A King Asks For Seconds & A Chef Obliges: Official Warriors vs. Cavs 2016 NBA FINALS Thread

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Skooby

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How close is LeBron to passing MJ for greatest player of all time?


When ESPN's panel voted on the greatest NBA players of all time at midseason, LeBron James finished in third place, behind Michael Jordan and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar.

Now it's worth revisiting that list after James won his third Finals MVP in leading his Cleveland Cavaliers to the first comeback from a 3-1 series deficit in NBA Finals history, giving Cleveland its first major professional sports championship since 1954.

What will it take for James to be No. 1? And after this postseason, is he already in second place?




James' résumé


Truthfully, whether the Cavaliers won or lost a game that wasn't decided until the final minute shouldn't change James' historical legacy much. His performance in this series was equally brilliant no matter the result.

If anything, James' ability to claim another championship trophy highlights how strong his historical résumé already was. For instance, at just age 31, James has four MVP awards and ranks among the NBA's top 25 in total points (11th), assists (18th) and steals (24th).

In part because of the expansion of the postseason, James' playoff numbers stack up even better historically. Sunday's Game 7 was the 199th game of James' playoff career -- just eight players have played in more. James already ranks fourth in career postseason scoring, third in assists and ninth in rebounds.

In addition, James' third Finals MVP (which, we should admit, is an award that didn't exist until 1969) puts him even with Tim Duncan, Magic Johnson and Shaquille O'Neal and behind only Jordan (six).

And there's even stronger evidence to back up the argument for putting James near the top of the list.





James' championships added


The goal is to win, and to give your team its best chance to win championships, and that's where James really has stood out.

By the championships added measure I introduced in January, James has put himself on the short list of the most valuable players in history.

Championships added uses Basketball-Reference.com's win shares to estimate how much a player helped his team's chances of winning the title each regular season and playoffs, also factoring in awards for a subjective component.

Because championships added emphasizes peak performance over compiling statistics with longevity, James looks great by this metric. When I ranked players in February, he came in third behind Jordan and Wilt Chamberlain.

Each additional season, including this one, gives James more opportunities. I estimate based on his win shares and All-NBA First Team selection that he added 0.115 championships during the regular season and another 0.24 during the playoffs -- in other words, this credits James for a quarter of a title based only on his playoff performance, and that might be conservative, given that he posted two of the three best Finals games since 1984 by the game score metric, both in potential elimination games.

There are three components to championships added, and James is moving up in all three: regular season, awards and postseason.

If we look at regular season only, James is fourth, moving ahead of Karl Malone:

Championships added (regular season)
Player Championships Added
1. Wilt Chamberlain 3.04
2. Michael Jordan 2.19
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 2.15
4. LeBron James 1.89
5. Karl Malone 1.63


Based on his four MVP trophies and 10 appearances on the All-NBA First Team (plus two more Second Team nods), James is now second in estimated championships added based on awards:

Awards championships added
Player Championships Added
1. Michael Jordan 3.05
2. LeBron James 2.83
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 2.72
4. Larry Bird 2.26
5. Shaquille O'Neal 2.07


And then there's the playoffs. Adding 2016 puts James atop the list of postseason championships added:

Postseason championships added
Player Championships Added
1. LeBron James 1.78
2. Michael Jordan 1.67
3. Wilt Chamberlain 1.53
4. Bill Russell 1.52
5. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 1.34


If that seems preposterous, remember that James has now played in more Finals than Jordan. And while it didn't always translate into victories for his team, James' best Finals performances have rated better individually than Jordan's best.

James also won his three championships in an era with 29 other competitors for the title, as compared to the relatively few teams Russell's Celtics had to beat out (as few as seven in some seasons, as many as 13 in another). Combining all three as I did for my rankings (the average of regular-season and playoff scores, added to the playoffs) brings James to 4.13 championships added in his career, decimal points ahead of Chamberlain and only a little behind Jordan.

Total championships added
Player Championships Added
1. Michael Jordan 4.29
2. LeBron James 4.13
3. Wilt Chamberlain 4.06
4. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 3.77
5. Bill Russell 2.91

There's still room for debate of the precise order of the top five. Chamberlain's score is still within the margin of error with James. If you favor contributions to winning over individual performance or believe win shares short-change him, Russell could be the pick for No. 2, and Abdul-Jabbar -- the leader by a wide margin in career win shares -- remains the choice of those who believe in longevity over peak performance.

But with another peak James postseason, at the very least this much can be said: There's nobody but Jordan who clearly ranks ahead of him in NBA history. And if and when we vote for all-time #NBArank again, James will be No. 2 on my ballot.



Can James become the GOAT?

Putting James second would leave only one more peak to conquer: Jordan himself, for the title of greatest of all time. From the perspective of championships added, Jordan is within sight. A couple of more seasons like James' standard would push him past Jordan for No. 1.

For some fans, that notion is unthinkable. For those observers, Jordan's perfect 6-0 record in the Finals, and the disappointing finish to James' 2010 and 2011 postseasons, rules out the possibility of a change at the top. But if we're looking for the player who has done the most to give his team the best chance, James is knocking on the door. And the discussion may shift quickly if James can surpass Jordan's career totals in years to come.

For most people, James probably needs at least another championship -- and maybe two more -- to get in the discussion with Jordan. Sunday's win gives him a more realistic path to getting there.
 

Professor Mac

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This hasn't been talked about but who are the AA coach's to win championships

Lue and Doc ... is that it?
 

☑︎#VoteDemocrat

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01.png
 

Spades Of Aces

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How close is LeBron to passing MJ for greatest player of all time?


When ESPN's panel voted on the greatest NBA players of all time at midseason, LeBron James finished in third place, behind Michael Jordan and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar.

Now it's worth revisiting that list after James won his third Finals MVP in leading his Cleveland Cavaliers to the first comeback from a 3-1 series deficit in NBA Finals history, giving Cleveland its first major professional sports championship since 1954.

What will it take for James to be No. 1? And after this postseason, is he already in second place?




James' résumé


Truthfully, whether the Cavaliers won or lost a game that wasn't decided until the final minute shouldn't change James' historical legacy much. His performance in this series was equally brilliant no matter the result.

If anything, James' ability to claim another championship trophy highlights how strong his historical résumé already was. For instance, at just age 31, James has four MVP awards and ranks among the NBA's top 25 in total points (11th), assists (18th) and steals (24th).

In part because of the expansion of the postseason, James' playoff numbers stack up even better historically. Sunday's Game 7 was the 199th game of James' playoff career -- just eight players have played in more. James already ranks fourth in career postseason scoring, third in assists and ninth in rebounds.

In addition, James' third Finals MVP (which, we should admit, is an award that didn't exist until 1969) puts him even with Tim Duncan, Magic Johnson and Shaquille O'Neal and behind only Jordan (six).

And there's even stronger evidence to back up the argument for putting James near the top of the list.





James' championships added


The goal is to win, and to give your team its best chance to win championships, and that's where James really has stood out.

By the championships added measure I introduced in January, James has put himself on the short list of the most valuable players in history.

Championships added uses Basketball-Reference.com's win shares to estimate how much a player helped his team's chances of winning the title each regular season and playoffs, also factoring in awards for a subjective component.

Because championships added emphasizes peak performance over compiling statistics with longevity, James looks great by this metric. When I ranked players in February, he came in third behind Jordan and Wilt Chamberlain.

Each additional season, including this one, gives James more opportunities. I estimate based on his win shares and All-NBA First Team selection that he added 0.115 championships during the regular season and another 0.24 during the playoffs -- in other words, this credits James for a quarter of a title based only on his playoff performance, and that might be conservative, given that he posted two of the three best Finals games since 1984 by the game score metric, both in potential elimination games.

There are three components to championships added, and James is moving up in all three: regular season, awards and postseason.

If we look at regular season only, James is fourth, moving ahead of Karl Malone:

Championships added (regular season)
Player Championships Added
1. Wilt Chamberlain 3.04
2. Michael Jordan 2.19
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 2.15
4. LeBron James 1.89
5. Karl Malone 1.63


Based on his four MVP trophies and 10 appearances on the All-NBA First Team (plus two more Second Team nods), James is now second in estimated championships added based on awards:

Awards championships added
Player Championships Added
1. Michael Jordan 3.05
2. LeBron James 2.83
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 2.72
4. Larry Bird 2.26
5. Shaquille O'Neal 2.07


And then there's the playoffs. Adding 2016 puts James atop the list of postseason championships added:

Postseason championships added
Player Championships Added
1. LeBron James 1.78
2. Michael Jordan 1.67
3. Wilt Chamberlain 1.53
4. Bill Russell 1.52
5. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 1.34


If that seems preposterous, remember that James has now played in more Finals than Jordan. And while it didn't always translate into victories for his team, James' best Finals performances have rated better individually than Jordan's best.

James also won his three championships in an era with 29 other competitors for the title, as compared to the relatively few teams Russell's Celtics had to beat out (as few as seven in some seasons, as many as 13 in another). Combining all three as I did for my rankings (the average of regular-season and playoff scores, added to the playoffs) brings James to 4.13 championships added in his career, decimal points ahead of Chamberlain and only a little behind Jordan.

Total championships added
Player Championships Added
1. Michael Jordan 4.29
2. LeBron James 4.13
3. Wilt Chamberlain 4.06
4. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 3.77
5. Bill Russell 2.91

There's still room for debate of the precise order of the top five. Chamberlain's score is still within the margin of error with James. If you favor contributions to winning over individual performance or believe win shares short-change him, Russell could be the pick for No. 2, and Abdul-Jabbar -- the leader by a wide margin in career win shares -- remains the choice of those who believe in longevity over peak performance.

But with another peak James postseason, at the very least this much can be said: There's nobody but Jordan who clearly ranks ahead of him in NBA history. And if and when we vote for all-time #NBArank again, James will be No. 2 on my ballot.



Can James become the GOAT?

Putting James second would leave only one more peak to conquer: Jordan himself, for the title of greatest of all time. From the perspective of championships added, Jordan is within sight. A couple of more seasons like James' standard would push him past Jordan for No. 1.

For some fans, that notion is unthinkable. For those observers, Jordan's perfect 6-0 record in the Finals, and the disappointing finish to James' 2010 and 2011 postseasons, rules out the possibility of a change at the top. But if we're looking for the player who has done the most to give his team the best chance, James is knocking on the door. And the discussion may shift quickly if James can surpass Jordan's career totals in years to come.

For most people, James probably needs at least another championship -- and maybe two more -- to get in the discussion with Jordan. Sunday's win gives him a more realistic path to getting there.

I think the performance that he showed in this finals definitely puts him in that MJ range (as some people don't want to admit). He definitely boosted his resume by beating this GSW team. The real test is to see if he can pull off a back to back or even a three-peat with this Cleveland team. The pressure to win one for the Land is now off him, so I expect things to get a bit easier for him. Maybe not physically, but more so mentally as he understands completely what it takes to win a championship and how to lead his team. If he can get a couple of more, despite his finals record, I think most people would put him above MJ. Time will tell I suppose. He has a good 4-5 years left in him so I think it's possible he can win at least two more.
 

MVike28

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Congrats.....the pinnacle of your miserable life is here ! :wow: Enjoy while you can breh because after this high you on comes down you'll still be living at your moms house and going to that 8.00 an hour job at wal-mart.

You dried bron nut from ya eye yet?:shaq:
why all the homo erotic stuff?

:scust:

clean up your imagination

:scust:
 

NY's #1 Draft Pick

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Mom's house & Wal-Mart, huh? Word? :skip:

Y'know I neva realized how much of a fukkin herb you actually were until now seein as how your only attempts to come at me were wheneva I was already in da midst of goin at it wit somebody else or by proxy of somebody else for whom you were pom pom'n on da sidelines for like an obedient hoe.

Dolo, you really are a fukkin lame. I'm goin to enjoy dis. :pachaha:
:patrice: Ya bytch ass just called me out though. U disappear for two months just to tag me and start selling out. That just means I've been on ur mind for a while. Now whose really the fukkin herb?

Foh scrub:russell:
 
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