cut green onions. You only need a handful of all ingredients and mince them finely.
3.) Mix minced ingredients into hot sausage.
4.) Microwave frozen cauliflower rice and add to sausage mixture.
4.) Take hot sausage mixture and roll it up in soft boiled cabbage leaves. Place in casserole baking dish. Pour excess soup mixture over them and bake on 375.

They look like this but mine where browned from baking in their own sauce in the oven. They were delicious.

You can cut up the rest of the cabbage and cook it Southern style in left over broth as a side.

Imma take a nap or play Battlefield 4 b/c I don’t feel like doin shyt after meal prepping.

 

[Swagnificent]

Sorry, that isn’t factual at all whatsoever.

Once you eat meat which contains fat and protein, the insulinogenic response to protein is negated and gluconeogenesis doesn’t occur. This is basic physiology.

Our ancestors ate a ketogenic diet period, whether they fasted or not, whether they deliberately ignored carbs or whether they didn't have access to carbs.

Eating Livestock and Fasting or Fast and Feast is a Ketogenic diet with fasting not the other way around. Your diet is more important fasting and lifestyle choices.

You do realize you are essentially arguing that our ancestors never stored body fat. What sense does that make?

I'm done debating if you are going to ignore facts just to advance your silly diet.

 

[⠝⠕⠏⠑]

Day 4
Lost 10 pounds so far! Probably just water weight tho.
Feeling a bit better. Energy is still a bit low but not as bad as yesterday. Took some of your suggestions. I drink a shytload of water. Over a gallon a day. I also take a multivitamin. I’m careful to make sure I’m getting primarily healthy fats in and my meats are organic/grass fed. All veggies are organic as well. I’m also still only eating between the 11:00am-6:00pm eating window.

Today’s Meals
-2 slices of bacon and veggie egg white cups, 1slice of toast
I bought the low carb bread below.
Sola brand

-Premier Chocolate Protein Shake

- Bourbon pan-seared salmon and loaded salad (spinach, spring mix, tomatoes, cucumbers, French onions, sun-dried tomatoes, carrots, boiled egg whites, one strip of bacon crumbled. feta, peppers, 2 tsp of homemade Greek dressing or Olive Garden dressing.)

I will cook and bake more next week. Apparently the secret ingredient to keto baking is vital wheat gluten. That’s crazy b/c vital wheat gluten is what vegans call wheat meat and I used it to make meat substitutes. It’s high in protein low in carbs. Never even thought about using it to bake with.
Gonna make a breakfast pizza using this dough recipe from this website.
The Best Low Carb Pizza Crust | Mouthwatering Motivation

 

[⠝⠕⠏⠑]

My first day of keto

just had bacon sausage patty and eggs

I used the carb manager app which is excellent

What’s the app?

 

[⠝⠕⠏⠑]

I Lost like 28 pounds in 4 weeks doing keto (or course some of it was water weight). Eliminating carbs and sugar will make that weight fly off.

Yeah it’s been pretty damn effective so far.

 

[⠝⠕⠏⠑]

I lost like 60 pounds in a span of 5 months a few years back so I could join the military. I really didn’t have a diet, I just ate once a day & ran with a sauna suit on every night

I’ll be starting back hiking next week depending on energy levels. Hiking can be treacherous. You think u going for a nice walk in the woods. Next thing you know, u walking up a steep ass mountain.

 

[⠝⠕⠏⠑]

I lost weight on keto without eating a ton of fat. My fat is basically olive oil and sometime butter. Very rarely do I eat cheese. I did use to put mct oil on some of my food but my protein is always higher than my fats.

Yeah the only oils I’m using are olive oil, imported butter and avocado oil. The remaining fats come from the meats and I try to use high quality meats as much as possible and limit them as well.

 

[⠝⠕⠏⠑]

good luck. I know people who’ve done it—temporarily. They gained it back once they went back to eating carbs, but it could be because they went overboard.

Yeah I’ve heard some horror stories too.
Near the end of the 30 days I’ll look into gradually adjusting what I eat.

 

[⠝⠕⠏⠑]

It gets easier as you keep doing it. I wouldn't do it long term though, but if you get accustomed to it, and do it until the end of summer, and workout, you will lose weight and tone up.

That’s what we are going for!